Replies

1. 
   RickL | Jun 18, 2007 05:59pm | #1

   I wouldn't worry about the one versus three belts. One is plenty. If you look at the major makers of sliding panel saws they typically use one belt for 9 hp motors. I can put an 18" rip blade on our Griggio and it doesn't bog down or slip.

2. 
   woodwish | Jun 18, 2007 06:06pm | #2

   Having used an under-powered saw for many years before I got a "real" one with 3 hp motor I can tell you to go with the 3 hp model.  For $100 do not even consider the smaller one in my opinion.  The only problem may be is that the 3 hp one is probably 220v and the smaller one may be 110v.  Unless you are comfortable with doing wiring, or have a good friend that is an electrician, this can add to the cost.  I would still bite the bullet and go for the 3 hp though.

1. 
   bd | Jun 18, 2007 08:42pm | #4

   I second the motion on the 3 hp unit, esp. given the price difference. I used a PowerMatic 64 w/ a 1.5 hp motor for years. I had even converted it to 220 to avoid slow start ups & to help avoid bogging down under heavy loads. The difference between it & 3 is significant enough to pay more than the $100 difference you are talking about.

3. 
   Floss | Jun 18, 2007 08:40pm | #3

   Vincent,

   Forget the 50" fence. It'll take up more room than it is worth.

   A 30" fence is more than enough.

   A circular saw and some horses will work for the rest of the sheet goods. Much safer too.

   The money saverd on the shorter fence can be used for materials for some projects or even some table saw fixtures like an outfeed table or crosscut sled.

   Good luck with the new saw.

   J.P.

1. 
   woodwish | Jun 19, 2007 04:07am | #7

   I guess the fence is largely a matter of how much room you have.  I have the 52" fence on my Delta, plus I made a huge outfeed table.  I make a lot of cabinets and it is nice to be able to cut a 4x8 piece of plywood without worrying about having a person to catch it.  I have a one man shop, that big fence and huge outfeed table is what makes it possible.

1. 
   Floss | Jun 19, 2007 10:08pm | #15

   I made more cabinets as a finish carpenter than I do now as a furniture maker. So working almost exclusively in solid wood means I hardly push my fence past 24".As a carpenter I always used a table and rip guide for breaking down sheet goods. Much faster and safer to take the saw to the work than the other way around.I guess it is just personal preference.However for a small hobby shop I really don't see the need for a fence over 30". Small shops require some trade offs. And the amount of space those long(ridiculous) fences take up in my opinion is wasted on an amenity rarely used or more dangerous than some other alternative.Old habits die hard for carpenters. Need more beer to blur the past.J.P.

4. 
   Knotscott | Jun 18, 2007 09:14pm | #5

   I've used several 1.5 to 2hp contractor saws, including my current 22124 which is very similar to the Steel City 1-3/4hp hybrid, and I've used a couple of full sized 3hp cabinet saws (Griz 1023 and Jet 3hp). Undoubtedly the bigger motor has the mechanical advantage, and if the $100 isn't taking food off the table and you've got the electrical requirements available, I'd go that route in a heartbeat. You're not likely to regret having more power.

   That said, with good alignment and a good TK ripper, my 22124 has gone thru everything I've cut with reasonable speed, including 3" hard maple and elm, and most recently a single pass 11/32" x 2-3/8" deep dado in 25 linear feet of old wine vat QSWO.

   The belt is a ribbed serpentine belt with better power transfer than a standard v-belt, so I wouldn't worry too much about the single belt aspect.

   From a theoretical perspective, I do like the trunnion format of the Griz 1023 better than the hybrid trunnions of the Steel City model, but I haven't read of any issues with that hybrid format. The 1023 uses a more industrial grade design that's similar to Steel City's more expensive models.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/18/2007 2:16 pm ET by Knotscott

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 19, 2007 05:23am | #8

   Thanks for all the advice. I have the next month to drop in a 220V outlet and save a little more $...I'm debating now over the fence. I've got one person saying forget the 50" fence and another saying it's a great benifit.For the $100 I would spend on the fence I can buy a nice veritas guide rail setup for my porter cable circular saw (which has a nice freud blade in it) and cut up the big stuff that way. It might be nice to have the saw on a mobile base and taking up a smaller footprint. I remember some plans that invole putting folding table legs on a 4x8 of ply with 1" blue sheet foam (also 4x8) on top. That way, the cutoffs don't fall, and the blade only cuts up the foam, which can be flipped over so both sides are used, than replaced after it gets too beat up. The legs fold up and the whole thing sits against the wall. Also, I do more furinture than cabinets, so that would be a nod towards the 30" fence. thanks again everyone-Vincentps- any more opinions on grizzly vs- steel city? Grizzly provides more weight/ industrial build for the price. Steel city has a great warranty + support. Also, they check all the alignment and table top flatness at the factory and provide these measurements with each saw... this seems like a great way to avoid the frustration of returned parts/ tables that aren't flat, etc.

1. 
   Nathan Barnard | Jun 19, 2007 06:32am | #9

   Hi Vincent,Definitely go for the 3hp, if you can swing it. I upgraded from a craftsman 10" RAS to a 3hp TS and love the power. Also allows you to resharpen at your convenience, not because the saw can't pull the dull blade through the material. I looked hard at the hybrids but ended up jumping for a bargin on a unisaw. No regrets. I also have the 30" fence and find it just enough for my small space. I build cabinets primarily and being able to get 31.5" works ok, especially if you can control the sheet layout. I very seldom have to bring out the skill saw.That said, if I had the room I would get the 50". If anything it gives you a bit extra room to the right of the saw for temporary storage. P.S. Going to 240v forced me to put in a dedicated circuit for the saw. Now no more tripped 120 circuits, etc. That's a benefit.Nathan

2. 
   nikkiwood | Jun 19, 2007 06:58am | #10

   I never cut full sheets of ply on my TS, yet I highly value the 50" fence. I don't use it often, but it is extremely convenient to have that capacity (more than a 30" rip) when you need it. Also, the 3 HP motor is well worth the money.********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

3. 
   bladeburner | Jun 19, 2007 03:52pm | #12

   I have the 22124 w/ 30 rails in my garage shop and it does take up a lot of that space.

   And because I can't throw a 3/4" sheet of 4X8 around like I used to I bought a 96" JointAbility for the sheet goods.

   Joe

4. 
   mike4244 | Jun 19, 2007 06:15pm | #13

   Not familiar with Steel City, have the Grizzly 1023 right tilt saw. Never had a problem with my saw, own it about ten years or so. Go with 3 hp . As far as the fence goes, I moved the rails to the right of the blade. I can rip 38" to the right, zero to the left. In 40 + years I do not recall ever ripping to the left of the blade.This way you can use the shorter rails. I did not have enough room for 52" rails, otherwise I would have them.Try a google search for Grizzly and Steel City saw reviews,you'll find Grizzly for sure, maybe Steel City. I understand Steel City is a fairly new company, but with knowlageable people at the helm.

   mike

5. 
   Knotscott | Jun 19, 2007 09:41pm | #14

   Hi Vincent - Here's my view on skimming $100 here, or $100 there to add accessories like the Verita's guide rail or what not...Don't skimp on what you really want in the saw. For most folks, money for a new saw is likely much harder to come by than money for the accessories. Much harder to get a "do-over" on a saw than a gadget. You know your finances better than I, but if it's not causing pain to the budget, and it's a hobby that you enjoy, get the saw you want with the features you like. You'll get some birthday money or some other windfall down the road that you can apply toward the guide rail system. Besides, good tools hold their value quite well. ...how's that for justification?! ;-)

5. 
   dtraversi | Jun 18, 2007 11:19pm | #6

   No question- get the 3hp and stick with your 50" table.
   you won't be sorry you spent the extra $100
   D

6. 
   sledge | Jun 19, 2007 07:36am | #11

   Hi Vince,,

   Get the 3hp and the 50inch. I've used saws powered from 3/4 to 3hp and seen others powered to 10hp. The more power the better in my opinion.

   A good tablesaw properly equipped and set up does far more than just cut plywood panels.  I also cut plywood down with a good sidewinder but I always finish with the tablesaw.

   My saw has three belts and it's my belief that the purpose is to help prevent slippage and ensure a smooth running, vibration free machine.

   Ed 

7. 
   ThreeRiverstool | Jun 19, 2007 11:15pm | #16

   Hi Vince -

   If your not in a hurry, put the SawStop contractors model on your list.  It's due out this year.  If it is over engineered like the cabinet model, its definitely work a look. 

   I sold my Powermatic 66 Cabinet Model Tablesaw and upgraded, yes upgraded, to the SawStop Cabinet unit and have not looked back.  

   Sure the stopping mechanism is a terrific benefit, but once you see the engineering and the robust design, everything else on the market does not compare. 

   I suspect the final price to be more than the machines you are looking at, but so is re-attaching a finger or a hand. 

   Check out their website at http://www.sawstop.com. 

   I agree with two other subscribers - first, absolutely agree with the 30" fence extension.  If you are using a lot of sheet goods, you will naturally want capacity to the center of a 48" panel, which the 30" fence extensions does fine. 

   Alternatively, whenever I purchase sheet goods I have them ripped to within 1/8 of final dimension where I buy them so all that is necessary is to simply clean them up on my machine.   My lumber yard does not charge for small quantities ripped to near final dimension, but even if I had to pay a little extra, its worth it not to have to cart that piece home and deal with yielding it around a tablesaw.   

   Second, maximize your HP.  The cost of the extra HP as original equipment vs. buying a stand alone motor later easily justifies the extra cost.  Besides, I have another buying factor that I use - its call the "C" factor, for convenience.  Its hard to put a price tag on convenience, but you know when having it vs. not and when you rip a piece of hardwood or use a dado or molding cutter head, its sure is convenient. 

   Overall, I don't get caught up on the price as much as I used to when I first started cabinetmaking 15 years ago.   We all evaluate price as part of our decision making process, and economics is certainly a factor, but I found myself only to be dissappointed in the long run only to upgrade to what I should have purchased the first time. 

   Second, value.  My SawStop machine added nearly $1,000 over the cost of a new PM2000 or PM 66.  But I breath a lot easier when I use it and the overall features and robust design and shear precision built into it makes it truly enjoyable everytime I use it. 

   Good luck with your decision and keep an eye on those fingers. 

   j

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 20, 2007 11:19pm | #18

   I appreciate your insights and the info about the sawstop-I've actually looked pretty seriously at that saw, and if I still haven't made the purchase by the time it hits the market I will
   take a VERY close look. The place I plan to buy my steel city saw has the big saw-stop on the floor, so I can look when I drive up there.
   I imagine the smaller saw will have a similar build quality to it. So far my decision is based on other people's opinions, plus a balance of features vs. cost. My feelings about the manufacturers also plays a part. If I had the money, I would have the saw-stop cabinet saw already. I would be honored to support their company and use their saw.The craftsman professional table saw, which is similar to the steel city but with the smaller motor, has gotten a lot of great feedback. I have looked one over carefully and I liked what I saw (hehe). The steel city has the extra power, a better fence, and from what I understand a slightly better fit & finish... so IMO I can't go wrong. As for safety, I still believe that's mostly up to me. Even with a saw-stop, who is to say I wouldn't get hurt on the router table or even the hand saw. True, anything that can save a finger is a terrific invention, but I still think attitude and understanding of safe practices are much more important. vincent

8. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Jun 20, 2007 05:42pm | #17

   Morning Vince...

   No brainer on a 1 1/2 HP vs 3 HP issue...  3 HP

   I prefer the 30" fence as I use only a small amount of sheet goods and it takes less space. The 30" is very sufficient after I take a panel down on the rare occasion I use them with a circular saw and guide and IMO, and safer also single handed. My main task (98%) on a TS is ripping as I cross-cut on a SCMS.

   I have been over the Grizzly and Steel City thoroughly in the past 8 months and you won't get burned with either. If priced equally, I would opt for the Steel City as the trunnions are more heavily re-enforced and the over-all specs are a bit tighter. And a 5 year warranty again is a no brainer vs a 1 year.

   But with that said... I wouldn't hesitate to accept either saw depending on how big of a gap exist in the price. The Steel City titanium is an excellent ticket also as it almost eliminates rust maintenance on that large table surface. But the price goes beyond your "willing to pay" for that feature.

   Again... you won't get taken to the cleaners on either as both are an excellent value as I see it personally....

   Sarge.. jt

    

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 20, 2007 11:23pm | #19

   I took a look at the fence on the TS I use in my school's woodshop. I set it to 30", then 50"Honestly, I don't think I've every made a cut over 30" on the TS. I would feel a bit scared to do so without a helper. It really helped to see the difference in front of me, vs. numbers on a page. -Thanks for the ideas on Griz vs. SS. Hopefully I'll get a change to see both up close before buying.

1. 
   woodwish | Jun 21, 2007 03:34am | #21

   First time you make a cabinet and need to cut those side pieces 35.25" you will be glad you bought the 50" fence IF you have room for them in your shop.  I have never known anyone that had the 50" fence that wished they had the shorter ones unless there was a space problem.  I don't use the whole fence often but when I do use it I am glad I have every inch of it.

   With good shop layout and a big outfeed table you can handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood with no problem.  Having been around a few commercial cabinet shops over the years I have seen all of them have huge outfeed tables, so I figured it was a good idea.  Mine is the width of the saw and 6' deep.  I also have a counter the same height as the TS on the left on the other side of the walkway, which allows me to push and pull plywood anywhere I want to without trying to hold it up. 

   I don't make many cabinets (except when I built the shop and filled it full of them) but when I do the big fence was worth every nickel.

9. 
   jserena | Jun 21, 2007 02:01am | #20

   My biggest regret is selling my Oliver table saw when we moved to the midwest because of the very big $$$ cost to move it. I went through a 'new' 10" unisaw (too light, no balls) a Grizzly 10" (similiar) before settling on a Powermatic 66 with a single phase 5hp motor, never looked back. The motor cost a little more, but in 15 years of pretty heavy use I have only replaced the centrifugal switch once.

   My advice is buy all you can afford now, you'll appreciate it later. And, I have to agree with another post, a 50" fence is attractive, but very greedy with floor space. I would probably get a smaller fence and look at a sliding table option.

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 21, 2007 04:56pm | #23

   Out of curiosity, how did you sell that oliver table saw?Even though I have found several new saws that I would be happy with, I was really hoping to buy a nice used piece of equipment such as that sweet saw you parted with. The problem is FINDING a good used table saw in my area.
   (my area is bloomington, IN about 1 hour south of indianapolis.)I have checked again and again on the FWW classifieds with no luck. Either there are no cabinet saws, or they sell for almost the same price as a new saw. This makes me feel very secure in my investment, but I'm starting to think a used saw is never going to surface.My top choices would be:powermatic 66
   general international 3hp (i don't know the model #s)
   delta/rockwell unisaw or older model
   oliverWith all the folks buying saw-stop, you would think that used saws would be easier to find. vincent

1. 
   jserena | Jun 21, 2007 06:08pm | #26

   You really want to know? My big mistake was a golden goose to the cabinet shop I used to work for... it took 5 men, a forklift and a flatbed truck to move the behemouth.When we arrived in rural MN fifteen years ago I though there would be a wealth of machinery available, and there was; but almost all of it in completely unusable condition. The parts alone woould have cost more than the original machines.I can't really complain though, the P66 I bought 10 years ago is the best modern day equivalent I have found. There are still a lot of used machinery dealers out there, but the game has changed. Today they know exactly what people like us would pay for them, and bargains are almost impossible to find. Good luck, and let us know if you find anything.John

10. 
    wbfinewoodworking | Jun 21, 2007 06:13am | #22

    Definately go for at least 3hp. You won't regret the extra $$$.

11. 
    CharlieStanford | Jun 21, 2007 05:44pm | #24

    More power = safety

    Please read this disclaimer which is an integral part of my post:  Do not copy, print, or use my posts without my express written consent. My posts are not based on fact. My posts are merely my written opinions, fiction, or satire none of which are based on fact unless I expressly state in writing that a statement is a fact by use of the word "fact." No one was intended to be harmed in the making of this post.

1. 
   vincentedwards | Jun 21, 2007 06:03pm | #25

   I have decided, thanks to over 20 posts which all offer the same suggestion, to go with the 3 hp saw.My past experiences with contractors saws vs. 3hp cabinet saws had me leaning in this direction already. The contractor saw was a very nice model (general international) in good condition, but it was not nearly as comfortable and safe to use as the rockwell cabinet saw. I have not, however, used a hybrid saw. I've also used a 5hp powermatic IIII industrial tablesaw with a 5/32 kerf blade. It was very nice, but honestly felt too big for most of the work I was doing. Nice for cutting up large panels though. Thanks everyone for the feedback.

12. 
    seatoe | Jun 21, 2007 11:01pm | #27

    There isn't much I can add to this discussion. 3 HP is definitely the way to go. The reason for more power is to keep the blade turning at it's rated speed. With a 1-3/4 HP saw, blades will slow down and cause burning and a poor cut in hardwoods. Speed maintenance is necessary for good cuts.