As I was padding on the 2nd round of shellac on some door panels, I was thinking about how ForestGirl posted a few weeks ago that she had really learned to love finishing.
I, on the other hand, hate it more and more with each piece I attempt to finish. Here’s what’s happening:
I’m building a bookcase. There are doors on the bottom. I put a coat of BLO on the case 5 days ago. The same time I padded on the 1st round of shellac on to the floating panels of the 2 doors (had oiled it days before). So I have the case with oil, and the doors with oil and shellac. The thickness of the shellac is probably that of one good brushed on coat, but I wiped it on, maybe 10 super-thin coats.
The door panel was covered with fine streaks from the padding. It looked like I had carefully dragged some 80-grit sandpaper up and down it.
I sanded the door panels tonight with 320 on a sanding block, and then proceded to wipe on some more shellac. Same result.
I’m using garnet shellac at about 1.5 lb cut, my pad is a lint-free cotton “window cloth” stuffed with gauze.
Isn’t shellac supposed to level out? What am I doing wrong here? Let me know if I missed any details in my description.
When all this is done, I’m going to write a book called “How to finish furniture without an HVLP sprayer and/or years of experience”. It’ll be all about tung oil and wipe-on polyurethane, and how to hire a professional finisher to complete your projects for you.
HELP!
Kevin
Replies
I have only fooled around a little with Padding Shellac.
You know after you get it built up & cured you can rub it out.
Another way you can go is Brushing Shellac.
I was going to pad a chest because the chest was assembled I changed my mind to do a brushed on finish and used a Badger Hair brush .
Brushing Shellac is a different technique than varnish or painting but not that hard really very easy. The Badger Hair brush and the 1 1/2 pound cut is a must. The finish looks as if it was sprayed.
The best tool for finishing for me was Jeff Jewitts books.
check out this article http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/padshellac2.htm
Edited 7/24/2003 11:50:49 PM ET by Ron
Thanks Ron. I actually used that same article as my guideline. As for brushing instead, I'm a little more concerned about doing that right, since a test table a couple months ago had big shellac drips on the underside of the edge.
If people here persuade me to brush instead, I'm going for the good brush- a 2" "golden taklon" brush:
http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com/Brushes.htm
I've got to get some more feedback from people, but it's getting late. Maybe tomorrow will bring more help...
Kevin
Kevin,
First of all, Forestgirl just got engaged so she loves everything...as it should be...we just have to be careful interrupting her comments till sanity returns with finishing....lol
Second, stop with the mystical properties of shellac...its a great product which can be treated roughly and totally removed if need be..so relax. When I had my crisis with shellac (4-5 months ago) I went down to see John and he solved my problem and changed my relationship with shellac.
I had put some trans-tint dye in the blonde shellac (1.5 lb cut, applied with badger) and got heavy streaking....I applied either 4 or 6 coats and lightly sanded between coats. I cursed the fact that I should have stained first and then blonde shellac...and I would have no streaking.
John told me to stop with the coats of shellac and start rubbing out....which is different than lightly sanding. I can't remember if I started with 220 or 320 but sprinkled water on the top and began to sand hard..the whole top turned white. Brushed it off and applied another coat of shellac (blonde)...and repeated the rubbing out (several times)with the next higher grit, 400, etc.. The streaks started to melt and a nice looking grain started to appear...with successive coats I was filling the little pores and the top was getting smoother. John told me he has had to apply up to 18 coats this way sometimes to achieve the desired look. Anyhow, at any time i could have stripped the piece and gone a different way.
In your case you need more of a base of shellac. One 1.5 coat of shellac is not enough to work with....maybe you need 4-5 coats of base...but maybe you need to switch to blonde only until you have the piece under control.
I've been thinking more about the thickness issue after these posts, and I can't decide if I'm laying on too much or too little. Jeff Jewitt's article on padding shellac has applications going on one after the other, but I think even on my first coat I'm getting the streaks.
The thought of rubbing out the finish after each of 18 coats, on an 8' tall case has me hanging me head in surrender. I had avoided brushing because I was worried about all the detail moldings on the case, but wiping on 40 super thin coats of shellac is seeming a little foolish as well. Maybe brushing on 4 or 5 coats with a great brush will be better.
Can't spray it on. Don't have an HVLP sprayer and I'm not planning on buying one in the next few years...
Geeze, and I thought building up varnish was tedious. From the rigamarole you guys go around with on furniture finishes, I think I'll stick with varnish. It has it's faults, but unpredictability isn't one of them.
What is BLO?
Hey Boatman-
BLO= Boiled Linseed Oil
Just a quicker way to type it.
I have to admit, I had trouble with regular varnish the first couple times I used it, and this is only my 2nd try with shellac. The 1st was just a simple small table, and this case is a lot more complex...
I recently tried shellac on a table top and was horrified at what it did to the color of the wood -- accentuated the cool colors like gray and white streaks. Scraped it off and redid with varnish and that brought out the natual warm, honey color.
It was a commercial "canned" type. Is mixing your own any different?
Shellac is not a good choice for a table top
You know If you would have used a clear varnish it would have done the same thing. Almost sounds as if you think the Shellac will make wood look bad.
That old saying junk in junk out- You cant expect clear Shellac or any clear finish to make mineral stained water streaked lumber yard pine that should have been painted look like a million.
If you want to hide the colors in the wood you need a colored Shellac.
Maybe you will like reading this + lots of other finishes
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/shellac.htm
The first few times I used Shellac I did not get good results" Because I did not know what I was doing" but after studying about the techniques I have had great results.
Shellac is a Great Traditional finish .
No, I did use varnish after I removed the shellac. The varnish did not accentuate the mineral streaks, exactly the opposite, the streaks disappeared. My intent was to try shellac as a foundation coating that I could build up quickly. Then I checked in Bruce Hoadley's book and noted that shellac is a very poor moisture barrier. That convinced me to remove it.
I use varnish exclusively because I require high durability and water resistance. When a hurricane blows my roof off, it won't be water that wrecks my furniture.
You know on a table top you should use a harder finish like a varnish not Shellac.
But don't discount Shellac it is a great finish- Its easy-looks great- different colors-dries fast- no bad fumes - easy to repair - more good things going for than bad.
I know, I just threw some on to quickly see what the wood would look like with a finish on. Not gonna let my martinis wreck the dining table. Got 7 coats of marine on it now so momma can put her hot pots down.
I think Spar varnish is soft and flexible- They make this stuff called Rock Hard Table Top Varnish. I'm not sure I think its maybe a alkyd varnish?
Jeff Jewett has some Good Books on finishing that is well worth the money.
Just trying to help.
Try rubbing out the finish every second coat with steel wool. This will keep it flat. A 1.5 lb cut shouldn't do what you are describing. Get a scale and remix the flakes. In my experience, 3 or 4 lb cut is more likely to leave ridges.
Use a "rubber" instead of a pad and see if this helps. A brush will leave more marks.
Shellac is really very easy.
Regards,
Frank
Biscardi
I'm not the one having problems with Shellac-I like to use Shellac -I brush it on - And If I use a Amber colored Shellac- it evens out the color of the wood.
but you are right it sounds like he had not thinned the Shellac -but he is finishing a table top and should use a hard varnish.
A good book on Finishing is a real handy tool .
Right, finishing is a skill, and every type requires experience and knowledge. I've been working with varnish for 40 years and can put that stuff on better than most pros with a spray gun. But I can't say the same for shelac or laquer.
Gee wiz sorry did not mean to offend you
I just assumed that you were needing help because you were putting Shellac on a Table Top and from some of the other things in your post.
I thought maybe a book would help you out with Finishing I know the books help me I'm just an old brush dauber I don't know how to do any of that fancy spraying.
I just hope this has not discouraged you from trying Shellac again If you can Varnish with a brush you can Shellac with a brush. Its really easy and fast I like the amber colored Shellac It really makes wood look rich.
I'm guessing that the shellac you tried was clear and it really made the gray streaks stand out. But If you had of used the amber Shellac it would have been more of what you were expecting.
Are you done with the Table?
Sure would like to see a Pic.
No hard feelings
Ron
No, no, you misunderstood. Sorry, I tend to be tactless. I haven't tried anything other than canned shellac and I thought the stuff was awful. Even if the DIYS stuff is great, I can't tolerate a finish that has such a low moisture resistance value. Gotta get too many coats to achieve a reasonable barrier. Varnish does that in just a few, so that is what I stick with. Otherwise, my interest in shellac was just curiosity and I wondered why so many people use it.
Yep, the table is done and now I'm startin on the chairs. God help me, Im learning why not many people do chairs. See post next.
Here's my table made out of evil elm that some warned me not use. I've had no problem with it. 7 coats of marine varnish, no stain, and now waiting 2 mos. for complete cure before I wet sand and polish to a more semi-gloss finish. Trestle legs are hollow with a framed core to keep the weight down. My selection of grain probably left a bit to be desired as the legs turned out a little too gaudy.
Great Table
looks kinda Shaker Mission style I like it.
Man that finish looks Great also. I have never worked with Elm but bet its tough and stringer the grain looks good.
I know what you mean about chairs "I have a rocker I have made just about ready to for finish"
You need to post some pics. of your chairs
I keep trying to tell every one that American red elm is nice stuff, qualities similar to ash. In fact, the heartwood is exactly like ash an I have used them interchangably. I designed my own chairs, standard "K" style with a very tall and tapered back consisting of 2 uprights and 9 thin verticals - 3/8 x 3/4 only slightly rounded I got fancy on the design and now I got hell to pay trying to make it.
Ah, the life of an amatuer who paints himself into the corner. Prototype leg took me 4 days to make! BAck to the drawing board.
What are you using to finish the rocker? Even I wouldn't use varnish on a chair.
Frank-
Thanks for the tip- I've been trying all these suggestions and still getting unsatisfactory results... My shellac flakes are fresh and they're drying completely, and dissolved all the way. Maybe I'll thin it a bit more.
Thanks,
Kevin
Another link at Homestead Finishing shows you the wide variety of shellac "colors" available: http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/Shellaccatalog.htm
BTW, you don't need to "scrape" shellac off. One of it's major advantages is how easily it is removed using it's solvent, denatured alcohol.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, I just received my new Veritas cabinet scraper and had to try it out. Besides, it helped me get those tiny tool marks out that always show up AFTER you put the finish on.
Kevin, I would really encourage you to go to Jeff's forum and post there -- not that we geniuses wouldn't give you the right answer, LOL!, but since you're trying to follow his method and description, who better to ask?! He personally answers questions posted in his forum. Be sure to include all the info -- I noticed you used a different "cut" than his.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Kevin,
In almost all French polish methods I've read you start with a base of shellac (3-5 coats of 1.5 to 3.0 lb cut) before you start the padding. However, that is most articles not all....and I have read where Jeff, I think, starts at the top with his pad and squirt bottle and by the time he hits bottom the top is dry and ready for another coat.
You might want to take a look at the July-Aug. issue of FWW...she has a much faster way of achieving the results you desire....and the detail steps.
This is Red Oak with Amber Shellac Brushed on and has not been rubed out yet - I used Zinsser Shellac.
Here's an idea, discovered by me (and I am sure many others) when a spray coat did not level. Build up the shellac, brush or pad. And then, sand it just barely level, if need be only, and then french polish on top. The earlier coats give you the build that you would get anyway, just more efficiently. I spray, and then french polish on purpose now, on occassion. This is covered in Jeff Jewitt's book, and is a lot easier and faster than one would think.
Alan
Kevin
Shellac is easy the trick is put on thin coats-I think you are making things to hard- build it like the others say it may take 15 coats " Keep it Thin and you will Win"
If you have the shellac thinned to the 1 1/2 pound cut by the time you reach the other side of what you are padding -where you have started will most likely be dry enough to start applying your next thin coat.
There are serval ways to go about it - I have done this ( Brush on many thin coats let it cure" may take a week to cure" make a pad and only use alcohol on the pad just enough that it not wet but feels like a dogs nose. Then rub fast and hard not letting the pad stop don't stay in the same spot work all over. This will smooth out the shellac its hard work but will look like glass If done right.)
This pic. is a sample on Red Oak . I padded it on and rubbed with alcohol
Rember you can RUB IT OUT WHEN IT HAS CURED - If you decide to Brush it on use a Baddger Hair Brush . Keep the Shellac thinned to the 1 1/2 pound cut
Edited 7/25/2003 10:07:07 PM ET by Ron
Edited 7/25/2003 10:08:01 PM ET by Ron
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled