STL311: Hold the line!
Bob Van Dyke joins Mike and Amanda to discuss dovetail layout lines, tambour doors, and designing to a specific board. Also, Amanda and Ben discuss the fading future of affordable table saws. |
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Question 1
From David:
Everyone wants a good tight dovetail joint. Older pieces often have drawers with mangled, gappy, ugly dovetails that were plenty strong but stayed hidden so appearances didn’t matter. Dovetails joining a case or are featured prominently might be highlighted more and hopefully appear more even and tight fitting. Now that we are required to post every dovetail joint to ig, many have raised the bar in keeping the highest standards for appearance out of every dovetail joint, seen or hidden. However, I quite often see beautiful dovetails that have a deep, gouging knife mark across the grain. Of course, the first step in layout would’ve been to strike a line for board thickness and the seat for your pins, then tails later. But once the joint is fitted and glued, why not take a couple of passes with a plane to tidy up the layout lines? This has to be done otherwise oil or finish will accumulate in the knife mark and highlight it in the finished piece. Is it just me who thinks that, if I am trying to show off some dovetails and make them look pretty, I should at least go through the trouble of planning out my layout marks? Or nobody cares about the ugly lines and I should keep quiet? The layout marks don’t have to be super deep, gouging marks and that’ll make it easier later.
An example where we can pick on Mike is his (wonderful) cover piece in FWW 303 from last summer where the case was dovetailed and these layout lines are clearly visible on the cover image. His case did have an 1/8” reveal (so the pins stuck out). I concede in this situation that I wouldn’t know how to clean off the layout line. Any ideas on how you would approach that challenge?
Question 2
From Tyler
I’m making a monitor stand for my computer. The carcass is cherry while the doors will be tambours made out of quarter-sawn hard maple, veneered with Karelian Birch veneers. I’ve been following this woodworker out in Poland for a while and he veneers his tambours with burls and there is absolutely ZERO disruption in the grain pattern. I’m assuming he’s not using a table saw, or bandsaw to cut the tambour after they’ve been veneered, but rather cutting the slats and veneering afterward.
Basically, I’m looking for speculation on how he or any of you would go about getting zero interruption in your veneered tambour doors.
Discussion on the future of affordable table sawsPlease take our two-question survey on affordable table saws here. From Ben: Credit where credit is due, ToolGuyd’s reporting on this debate has been extensive and relatively free of added editorialization. I highly recommend checking it out. If you’re looking for a quick catchup on the subject here is as quick of a summary as I can muster.
Newer items of note:
If you’d like to dive deep, the CPSC has a YouTube channel with the hearing available for viewing. As far as I can tell, many of the CPSC commissioners have been dumbfounded that other manufacturers—many of whom have more than enough profits to dedicate to AIM research and implementation—have done nothing on the matter since 2006. This line from CPSC commissioner Richard Trumka Jr. is probably the most telling of the exchanges. “Let’s for a moment indulge the other possible reality, the one you’re trying to suggest could exist, where you’ve been on notice for 20 years and you haven’t been able to fund a solution. I’ve also got trouble believing that one. You’re certainly not short on money you could have used to either license technology or develop your own. I’ll just look at one company as an example here. In May of 2022, Stanley Black & Decker announced $2 billion in stock buybacks. Their CEO said the buybacks demonstrate the company’s commitment to deliver shareholder value through disciplined capital allocation. Do you know what disciplined capital allocation means?” If you can’t get through that video (understandable) ToolGuyd has a pretty thorough recap here. The current (12/23) CPSC proposal can be found here. |
Question 3
From Bart:
When you have some scraps, what is your process for coming up with a design whether it is an experiment or an actual thing? Normally I start with an idea and figure out how much material I need. This starts with the material and designing to it. This is a hard concept for me, but I don’t know if it is because I don’t have enough practice or is it a hard concept.
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Every two weeks, a team of Fine Woodworking staffers answers questions from readers on Shop Talk Live, Fine Woodworking‘s biweekly podcast. Send your woodworking questions to [email protected] for consideration in the regular broadcast! Our continued existence relies upon listener support. So if you enjoy the show, be sure to leave us a five-star rating and maybe even a nice comment on our iTunes page.
Comments
I filled out the survey and I guess I have the following comments on the topic.
As I have aged (late 40's) I appreciate more and more the freedom to make optimal decisions for myself and leave the government out of the process. I understand there is a balance, but I think it is best to error on the side of allowing folks to make risk assessment for themselves.
All of the current offerings have mandated safety features and in some ways are safer than the old iron from back in the day. With the advent of the internet and endless access to information, even those old iron saws are much safer today than otherwise.
I would be much more in favor of ensuring people of access to information to make good decisions and learn how to use these tools safely as opposed to making them illegal.
I have two Uncles that had table saw accidents that left them wounded with the same tech that I have in my garage today (TS3650 ~ 500 dollar saw in 2005). The difference between their situation and mine is I did not remove the guards, I learned how to adjust the saw (fence toed out slightly, parallel to miter) and I use magnetic feather boards every time possible.
I learned all of this from the grace of having internet access and reading about the craft (The Wood Whisperer, PopWood, ShopNotes, and FWW subscription, ect.)
I chose not to spend ~3K on a Saw Stop in 2005....now 19 years later, I can more easily rationalize buying one but I am still ok with using the old tech. Not opposed and thought really hard on upgrading (especially after MK had his accident)
But for now this is the right decision for me and I don't want the government taking that away. If I lapse in the use of good techniques than that is on me.... in the mean time, I have developed 19 years of skill and enjoyment that makes life worth living. It's a balance and I hope people can respect that.
My first non handtool was a radial arm saw which in my opinion is much more dangerous than a table saw. I then graduate to a contractor saw and finally the cabinet saw I currently use. My current saw isn't a sawstop, and I have removed the splitter. I find if I use proper technique the table saw is very safe. I always ask myself if what I plan to do is safe. If not, I find another way. There are many ways to do things safer you just need to plan things out.
As far as cost, that is a function of circumstance. I got a contractor saw first because I couldn't afford the cabinet saw at the time. I also want to say that while you are right that a track saw can do many of the things I do on the table saw, there are also many things I do on the table saw that can't be done with a track saw. How about using dado blades, a tenoning jig or cross cut jig to cut small parts.
I too completed the survey. And, I second user-2997713's statements and opinions. More regulations rarely accomplish their stated "goals" and most always increase costs.
what was the name of the brass company mentioned in this episode?
Bob mentions using https://optimumbrasses.co.uk/ for the brass hardware.
Ben,
Great to hear your opinion of making table saws cost at least $500 as a safety concern. As you must know it is the poor people that are stupid and will hurt themselves, rich people do not have that problem. I started 12 years ago on a used cheap ShopSmith and have graduated to a Harvey. Luckily for me I never got hurt being poor and all. I also want to thank you for reminding me to cancel my FWW subscription. It turns out I am not wealthy, elitist or "fine" enough to be a member. I have every issue printed to date, I hope some wealthy person will buy them off me.
Wow. You've entirely twisted my reasoning in a way that absolutely does not represent my ideas and ideals. I'm well on record as wanting woodworking to be as approachable and affordable as possible.
Did you not say you thought table saws should come at a high price for the purpose of safety? I twisted nothing!
If that is your perception of my stance, you're wrong and I'm sorry about that. That's a gross oversimplification of what I said and not indicative of my views. I think you'll hear me constantly defend the need for affordable tools and I am always aware of the days that my wife and I debated long and hard about spending $100 on a plunge router.
"Unfortunately though I think there will be a future coming up where you'll you won't be able to buy a table saw under I'm willing to bet 500, 600, 700 new and at one point I went on record on this show as saying I don't think table saw should be available for under $500 because they are too dangerous of a thing to just be purchased without the weight the mental weight and anguish of knowing how to responsibly use a table saw."
Nothing said about anyone's ABILITY to buy an expensive saw. I don't think $150 saws are safe. Not my hands, not in anyone's hands. There are much more affordable tools and much safer methods of doing everything you're going to do with a table saw and it's not worth trying it on a dangerous saw.
This was a short conversation about a complicated topic.
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