Is this the last Reaxx Table Saw in the US?
The U.S. International Trade Commission's new ruling might be the final nail in the coffin for Bosch's Reaxx tablesaw
Feb 01, 2017
This Bosch Reaxx tablesaw was recently delivered to us to review. Here it sits on our loading dock. Is it the last of its kind? It might be. Yesterday SawStop sent out a press release announcing what would seem to be the final nail in the coffin for Bosch’s Reaxx tablesaw in the United States.
From the press release:
On January 27th, the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC) ordered Customs to exclude Bosch Reaxx table saws, and cartridges for those saws, from entering the United States, and the ITC issued an order to Robert Bosch Tool Corporation saying Bosch must “cease and desist from conducting any of the following activities in the United States: importing, selling, marketing, advertising, distributing, transferring (except for exportation), and soliciting United States agents or distributors for imported [Reaxx] table saws.” The ITC has now terminated its investigation against Bosch. (ITC Investigation No. 337-TA-965)
We are still waiting to hear back from Bosch as to what their next move is. This seems like an end to the battle but if anyone has the resources to keep fighting, it’s Bosch. We’ll keep you updated if and when we hear anything from Bosch about the future of the Reaxx tablesaw.
Additional Reading:
- US Tablesaw Safety Now on Par with Europe
- Understanding Tablesaw Safety Systems
- Video Workshop: Tablesaw Safety
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Comments
This comes off as a PR black eye for SawStop. Safety technology of this magnitude should be shared throughout the industry after a reasonable protected run in the market to recoup investment dollars. I would have to believe that SawStop has done that. And while SS appears within thier rights to hold the technology tight and protect turf -- they could come off as the “good guys”. SawStops loyal market share could be maintained by continuing to build a higher-quality machine with better features at a competitive price. Woodworkers/consumers win. Also, every finger lost to a guy who already owns a Reaxx, but can’t purchase replacement parts, will literally be blood on SawStops hands.
My understanding is that the inventor of the safety features in Sawstop saws tried to sell it to saw manufacturers but they weren't interested. So he started the Sawstop company. Hats off to him and he has every right to protect his patent. Even better that Sawstop got,the top marks in a recent review of table saws by Fine Woodworking.
The law clearly gives the owner of patented technology a window of time to recoup costs and make a profit. It is either 17 years from the date of patent issuance or 20 years from the date of filing (depending on when the patent application was filed).
I don't see it as a black eye for SawStop. SawStop marketed the technology to all of the major suppliers and they said no, they weren't interested. In fact, they even colluded to stop such technology from reaching the market place. If anyone has blood on their hands, its Bosch, DeWalt and Altendorf.
Then Bosch intentionally infringes on SawStop's technology. Bosch could have licensed the technology from SawStop but they choose not to.
I for one, am very happy with my Saw Stop. It's a great machine, plus it has wonderful safety features.
OSHA should make flesh sensing technology mandatory on all new table saws...it really is a no-brainer. Losing a finger or fingers is a life altering event.
Flesh sensing is not a new technology. It has been used on touch screen computers, mobile phones, light fixtures, and even water faucets. In my opinion, ANY tablesaw manufacturer who wants to use this technology should be free to do so without fear of patent infringement... and the sooner the better, as it is an excellent and necessary safety feature.
I wonder if SawStop would consider purchasing Bosch's technology. A SawStop with a mechanism to stop the blade without destroying it would be pretty great.
.........Sawstop are a bunch of totally greedy morons with no coscience..money is their god it seems lol.
As I recall SawStop tired to push certain laws that would help their sales. That alone was enough to torque me off.
I have no problem with anyone who wants this sort of tech but I have so many power tools that could maim me having this kind of tech in my table saw doesn't really seem to buy me much.
Be interesting to see what the future brings.
I may have to buy my dream table saw without this tech while I still can.
Sawstop produces a premium product @ a competitive price and they are somehow greedy? They are right in line price and quality wise but with superior safety. Yeah, that's real greed (roll eyes).
Like others said, Sawstop tried licensing their technology. 4 people created a world class saw after all the large corporations told them to take a hike.
If there is greed, it is by Bosch Group, a multinational corporation with a huge range of products. If Sawstop is David with a sling, then Bosch by comparison is NATO.
The sad part is that Bosch chose to try and circumvent patent law and spent more on R&D and lawyers than if they had simply licensed the technology in the 1st place.
The real question is why was the industry as a whole so greedy as to prevent a relatively modest cost add on from being adopted industry wide?
If you were thinking the Bosch, $1399 @ Lowe's, would save you money, think again. Even with an extra brake cartridge the SawStop only costs $1368, or $31 less. Yes, you could lose a blade to the Sawstop, but the costs are much closer than everyone thinks.
No, SawStop is not the bad actor here. On the contrary, this is a huge win for the average person because the patent system worked as intended and protected the little guy. If it wasn't for the patent system then we would never have had this system at all.
While I don't agree with Sawstop's efforts to prohibit any safety mechanisms except flesh-sensing technology, I do have respect for the patent laws. Since I doubt Sawstop has significant enough influence to sway a federal ruling without it having some basis, I'd say that the recent ruling is probably legitimate. For many years, no other company was concerned enough to put the time and effort into development of a safety device that prevented major finger/hand injuries except Sawstop. Maybe the other companies should have been more concerned 15 years ago. Mostly the whole thing is about profit and that is most likely why no one else wanted the technology. Sawstop, on the other hand, markets a high quality saw with the safety feature they developed for all these years, so why shouldn't they benefit from something they took a risk with. Not add a significant level of safety to the use of a table saw? Come on. I have found I'm less tense when I use the saw and, while still very careful, I enjoy that part of woodworking more. It's a safety feature which deserves recognition and not condemnation.
OK - SawStop has a captive market for a time. (Kind of like the big drug companies have before the generics are allowed.) But it would be unfair for OSHA to require flesh-sensing technology if their patent protection is interpreted so broadly. And another thing... it disturbs me to hear someone say they are less tense when using a SawStop -- kickbacks and flying chunks of wood can still do a lot of damage! 73
Perhaps the Bosch could be sold in Canada. I would drive to Canada to get one. The ability to stop the saw and not damage the blade appeals to me.
I work for a company that developed a great technology to drastically reduce viruses in food processing and reduce production cost. What did they do... shared the technology with our competition so our customers had safer food! When all you care about is money.... what do you care about?
I've seen both and personally, the REAXX is superior in most ways. You might escape "without" needing a bandaid if you are unlucky enough to try running a finger through a sawstop, and you "might" need a little round one with a REAXX. So as far safety goes pretty much even. The BIG difference is cost. REAXX does not ruin the blade for instance. Cartridges are double, so you get two shots rather than one. The cost of tghe cartidges are about 1/4 what SawStop replacements cost. In fact, during the recent deluge here in California, I saw a REAXX cartridge being sold. Apparently the owner blew it twice with wet wood. The cynicism of SS is astonishing. Imagine, the message they are sending is, "we would rather you cut your fingers off, than USE A COMPETITOR'S CHEAPER and SUPERIOR technology." I prefer a riving knife.
I am no patent lawyer, but if the technology to mechanically stop the blade is different (e.g., REAXX does not ruin blade), then I assume the trigger method must be the focus of Bosch's innovation. As an EE, I know that capacitive touch sensing circuitry has been around for decades and decades... Does someone need to follow the money here?
I am not a lawyer but I am an Engineer. The systems are different and the Bosch system looks me better... Anyway it is indifferent to me as I am not planning to go to a saw like that in the next few years.
I have looked at both saws and if bosch can make a table saw that does not destroy the blade then they are different in design,but not in theory?What diff. does make?
Seems simple to us here down under. If they both have spinning blades that cut wood are they not infringing on each other too. If a system for safety of woodworkers is invented and it will save both digits and potentially lives, I think they should all, yes, every manufacturer, should be forced to sell only saws that have some kind of blade stopping technology equipped as standard. To the bloke at saw stop that has created all the fuss, I believe that you should be ashamed of yourself for putting your greed and egotism ahead of the safety of your fellow men and women. You've made plenty of money mate, now shut up, fire your lawyers and stand up and do something right like Tesla have done open sourcing their technology so that All may profit. Stop fighting everyone in court so that you will be able to die old and alone with lots of money and let one of the most important safety innovations of many years be opened to all so that all may be protected. If not, then simply go count your money and hide your shameful face from the rest of humanity. Shame on you, never ending shame on you
Sadly, the basest of human qualities seem to be at play here. The big manufacturers shunned the little guy with a good safety idea for less than noble reasons. Steve Gass then built his own company and pushed regulations that would corner the market, also, arguably, for less than noble reasons. Now that he has made his money, he wants more and, I fear, is nursing a desire to punish the major manufacturers. The whole affair is discouraging and all parties have behaved shamefully.
The history of SawStop is long and clear. A lawyer designed the technology. When he tried to license it to others, at prices too high to afford, they balked. He then tried to get several US Federal agencies to mandate his technology BY LAW. That too failed,. All the while, he's doubling down with patents to exclude others ... not necessarily used in his own products, but to dominate the market. I don't know if Bosch has actually infringed, but SawStop continues to use the legal system, instead of the fair market, to dominate.
The SawStop inventor is very highly practiced in using exclusionary LAW to protect his market. Just when it looks like he might be gaining market share based on the merit of his invention he has to "Go Legal" and act like an unsavory lawyer.
I have been trying to decide which of the two saws to buy. I have the Bosch 4100 (before the riving knife). It's time to upgrade. I have decided that I can't afford a tablesaw injury. The two saws are just different enough that it is a tough decision. I guess this makes it easier.
As much as I appreciate the Reaxx, I have to side with Glass on this. Bosch tried to screw him and Glass made a great saw with great technology and turned the tables on Bosch. They should pony up the license fee and stop trying to screw Glass a second time.
I believe patents are good for woodworkers. How many people here would say there should be no patents? I'm guessing that few would. But when it comes to SawStop, a lot of people seem to say, "Yes, but...". You shouldn't have a patent, if you are a jerk. You shouldn't have a patent, if safety is involved. You shouldn't have a patent, if I think you already made enough money. You shouldn't be able to file new patents, if I already resent your older ones. You shouldn't be able to patent something that some other company might like to manufacutre later. None of these assertions make sense to me. How many patents is Bosch ready to give up? Zero. How long can SawStop keep up its terrible actions against Bosch? Three more years. That's right, the longer of the patents that the ITC dinged Bosch on will expire in three years. This is how the patent law is supposed to work. The patent grants an inventor rights for a fairly short period, usually 17 or 20 years. New patents get their own protection period, even if they are for related ideas. Have you bought a Delta or Powermatic tablesaw recently? They are covered by new patents, even though they've scarcely changed their basic design in seventy years. And even though they have resisted adding safety options year after year, after those patents have expired. It took them about fifty years to add a riving knife, and they still don't make a decent blade guard. Those are the companies that I consider in the wrong.
1st, I need to make a correction. The Reaxx actually costs $1499 @ Lowe's, not $1399 like I thought. The cost of ownership isn't exactly looking great for the Bosch, especially if the reviews @ Amazon are accurate even if they win an appeal. Do I hope those are just flukes? Yes. Is it likely they are? We don't have enough evidence yet, but my gut says the design is a rush job. Let's see what the folks @ FWW say about it.
Lutro has added comments that are spot on. Would you buy a new table saw without a riving knife or anti kick back pawls? I wouldn't as I've experienced these safety tools working when dealing case hardened wood. I know these saved me a trip to the hospital. But it didn't come to the US en masse till Europe mandated them. It made sense to simply import the European model rather than make 2 different ones. That's the only reason we get them in the US.
The timing of the Reaxx is interesting considering it came after SS introduced its own jobsite saw and more than a few contractors buying them. In other words, Bosch's core market is being infringed on and they got caught with their pants down.
Last, I've now met more than one person who've tripped the blade technology and all have walked away with a band aid and a story. My next saw will have some kind of this technology because accidents happen regardless of how careful you are.
The problem with making safety technology not covered by patent law is then who will develop the new safety technology knowing that they can not earn money from it like they could if then invented a new way of making a loose tenon? Existing industry has always been slow to implement safety technology, this really seems to be being adopted faster than say seat belts and airbags were in cars.
So I'm one of those people who assumed that because Bosch was selling the remax the legal issues had been resolved and I bought one. Nice saw, As I age and my attention span grows shorter I feel more comfortable with that spinning blade, knowing my fingers are safe then I was with my old powermatic. But now how do I find cartridges for it if this court order holds up? Will Bosch buy the saw back? Feel like I've been duped big time!!!
I can't believe anyone wants to make money. Evil B*st*rds!
I say learn to use a saw properly and follow the rules. Always do a dry run to ensure proper techniques and safety measures are met. Take a class on table saw safety. Than just buy a powermatic 66 and practice what you learned. Never work when tired, stressed, or under the gun.
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