Bosch Releases a Flesh Detecting Table Saw
Mar 19, 2015
Bosch Power Tools has announced the release of a jobsite tablesaw with "flesh detecting technology."
Each year, nearly 70,000 professional woodworkers, carpenters, and do-it-yourselfers suffer some sort of tablesaw blade contact. That’s a lot of money spent on health care and lost productivity, and a big burden on craftsmen and women who often wind up losing fingers. Back in 2002, Steve Gass revolutionized the power tool and machinery industry with the release of the SawStop tablesaw, and we’ve been waiting to see if anyone else could do it ever since.
According to Bosch Power Tools, it’s now been done. On March 18, 2015, Bosch announced the release of the GTS1041A Reaxx Jobsite Tablesaw. According to Bosch, the saw uses a proprietary flesh-detecting Active Response Technology, which rapidly detects human flesh that comes in contact with the blade and drops the blade below the tabletop. While this sounds somewhat similar to SawStop technology, Bosch announced a handful of other features that differ from the grandfather of super-safe tablesaws including a 60-second system re-set, and a two-shot cartridge that allows for two activations before replacement is required. And according to Bosch, this high-speed action happens without damaging the blade.
Look for more developments on this breaking story in the coming days here at FineWoodworking.com. You can bet that we’ll be working the phones on this continuing story.
Comments
No safety technology video is good without a hotdog
What is the retail price. I'm in the market for this.
Available this fall for $1,500.
Toolnut.com has it listed for $1,499.00.
I was hoping it would be cheaper than the Sawstop jobsite saw (which is $1200). The Sawstop has the added cost of blade and brake changes, but if I read correctly on another site (JLC, maybe), the BOSCH has to go back for service after tripping the brake a few dozen times.
Skidgel wrote:
"the BOSCH has to go back for service after tripping the brake a few dozen time"
I'd venture that anybody who trips the brake that often had better take up crochet.
I hope the inventor gets a nice fat royalty check from Bosch. I will stick with SawStop, the guy who invented the concept and has saved millions of dollars of woodworkers money and ruined careers. Shame on the industry for trying to block SawStop for many years because they didn't invent it first.
SawStop technology should be available on most saws. Industry's reaction has been similar to Detroit's initial reaction to seat belts and airbags... let the public suffer in spite of a life saving technology, in the name of higher profit.
A five finger full salute to SawStop!
Jerry Palmer
Maui
"Shame on the industry for trying to block SawStop for many years because they didn't invent it first."
As I understand it, the problem was that SawStop demanded huge royalties that would have raised table saw prices significantly.
This stance was not in the public interest, and perhaps SawStop should feel ashamed. A small royalty would still have rewarded SawStop for their ingenuity and made them filthy rich, while ensuring that safe table saws could be sold at a price average buyers could afford.
It all comes down to the fact that the most important safety "device" on any table saw is the quality of the nut that pushes the wood through the blade.
I'll be curious to see if SawStop mounts a legal battle to protect their flesh sensing technology. I understand the mechanism is different, but is the change in capacitance patent protected and is that what Bosch uses?
Finally some competition to the sawStop monopoly. It's unfortunate it comes from Bosch though. AFAIK they only makes portable saws so the chances of seeing their technology in a cabinet saw is slim.
The fact that the Sawstop has T-slot miter slots and the Bosch doesn't settles it for me. It tells me that Sawstop is a saw company.
This is great news for the industry. Looking forward to this technology becoming commonplace on all saws. It is good to see the free market responding....
I am excited to see another manufacturer developing this technology. I am a big fan of SawStop and have one in my basement. I find having saws with this technology is a no-brainer. Unfortunately, people have a hard time understanding how a higher upfront cost will save them money in the future. I work as a professional cabinet maker and my employer pays between 7% and 7.5% of my salary in workman's comp insurance. If everyone replaced their saws with with technology, the payback period would be short.
I want to add that the "change in capacitance" technology was around well before SawStop. I don't know how that plays into their patents, but likely not to be a problem. I think that technology is used for touch screens as well.
Great improvement Bosch ( and let's give the credit to SawStop for innovation.) If I didn't have a low-mileage Rockwell Unisaw definitely would buy this technology and recommend it to friends.
Looking at the root cause here. Worker makes a simple rip cut with the splitter, anti-kick back pawl, and guard removed. Then pushes his hand into the blade (without using a push stick).
Why isn't the worker fired on the spot for turning on the saw?
Shouldn't every employer insist that all workers are trained to operate machinery safely, and any use or attempts to operate machinery/tools with guards or safety features removed or defeated are ground for immediate termination.
I know that is policy where I work...Violation of Safety Policy are grounds for dismissal.
Does every mitre saw, radial arm, shaper, bandsaw also need this technology? Does the worker bear no responsibility for his safety?
Yes, it is not a perfect world. It is unlikely that employers and hobbyist can afford to replace all their woodworking tools with new models, but all can adopt a safety first attitude. (Note: did you stop using your seat belt when your new car got airbags? Will folks get impaled from kickback because you don't need splitters or pawls anymore?)
PS Bosch stage a different accident, one that doesn't involve removing all the guards. Otherwise it will be taken a tacit recommendation that those are no longer required with "flesh sensing tech".
The Bosch probably does have t mitre slots like the 4100 which I use. Great for a small shop like mine. I think you'll see better pricing when it comes out (sale prices, etc).
"Shouldn't every employer insist that all workers are trained to operate machinery safely, and any use or attempts to operate machinery/tools with guards or safety features removed or defeated are ground for immediate termination. "
They should, but they don't. I've worked for small companies for 17 years and very few of them force their employees to be safe. As a matter of fact, the company I am currently working for had a serious accident several months ago that resulted in the lose off fingers. They came out gungho about safety and demanding everyone to stop being so lax. They talked about having safety regular safety meetings and bringing someone in to give us first aid training. That was the last I heard of it and nothing happened.
You are right that the operator bears responsibility for safe operation of machinery. However, they do not bear the cost for their unsafe operation. We all bear that cost. There are also times when all safety precautions do not prevent accidents from happening.
I learned many years ago, that there is no such thing as an accident in a woodworking shop!!!!!!!!! Somebody did something "STUPID"!!!!!!!! So you want to buy a saw that will let you do something STUPID SAFELY???????
I have been a cabinetmaker and a clock maker for 50 years, my first table saw was a Skil saw turned upside down inside a wooden box mounted on sawhorses. My next improvement was a GilBilt table saw kit that cost me 19.95 and did the job of the 200.00 table saw. My current tablesaw is a 42 year old Craftsman 10" that I bought new. It doesn't have "T" slots, and if it did, I would take the washer off the end of the miter gage anyways as it allows you to do some stupid like crosscut wider stock than what you can safely handle..... The guard is laying in the bottom of the custom cabinet that I built before I even had the saw out of the box. Oh, yes, I do use a guard most of the time, one that moves out of the way without the need to take something apart. Its primary purpose is to keep sawdust coming back in my face........ There is no such thing as a dangerous tool!!!!!!!!! The danger is when that fool walks into the shop and does something stupid.. That 70,000 tablesaw injury statement smells like it came from a bull....
The number of jigs and safety devices that Fine Wood Working alone has published over the years, coupled with "COMMON SENSE" make more sense than spending a fortune on a tool so you can stretch the safety limitations of the human intelligence and do something stupid because you know the "hotdog survived"........... Ever since I turned that Skil Saw upside down in a box, I have dreamed of owning what at one time was the Cadillac of table saws- The Powermatic built by an aircraft landing gear company- in America.... At 80 years of age, I still don't have even a scar from my unsafe Craftsman tablesaw!!!!! My left thumb however is 3/8 of an inch shorter than the right, from my jointer when I tried to joint a piece of stock that I should have used a hand plane on. In other words, I did something stupid and tried to do something that common sense should have told me to not do....... But there are people who just absolutely have to have the latest development- especially when SAFETY is being touted as the reason to do so, NOT that it would do a better job.......... That Craftsman with steel leg stand, 2 high speed steel blades and a carbide blade cost me 250.00 and in the 42 years I have used it, I have replaced 2 motors and replaced the arbor ball bearings twice. It has cut enough board feet that if I got .10 cents a bd ft, I could buy that Powermatic and take a good vacation. I don't believe that I need protection from myself...........
Dr. Goss deserves a great deal of credit for not just his safety technology but also for building the technically very best saw he could. The accuracy, fit and finish of the SawStop is best in class. I have a SawStop and it makes me smile every time I use it and, yes, the safety circuitry does work. Shame on the industry for shutting him out and delaying this great safety improvement. The upside for us is the industry wound up with a formidable competitor and a higher benchmark for quality.
I'm not surprised that Bosh has emerged as a worthy competitor. I have a Bosch GCM12SD 12-Inch Dual-Bevel Glide Miter Saw and it has excellent fit and finish with its own patented Axial-Glide System. Let's hope the lawyers don't keep this competitor from again raising the bar for the remainder of the market.
Well done, Bosch!
While I appreciate SawStop technology and am glad they brought their product to market the inventor has taken a disappointing approach to marketing/profitability. Rather than licensing his technology at a reasonable rate, he has taken the "Ambulance Chaser/Better Call Sal" approach of calling everyone else reckless for not adopting his technology, trying to legally FORCE his technology on other manufacturers. Yes, he makes a great product and deserves to be rich for his efforts.
And I hope Bosch licenses their tech to Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, and everyone else. I'll buy a new tablesaw when that happens.
Dr. Gass offered to license his technology at rates beginning at 3% and then rising based on market share up to 8%.
The moral opporbrium here should fall on the manufactures who placed less value on tens of thousands of injured uses than they did on 3% of their price.
Keep in mind that Volvo developed the modern 3 point seat belt that we all use, and then opened it up for all automakers around the world to use it to save a huge number of lives. Attorney Gass wasn't previously a real estate lawyer or a divorce lawyer - he was a patent lawyer prior to putting together his system. It's pretty reasonable to infer that he was probably thinking that holding a patented safety system would box the existing manufacturers into a corner and that he could negotiate aggressively. (Its reported that he was negotiating up to an 8% cut of the entire price of each saw sold.) When the negotiations with saw manufacturers are said to have failed because of "a typo in a contract" and it's IP Attorney Gass negotiating with the attorneys from a major corporation, I don't buy it. Finally, Gass reportedly wouldn't stand behind his system and indemnify the manufacturers. If that's accurate, then he wanted the big cut of all sales, but wouldn't then take on the insurance/liability responsibility for his system. Suffice it to say, there is little indication other than PR from Attorney Gass that the tool industry "turned their backs" on him or that he was "shut out". He took a negotiating stance, and it didn't work out for him.
In the years since his attempts to negotiate payments from saw manufacturers, Gass has spent a lot of his time as a paid "expert witness" working for the personal injury trial attorneys who find injured people to sue the manufacturers.
In one recent case (http://www.chicago-personal-injury-lawyer-blawg.com/2012/10/product_liability_-_carpenters_fingers_amputated_by_ryobi_table_saw.html#more-1428) a guy took off the guard and wasn't even using the fence, "freehand" cutting laminate flooring on a saw, and injured himself - duh. The personal injury lawyers tried to argue that he deserved money because the saw didn't have the SawStop system (which I guess should have saved him from his own astounding choices) and there was Attorney Gass getting paid to testify as an "expert witness". The crazy/scary thing is that while they lost their initial case, they managed to appeal it, get a re-trial and actually convinced a jury to give the guy money...
The more I think about Bosch's approach, the more I like it. An inherent problem with Gass' destructive approach is that stopping the rotating blade and retracting it very quickly means, as Isaac Newton pointed out, a huge amount of kinetic energy gets transferred from the suddenly stopped/slammed blade out into the body of the saw, and smaller/lighter jobsite saws would be thrown up into the user. By only retracting the blade, not only is the blade not destroyed, but there's a lot less force being transferred into the body of the saw, making it much more appropriate for a smaller jobsite saw. (Of course, most jobsite saws are equipped with dirt cheap blades, so the cost of saving/destroying a blade is less of an issue. But the fact that the expendable cartridge will likely be cheaper for the Bosch system is another major advantage.)
One major problem that Gass' system has faced is that the sensor would trigger with somewhat wet wood. This led to many expensive false triggerings, and in some cases, led SawStop users to more or less permanently override the system. It will be interesting to see if Bosch has come up with a better sensor system, particularly for folks using it on real-world construction sites.
In the same ethics-before-profits way that it would have been ideal for Gass to open his system and offer it to all manufacturers without cost, it would be idea for Bosch to do so with their system. I guess today's business culture/climate is quite different than that of 1959 Sweden.
It will be interesting to see if the release of this Bosch system has an effect on the endless stream of lawsuits based on "I did something stupid, injured myself, give me money!" If the tide turns, and juries can be consistently convinced that the only acceptable saw is one with some sort of safety system, then expect the days of the sub-$1000 table saw to be gone. (Which will actually result in even more injuries as folks on construction sites concoct crazy ways to make various cuts because they couldn't afford the right tool for the job. The same "geniuses" who do stuff like "freehand cutting" on a table saw will certainly injure themselves flipping over circular saws and locking them on with the guard retracted, and duct taped to a post, or the like.)
I am always amazed with the comments explaining that if you knew what you were doing accidents wouldn't happen. They argues that new technology isn't needed. I hate to say it but is usually some old timer that is just so stubborn and refuse to understand the need for change.
I do not get why anybody would want to argue that a saw Co should charge you $3500 for a cabinet saw with the EXACT same design they had in 1970. The only changes made are cosmetic. It is just plain ignorance to think a table saw can't evolve like any other tool. Think who the saw mfg.'s laugh that they do not even have on staff designers or engineers. Yet, we have a tool that needs more jigs and other accys to operate that any other tool you buy.
NO, it isn't always the stupid young operator. No, not everyone grows up working in a woodshop since they were 5. What the Industry needs is advancements in not only flesh detecting technology but also ways to avoid hand to blade contact or closeness altogether.
The best part is the guys who argue the loudest have all had close calls and they know it. There isn't a woodworker out there who hasn't had an a Sh@t moment. Even odder is they supposedly love their saws and aren't in the market for one. SO WHY COMPLAIN???
I love that finally saw Co's are putting money into their saws and I hope we see a wave of advancements and lower pricing as that price increase is unjustified.
Wow woodworking can actually advance in technology, what a horrible day.
I think the motivation to have a tool with known dangers is the same as the motivation of owning a gun. We like the danger. We had to "grow up" to be allowed to use them. "Growing up" included being instructed and tested. We "proved" our ability to use these tools safely. Some of us are even proud that we can use these tools in ways that we know aren't safe because we are SO grown up and So good at what we do. Tell the truth . . . would guns be anywhere near as fun to shoot if they didn't have that "bang" when you shoot it? Of course not. That's the signal that they are dangerous. Almost all animals have a nervous system that will cause them to cringe at the very least if they are near a loud noise. Growing up means controlling those systems of self defense. And it makes us proud.
I've lost and mangled parts of fingers. It's not fun. It doesn't even make for a good story. And I didn't learn anything. I already had the knowledge. Control of my ego was what I was lacking. On other occassions it might have been lack of sleep, working in a hurry, distraction or any of many possible ways an accident is caused. Accidents DO happen. Only a male ego is strong enough to blot out that reality from our thinking. OK. A female ego is equally strong. But you get my point.
My concern with Sawstop was the blade destruction and down time. It looks like Bosch has resolved those issues. My next saw will have some type of similar device. I've gone right past "grown up" to "too old" to be playing games with my fingers. With any form of Russian Roulette there is only one looser and it's the one who's playing.
Better safe than sorry. Pricy but effective. Great for tablesaws. But, what about my shaper, router table, bandsaw, jointer, radial arm saw, etc. Will there be flesh detecting ability there too? It's soooo easy to get hurt building stuff. That's why we have OSHA and all those warnings that come with our equipment. But, the best determent to injury is always being aware of EVERY move you make.
I still use the blade guard, riving knife, and push sticks with my SawStop. The system is not a guarantee of no injury.
I don't see the blade being destroyed as a downside to the technology. You are looking at paying $200 at most vs. a minimum of $1,000 to many tens of thousands for an injury.
I'm not in favor of people receiving millions of dollars for using the saw inappropriately. But I find that this supports the reason to have this technology. You have people with 0 training buying a dangerous product. We all pay for the injuries.
If you remove the technology from the SawStop saw, it is a very well made saw. It forced the other manufacturers to improve their products and to include safety enhancements like the riving knife.
"Shouldn't every employer insist that all workers are trained to operate machinery safely, and any use or attempts to operate machinery/tools with guards or safety features removed or defeated are ground for immediate termination."
Yes, employers should do that. But from what I understand it's fairly common for flooring crews to do freehand rips at shallow angles with a tablesaw instead of a jigsaw. They do this for speed, and the employer doesn't know (or doesn't care) that it's incredibly dangerous.
"There is no such thing as a dangerous tool!!!!!!!!! The danger is when that fool walks into the shop and does something stupid."
Tools can be inherently more or less dangerous. By adding guards, blade covers, fences, shrouds, work-holding devices, etc. we reduce the risk. A flesh-sensing mechanism is just one more way to reduce the risk.
Sometimes people are fools--and it's not always the person at the saw. Someone else could startle them or bump them. Sometimes things happen--the board could shatter, or the power could go out in the middle of a cut.
TomDChi, check your facts...
"One major problem that Gass' system has faced is that the sensor would trigger with somewhat wet wood."
Perhaps this was an issue early on, but now you reportedly have to leave the wood sitting in the rain to trigger a false activation due to moisture. I've ripped pressure-treated lumber with a high moisture content without any problems.
"This led to many expensive false triggerings, and in some cases, led SawStop users to more or less permanently override the system."
You CAN'T permanently override the SawStop safety system. You have to go through the override sequence every time you start the blade. The reason for the bypass mode is to allow you to make a test cut on suspect material. If you don't see a red light during or after the test cut, the safety probably won't trigger when you run the full board through.
That said, I'm excited to see some competition, and I hope some cabinet saw manufacturers license Bosch's technology.
In my experience, the 'safest' tools in the shop are the ones that have caused the most injury. I have the utmost respect and attention for spinning saw blades and router bits, but I tend to relax more around other tools. Cut up my thumb quite bad on my DRILL PRESS because I wasn't supporting a piece of scrap properly as I was making shavings for my BBQ smoker with a Forstner bit. Pulled my thumb under the bit. Just a really dumb move. Stubbed and sanded a few finger tips on a stationary belt sander. Dropped a clamp or two on my foot. Bonked my head on a wood storage rack. It's lack of attention to safety that gets me everytime :)
Great news, but I could do without this feature:
"A near field communicaton (NFC)-enabled phone app offers Bosch REAXX Portable Jobsite Table Saw owners and operators another measure for ease of use. Through the phone app, the saw can communicate information from the onboard control system – such as number of system activations, servicing needs, access to instructions, how-to videos and other details. Also, the saw owner can use the app to manage who can use the bypass and main switches. This capability enables owners and managers to lock the saw as needed, which ensures that jobsite workers cannot bypass the safety system."
http://www.boschtools.com/AboutBoschTools/PressRoom/Pages/031815_reaxxsaw.aspx
Like many I've followed the "safer tablesaw" discussion for several years. The arguments seem to distill down to two basic arguments: 1) Woodworking, including using tablesaws, is inherently dangerous. People need to be trained and take personal responsibility for their actions. If someone gets hurt, it's his/her own d*#@ fault." Or, 2) Woodworking, including using tablesaws, is inherently dangerous. People need to be trained and take personal responsibility for their actions. If someone gets hurt, it's his/her own d*#@ fault. However, even experienced, careful people make mistakes, and why not let new technology help prevent a life-altering injury?"
To say "Tools aren't dangerous, operators are," is a silly argument. I do not know any woodworkers who pursue their craft without some kind of tool, nor any tools that do woodworking on their own (with at least a human designer, loader, operator, etc.). Woodworking is a tool-woodworker system, not one or the other. Given that even well-trained, experienced, conscientious operators make big mistakes, argument #2 is the one that make sense to me. We all know of illogical, large awards from juries to people who did obviously stupid things, but these tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
Bravo to Sawstop for creating a safety technology and marketing it aggressively. This is the American way - including the aggressive profit-seeking. I appreciate that they did so in a quality product and did not try to keep the price low by making other quality compromises. Bravo to Bosch for developing an alternative in the marketplace. This could have been done by an American company if we didn't have our heads in the sand This is what competition and free markets are all about.
While it might be nice of Bosch or Sawstop to give away their innovations, that's not the way a competition-based economy usually works. The marketplace will decide if these features are worth the additional cost, what the best cost is, etc. If history is any indicator, the cost will come down over time, other innovators will develop approaches, and this technology may be applied to other kinds of tools where it is useful. In 20 years we will have forgotten this tempest-in-a-teapot. I am sure there are still people out there who do not wear seatbelts when they drive. However, how many don't strap their grandchildren in?
To p#ss on these companies for innovating and marketing new ideas is just hogwash.
Interesting they chose to release the job site saw first, obviously seeing a hole in the SawStop lineup, which they have since addressed. I'd like to see a Cabinet grade saw. I had planned to buy a SawStop this spring (50th B-day present to myself), but I just may hold off.
I'm always a fan of competition. Bosch is a reputable name, so I will give them the benefit of further examination on the concept. It will be good to see how this saw holds up to scrutiny of the woodworking community.
FWW Staff - any indication when these will hit the Rocker/Woodcraft showroom floors?
I read all the anger on all the wood site sin regards to safer saws. If i read one more time how some old timer thinks it is unnecessary as they know better I am going to break my computer.
Any table saw improvements are welcome. Saw Co's have been putting out the same product with zero development for 30 years. How does Delta not put one dollar into R&D ??
Think of all the jigs and add ons needed to use a table saw and one has to wonder why they don't make any improvements.
Problem here is they are greedy and passing on all the development costs into the price. $500 more for the safer saw? Come on Bosch!!
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