1 Factory – 3 saws – Are they the same ?
I was about to buy a General 50-175.
Then my father-in-law who has run a tool wholesaler that his father started since the early 50’s or longer told me that that particular General model is made in Taiwan and is virtually identical to the King Canada KC10TC/KRF1025 or KCGC/KRF1025, and to one of the Trademaster models – both of which are less expensive, but which are made by the same factory to the same standards. They even look virtually identical. Different colour bases – and the specs are all the same except for the fences.
Does anyone have any experience with either King or Trademaster as regards quality and after sales service ? ( I have heard on this website lots of good things about General) Anyone able to compare the three saws – or have specific knowledge of any of these models?
Any fence comparisons ? General is the “General T Fence System”, King is the “Tru rip” and I haven’t been able to get info on the Trademaster yet.
I am a D.I.Y. type who is rennovating an old house and building new kitchen cabinets but I am in little danger of becoming a force in the fine furniture market. Any advice would be much appreciated. My budget is about 900 CDN (600 US).
Thanks in advance for any insight.
Gavin Pitchford
Replies
First, I'll say that I don't know much about any of these saw brands.
I am curious how you know these saws are made to the same standards. It's possible, but it's also possible that they are made similar, not identical.
As a machine designer, I can think of dozens of ways to make machines that look the same, but aren't comparable in quality. Thinner castings, smaller bearings, or different styles of bearings, cheap adjustment knobs, thinner gauges of sheet metal, lower quality castings, spray paint instead of powder coating parts, lower quality hardware, loosening tolerances slightly can drastically reduce costs, or you can just use the rejected parts from the better saw that didn't meet their rigid specifications. Many manufacturers will build identical looking models so they don't have to junk parts that aren't quite good enough for their premiere line.
Do the specifications you are looking at include shipping weights? Shipping weights can be deceptive because they are approximations, and include the weight of the pallet, but weight is often a good indication of quality. Many of the things I listed result in lighter parts.
In fact, weight is a good indication of quality in many things. One thing I learned when working at a furniture store is the easiest way to judge the quality of a sofa is to pick up the couch cushions. Light cushions look the same, but they are made with cheap foam that breaks down quickly, and light weight fabric that quickly wears through. Also, the frame of the sofa will be made of hardwood. A good quality sofa will weigh 2 or 3 times what an identical looking sofa does. But, the good quality one will look good in 8-10 years, the cheap one will look poorly in a year or two.
Similarly, some of the saw parts may look identical, but one may be made of quality steel, and the other die-cast zinc. One will hold up to repeated dropping onto concrete. The other probably won't.
Sorry to run off at the mouth. Again I know nothing about these particular saws, but without being able to look at them side by side, I wouldn't believe they were actually the same quality, even if they look identical.
The Trademaster is not worth the metal it is made of. The King is not bad but the fence is no were near as good as the General T. The fit and finish on the General is very good, I would say that it is worth the few extra dollars. Lots of tools are made in the same plants but the level of fit and finish is different for each.
Scott C. Frankland
Good points, both of you. Thanks - and for the comparisons.
In reply to the first response, it is my understanding that the castings were identical as were the motors. I didn't check on many of the other things you noted.
I did a similar request on the "Breaktime" and some folks suggested that there were some firms or individuals that rebuilt Unis that may have one in my price range. What are your thoughts on a) whether anything I could buy used for 900 Cdn would be worth investing in and b) do you know anyone in South West Ontario who does the rebuilding thing ?
Thanks again
Gavin Pitchford
I don't know of many people rebuilding them Uni-saws for resale but I do know that you can find them used from time to time for bargin basement prices. I called about one that was $325 CDN but it was gone before I got to the guys house. The saw was in good shpe but had a 3 phase motor that would of needed replaceing to work in my shop. But with that said a Uni-saw at that price along with a new motor and I would of been ahead of the game. Go used if you can but make sure you know what to look for. You could get robbed if you are not careful.Scott C. Frankland
Its the getting robbed part I'm worried about - If I have to spend my time fixing the saw instead of cutting the cabinets, I might as well hang a noose on one of the exposed joists !Gavin Pitchford
What is the difference between a three phasae motor and ??? Gavin Pitchford
All tools that you would buy for home use are single phase. Three phase is more of a industrial use. You need a phase converter in order to run you saw and a converter can run you up into the thousands.
My advice is this. If you have the money and want a table saw buy new, unless you know what you are looking for when you buy used. The other option is to find a buddy that you can trust and knows what to look for in buying used tools. I know that here there are a few used tool stores that maybe a good way to go also.Scott C. Frankland
Thanks, Scott.Gavin Pitchford
Gavin,if you live in the Toronto area,check out Ford machinery in Richmond Hill, they service and sell new and used wood and machine parts as well as complete units,again new or used.GOOD LUCK.
Thanks - Have heard Ford are terrific - got a similar recommendation from Phil on the "Breaktime" forum. Gavin Pitchford
Watch out for Ford machinery. The guy is a con artist. I've been over there a couple of times to look at stuff, and every time he's tried to rip me off. When I found that there was a crack in the base of my PC 690 router, I called porter cable and they said take it to your nearest service center (ford machinery) as it was still under warranty. He wanted to charge me for a new base even though it was under warranty. I took it back to TJV in missisauga where I bought it and he looked at it, then gave me a new router. Joe at TJV is a nice guy to deal with, and it's worth the extra drive for me to get there. There is also a store called Tool Junkie in Stouville. I went to an infill making seminar there and met the owner. He seems like a nice guy and sells new and used tools. There weren't any steals that I saw there, but his prices were consistent with what most dealers charge.
Whoa - same store - 2 opposite opinions. Thanks for the feedback. Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow"
Sorry Gavin but idid not also mention that Ford also had a lot junk too.
A little insight about these saws. Stay away from them. You were right on when you said they were made in Taiwan, almost all woodworking equipment comes from there. Different companies actually have a Quality Control technition standing in the plant where these machines are manufactured. These are the ones who's equipment is substantially better that the rest. I know Delta and Jet do this but I am uncertain as to who else. I noticed that you mentioned Canadian money so I am assuming you live in Canada. I have been a woodworker for 20 years now and I have gone through quite a bit of tools. I burned out a Sears table saw in about 6 months once. Had a 12" 3 HP General (not the general international) and loved it but retired it to the guy with the "highest bid". I currently am starting over in a down sized shop and recently purchased , of all things, a 10" Ridgid table saw from home depot. To my amazement I must say this is the best $802.00 CDN(tax in) that i have ever spent. For an "over the counter" saw it is the best one that I have ever used compared to all of the others I have used in its category. Extruded aluminum fence, Lifetime warranty, emerson 1 1/2 horse motor. To sumarize it passes the "nickel on the edge test" hands down and doesn't even put a ripple on my coffee in the morning.
There's a little more to quality control than having a guy standing at the production line. Not too long ago, I posted a link to the ISO (International Organization for Standardization) requirements which must be met for certain rated factories. Unfortunately, I can't find it via the search function this morning, but will try again later.
The impetus for the post was that certain Grizzly tools are now produced in an ISOxxxx (whatever the number was) factory, and I was curious to see what that means. The requirements were impressive, and covered the entire production and quality control/follow-up spectrum from initial design specifications through problem-solving after shipment. Charles MC from Freud, Inc., pitched in with real-world knowledge of how incredibly tough it is to meet these standards and be able to cite the factory rating in a company's literature.
With all due respect, I didn't get much "insight" from the information you provided in your post. It seemed mostly to be a blanket condemnation with few, if any, facts to back it up.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 5/3/2003 11:47:07 AM ET by forestgirl
Jamie: The Magic # your looking for is 9000 its ISO 9000, A good many years ago when i went thru my Electricans training program I worked for a Steel mill/Mfg Company that had ISO program it was a Great Quality Control program very stringentregulations too bad the job was dirty & full of danger,but I survived & went from Electricians helper to Journeyman & on to getting my Masters license.. the Local Union hall loved sending raw kids there if they worked out & hung in for a few months they knew they could work anywhere...
ToolDoc
I'm unsure if the Taiwan factory has an ISO rating (they are up to ISO 9002 now, I think) or not, but have been assured by my father in law that there is only one factory in Taiwan that has the quality controls in place that this one does. ( He went on a visit a couple of years ago with several saw vendors and visited several factories - his assessment was that this one particular factory was excellent. One of the other people on the same tour was apparently the president of General) Anyway, the factory that makes the General and the King also makes a couple of others but I'm not sure which and I'm told most of them (including General) keep a rep on site who is responsible for Q.C. I believe the fence I ordered is made in North America.
In any event, thanks to everyone for their insight and input: in the end my Father in law was able to get me a good enough deal through his connections with one of their dealers that the General with the 50" fence cost less than any of the others - including the Home Despot special. (What Home Depot REALLY needs to do is build a saw that can compensate for the twists, cups, warps, and cracks in their lumber !!!) So it arrives later his week and I will report back on how well it works soon.
Gavin Pitchford
"What Home Depot REALLY needs to do is build a saw that can compensate for the twists, cups, warps, and cracks in their lumber !!!" Ain't that the truth?!! I don't even bother looking there anymore. Unbelievably bad stuff.
Congrats on your new saw!
I wish I could find my 2003 Grizzly catalog, darn.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Gavin,
According to their website, Mao Shan (manufacturer of Jet, Grizzly, Powermatic "A", General International, et al.) has a 9001 ISO rating. (Certified June, 2002.)
http://www.maoshan.com/iso9001.htm
Jeff
Thanks, Jeff. That reinforces my confidence in my father-in-law's assessment of their capability - and the factory: it can't be coincidence that virtually all the posts in this thread and the raft of archived items referring to Jet, Grizzly, Powermatic, King and General Int'l all speak to the quality of the initial product - and differed only a little as regards after sales service. Clearly this factory produces quality that can be measured using standard, repeatable procedures and sound Quality Control measures. And it sounds like a lot of us are using very similar saws from the same place.
Thanks for the research.
Gavin Pitchford
Edited 5/7/2003 5:08:01 PM ET by Gavin
Hi All,
Sunny hill has a new cabinet saw CT250 for $675 , does anyone has any idea?vn
Forgive my ignorance, but what is an "ISO" rating? Thanks
John
International Organization for Standards
Here's their home page:http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/ISOOnline.frontpage
...and their ISO9001 translated into "plain english"http://www.praxiom.com/iso-9001.htmforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thank you Forestgirl,
Very helpful, "Plain English" link very good.
John
A point of information about ISO. Simply putting together a program that qualifies under an ISO program (e.g. ISO 9001, 9002, etc.) doesn't mean you've got a great product or that your product should be purchased over someone not certified to ISO. The ISO certification process does allow for less than desirable firms to get the certification.
Once a firm feels they are ready for ISO certification under a specific guideline - say ISO 9002, they then "hire" an IO registrar to come in an certify that they are in complaince. While there is scrutiny of registrars by ISO, there is still considerable leeway in the process. I was a manufacturing consultant who helped clients prepare for the ISO certtification process and we made sure our clients hired a registrar who really knows the process - some of the registrars hired folks that we wouldn't let in the front door and we had great suspicion of their results as registrars.
ISO is just one part of a bigger picture. Many firms use ISO as a marketing tool and really don't live/breath the ISO philosophy. For example, you will read about 100% inspection which is physically impossible. No one individual is capable of performing 100% inspection and using several people to inspect the same item still doesn't get you a 100% inspection. Instead, true quality operations get their "processes in control" so that you have consistent end product (part of Statistical Process Control or SPC).
Toyota is a great example - are they perfct? No! But their quality, performance, etc. surpasses most vehicle manufactureres and they have been using SPC since Dr. Deming helped introduce it in Japan. That's why when I see that infamous picture in a Grizzley catalogue of a "sea of machines" and a lone inspector wandering around, I immediately cross them off my list. At least they should be showing pictures of how they have their manufacturing processes under control, not trying to catch mistakes before they leave the factory (ISO would invalidate this process).
Buying machines is a complicated business and I suspect the average woodworker is clueless. Hence, better to go to a reliable industrial distributor who stands behind their customers and products they sell!
That's why when I see that infamous picture in a Grizzley catalogue of a "sea of machines" and a lone inspector wandering around, I immediately cross them off my list. At least they should be showing pictures of how they have their manufacturing processes under control, not trying to catch mistakes before they leave the factory (ISO would invalidate this process).
I fail to see how such a vague, sweeping statement is of much value. Which picture are you talking about? Can't find it in my catalogue. As for their "manufacturing processes", Grizzly is an importer and distributor, not a manufacturer. They, like Jet, Powermatic, Delta, General, Bridgewood et al. have inspectors at the foreign plants to assure that their quality requirements are being met.
Perhaps instead of brushing aside a reputable firm, you could at least have contacted them to learn what standards they enforce.
Finally, although you'll find some Grizzly owners who are unhappy with the quality of their machines or the service they have received, you'll find the great majority of Grizzly customers (including many production facilities) are quite happy with the product and service they've received. Guess that makes Grizzly "a reliable industrial distributor who stands behind their customers and products they sell."
Jeff
P.S. I don't have a single Grizzly machine in my shop.
Thank you Jeff, I skipped going into my Grizzly solo this time. Although Grizzly doesn't always provide the best tool for the money, many of their tools are excellent buys and perform just as well as other brands with much bigger price tags. And, I certainly have had excellent customer service from them.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
There's an old saying in the business community - you make decisions based on data, not opinion - opinions are like noses, everybody has one. You and many others say "a great majority" of owners like this machine or that - where are you getting that info? I spend a lot of time looking at markets, products, etc. but I haven't found any customer satisfaction surveys saying Delta or Grizzley or General or whatever rates higher than another - you're relying solely on opinion. And if you search this site and others, you will find posts praising and dissing all the major brands and their models. I try to look beyond opinion by looking at the manufacturer, visiting folks who use a particular machine and most importantly, testing their service and parts operation. Many of my machines are not new - I tend to buy a machine that has an established track record, lots of parts available and someone who can help me repair it if needed. And I save money over the new models.
Grizzley is a manufacturer; they state they design their products and they are responsible for their quality, distribution and all follow-up for service and parts. Like many manufacturers, they have a choice to make or buy - a constant debate that goes on within most manufacturing organizations. For many years, the Budd company made many of the sheet metal parts for Ford and GM. Ford and GM specified the practices to be used, quality standards, etc. In other words, Ford and GM were using Budd's factory, presses and people under their (Ford and GM) direction to make their parts. The few articles I have read - and it is scant data, I admit - state that Delta and Powermatic are intimately involved in the off shore manufacture of their products - much like Ford and GM at Budd Company. I have no idea what Grizzley does - that should be part of their overall presentation to the buyer. And I can't find a 30 year old Grizzley in a cabinet shop - but I can find Northfield, Delta, Powermatic, Tannewitz. And that can be looked at as opinion, just as all the folks who are very defensive about Grizzley say how great they are - just opinion!
Well, since Grizzly was founded in 1983, I'm not surprised you, personally, haven't found one of their machines in a cabinet shop. Who knows what the quality of their original machines was, anyway. It's a relatively young company, and "what have you done lately" is a pertinent question -- ref what happened with Delta a couple of years ago when they were having all kinds of quality control problems.
As to defensiveness, I'm going to assume you weren't specifically refering to either Jeff or myself as neither one of us has demonstrated any symptoms, IMO. We simply reject the type of "vague, sweeping statement" as found in #42 above, where an entire company was condemned on the basis of a picture in a magazine or brochure or whatever.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
No I'm not being defensive - only asking folks to back up their comments. You are right about Delta - actually if you follow the history of these firms, Delta has had their ups and downs like Powermatic and others. The picture I refer to hasn't appeared in the last year or two in the Grizzley catalogue but the caption stated that all their machines receive 100% inspection - both an impossibility and more importantly a concern that they really don't have their processes under control. Maybe they do now, but who knows! Grizzly has its following like Powermatic, General, etc. have theirs. But when you really dig into why a person buys a power tool, I wonder if it's based on a qualitative review of sales literature and not as a sound business decision.
Grizzly was started as you point out in 1983 - Shiraz Balolia, a Kenyian entrepreneur decided he could make/sell woodworking machines cheaper than the ones on the market at that time. He is a very sharp businessman who has some patents under his belt (not woodworking machines) and has other consumer oriented businesses. Grizzly is owned by him which could be a problem - what happens when he is no longer involved - will it be sold? liquadated? asorbed into another product line (how would you feel if Harbor Freight or Laguna bought them?). Their long term future is unclear - at least more unclear than Delta or Powermatic in particular. Both have weathered a number of corporate changes and through all of it, they both continue to be innovative (after all, the cabinet saw really started with Delta's Unisaw) and carry parts for machine consider antiques. Will Grizzly still be there in 10 years? What will happen to it's parts/service? There are classic examples of major tool companies just disappearing: Magna tools in the 60's - bet most of you never heard of them but they had a very strong line - gone; Stanley power tools - sold to Bosch and all vestiges of Stanley (including parts) were gone within 5 years!
I don't wish ill on any business - and in particular a successful person like Balolia and Grizzly. I hope it thrives to the point that maybe it is acquired by someone like WHM who bought Jet and Powermatic or say General. But my many years of working with troubled manufacturers has trained me to be very cautious - particularly when I invest my money in what I consider a "lifetime" machine. And for me, the jury is still out for Grizzly.
Excellent point on being leery of Grizzly because they may not be around in a few years. A good concern if buying durable goods.
Years ago I bought a cordless drill. Jeppson. Brand was highly recommended, worked well for years. But, when the trigger went bad, it was impossible to get a new one. They'd disappeared. Had I bought a Makita, which I almost did, it would have only cost me $20-25 to replace the trigger. Instead, I ended up with a piece of useless junk. Finally gave up on finding a part, after a couple repair shops told me they could get one, then couldn't. Just bought a new cordless drill instead.
My choice-in-shopping habits have been based mostly on value for a moderate dollar, since my funds for WWing machines are very modest. I have a Delta planer, Jet jointer and (used) contractor's saw, and a Grizzly bandsaw. One reason I always consider Grizzly when facing a new power tool purchase is their ability to compete well within a given price range. Since these obviously aren't "lifetime" tools, the long-range parts problem isn't a consideration, but it certainly would be if I were buying an expensive cabinet saw, jointer or planer (for examples). Your point about sole ownership is certainly very pertinent in that respect.
It's important when people are pondering publicly about their tool purchases for the listeners to keep in mind that we all have different resources, long-range plans (or lack thereof) and priorities, and there are many different tool companies who can meet the various expectation levels well.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I too have limited funds for woodworking. Initially I bought what I could afford and it was usually low to mid line machines. But my work runs in spurts and I can place great demands on a machine periodically and ultimately I sold all those machine becasue they would hold up (or hold tolerance). So I try to anticipate my needs and start saving - I waited 15 years for a cabinet saw. I also continuously look in the used machine market - e.g. I found an early Delta jig saw (vintage 40's) with variable speed in mint condition for $200. Every year, I save enough money to buy one Thomas Lie-Nielson tool - last year it was the tenon saw. This year I'm looking at a rabbet plane. So when I spend my hard earned money that I have saved for years, I do want a machine that is a "lifer." And since I have time before my purchase, it gives me the opportunity to explore all brands including Grizzly (several shops and friends in my area have Grizzly - and it's a love/hate relationship - one friend swares by them while another got so disgusted that he took a loss and sold his entire shop full of Grizzly!). As I stated originally, buying machinery is a major investment and takes time to glean the best product for you.
Just a note on Delta. Check out their parent company's website
http://www.pentair.com
Of particular interest are the comments in the annual reports for 2000 and 2001 which express a need to "reinvigorate" their tool division. Guess that meant moving manufacturing to China.
Don't think that if Delta or Porter Cable continue to disappoint, Pentair won't sell them. Who knows what they'll be then? (Does DeWalt come to mind? Name's still used, but sure isn't the same machinery.)
Remember the original post? Check out this ad http://www.theoak.com/cgi-bin/swapshop/swapshop.pl?read=10330
Dave Koury
Jeff K - stay cool man. I've been around Grizzly for the past 10 years - both friends and local cabinet shops have them. I visited Thos. Moser cabinet makers last year and they have a few Grizzly. What I stated was that based on sales literature a few years ago, I was concerned about their processes. And I further stated that I don't know what they are doing now - call that what you want opinion, statement, whatever but I haven't heard a respondent that can state "Oh yes, Grizzly is in full compliance with ISO 9001 and is working to implement a six-sigma quality standard." So I don't know what they are doing.
If we relied only on the dictionary for the definition of a manufacturer, we'd be in a heap of trouble. Government jurisdictions (city, state, county, country, etc.) tax businesses and it can be based on what you do - are you strictly a wholesaler, an assembler, a baker, etc. Obviously if one group is taxed more than another, you would call your business something different to avoid extra tax (akin to you're saying Grizzly is not a manufacturer). Fortunately (or unfortunately if your circumstances are impacted), all businesses are classified using something called the SIC code (Standard Industrial Classification). It is used to determine what a company does - and large firms can have multiple SIC codes - but there is one primary code. And like it or not, Grizzly's primary business is SIC 35 - Industrial Machinery and Equipment; manufacturing SIC codes run from 20 through 39 - if you are interested, I can send you an expanded list of the manufacturing codes.
I agree with you about Delta and Porter-Cable - they've been owned by others and can dumped again. However, look at the track record of Pentair - they buy for the long haul so I have a hunch both companies will remain part of Pentair. They have pumped some money into both product lines so I think you will see a stonger firm result (with a stronger product line).
What's more interesting to me - and there are parallels to Grizzly - is the Jet-Powermatic-Wilton group. Remember Jet started in the same area as Grizzly with the same premise - provide a quality product at good value. Jet was privately owned and ultimately was purchased by the Walter Meier Holding Company, a Swiss investment company. They then purchased Powermatic and Wilton to broaden their product line - all under the name Jet Tool Group. Now, if Jet Tool Group wants to increase market share, one quick way would be to offer Shiraz Balolia at Grizzly an offer he couldn't refuse. And the Grizzly line would fit nicely into the Jet/Powermatic family. Carry the Grizzly name for a couple of years and then slowly transfer customers/products to the Jet or Powermatice brand. It could happen - it happened to Jet!
OK, guy, you gotta make up your mind! In your original post, you stated:
I immediately cross them off my list.
Now you're saying: I was concerned about their processes.
If you were guilty of overstatement in the first post, 'fess up. If not, then stand up for it!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Now I understand why many folks shy away from discussions! I have stated repeatedly two points: 1) Grizzly is an interesting organization, privately owned, has folks who love them and hate them; 2) I haven't found anything recently that validates their manufacturing processes, their quality program etc. - one of my posts ended saying the jury is still out for me on Grizzly - and I stand behind that statement - they are not on my purchase list; but I'm not close minded enough to totally ignore them; for a long period, I did the same with Jet - I'm still hesitant about some of their products but having met and discussed their quality, their engineering with their regional service rep, I have looked at them again. I'm not ready to do that with Grizzly but I will certainly watch them, keep my eyes and ears open and change my mind if I find a comfort in their operation. But even more of a concern is that it is still a small privately owned buiness (estimate of 15-20M annual sales - a small business by most standards) - will they be there in 5 years? I still have a Stanley portable plane and router that needs some parts to remind me of how a company can disappear. I suspect a big problem with this discussion is that I'm looking at this purely from a business perspective and you are looking at it from a woodworker's perspective - not bad but just different viewpoints.
Edited 5/15/2003 1:45:44 PM ET by EDGREGG
I really, really am not trying to drive you nuts EG, just pointing out specifically the sweeping statement that got you into this virtual hot water originally, which was:
From the other comments you've made since then, it would appear possible that you didn't really mean what you wrote (above). Such off-handed overstatements occur periodically in these discussion groups, and are frequently amended in later posts. All I (and Jeff?) are doing is "calling" you on a statement that, as written and in context at a given point in time, was pretty much just a flame.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
And if you read my reply to Jeff, I stand by my statement and went in detail about my comment. In a Grizzly catalogue several years ago, there was a picture of an inspector measuring something in a sea of machines and the caption stating 100% inspection. Having spent 30 years in manufacturing, manufacturing consulting, etc. that is an immediate red flag to me. From that point on, it's a "prove otherwise" for Grizzly as far as I'm concerned. And I've found nothing since to validate their quality practices so that's why I've not considered their machines. But let's assume they do meet muster - let's go further by saying their delivered product meets six-sigma criteria. I'd still be concerned about the fact that they are a privately held, small business - are they going to be here in five years. Offer Mr. Balolia the right price and it's gone!
Lots of once proud names are no longer around. Parks, Walker-Turner, Miller-Falls, and soon to be- Record. If WMH hadn't bought Powermatic, chances are they'd be defunct. Pentair is going to close Delta's Tupelo, MS plant where the UniSaw is made and move production overseas and to Jackson, TN. Who's to say that this isn't the begining of the end for Delta? Grizzly has created a strong brand and apparently a profitable one- who's to say it won't be around as long as Delta? From my point of view maybe Grizzly is in better shape right now than Delta. Delta has had some serious missteps in the last few years. QC problems with both American made and imported machines and parts/service problems when they combined their parts/service operations with Porter-Cable come to mind. Delta has also hurt their reputation with some of less than stellar "homeowner" imported machines they've marketed. It's the very thing that killed Black and Decker as a brand among pros and brought about the resurrection of the DeWalt name. Delta is aware of this, having split their tools into two lines- Delta Industrial and Delta Shopmaster but I'm not sure it's enough to undo the damage.
You raise really good points. It is sad to see the names you mention disappear. There are some companies who from their track record are in for the long haul. WHM who bought Jet, Powermatic and Wilton have deep pockets and are making the investment. They've lured managers from Delta and others to provide a quality product, good service, etc. Atlas Copco, a very respected name in heavy industrial/construction equipment bought Milwaukee a few years ago and you can see the bucks they are investing with the new products they are launching.
Likewise with Pentair - they are a large industrial manufacturer, not a household name but one who invests wisely in the long term. So they're investment in both Porter Cable and Delta are there for the long haul. Remember, Delta had some ugly times under Rockwell in the 60's and 70's. Wilke Machinery (who sells imports under the Bridgewood and Yorkcraft brands) was a major supplier of Delta in the mid-Atlantic and they got so screwed by Delta - parts, quality, etc. that they dumped the whole line and went with imports. They're back to Delta now - that's a good sign but they still sell the imports. I think the folks at Delta and Pentair are smart enough to put Delta in a strong position (based on their track record); remember Delta still has a sizable market share based on reported annual sales. And Delta has a number of factory service centers in addition to contract repair stations and a sizable industrial distribution base. That's a big investment and you can bet the board at Pentair (based on their track record) are going to "fix" Delta.
Grizzly is privately held so information is hard to get, but it was reported they had sales a few years ago of 15M - so let's say it's up to 25M now (actually a sizable jump!). That's still quite small in the woodworking machinery world and nowhere near Delta or Jet. If the owner is conservative, he may be financing growth through cash flow. On the other hand, he may be financing through debt; in either case, not enough money for "real growth." To make the leap into the "big league" (the size of Delta, Jet, for example), he will need capital - where that comes from will really dictate how far Grizzly goes. In a previous post, I said one possibility would be someone like WHM - providing the expansion capital would do a couple of things - eliminate a competitor, add market share to Jet/Powermatic and put some bucks in Shiraz Balolia's pocket (he's the owner of Grizzly). A less interested investor - on the other hand - could ruin the business in a few years. Who knows what will happen. As I mentioned in another post, I bought a mint condition, early 40's Delta jigsaw - and I checked - all the parts are still available for that machine! If I could be comfortable about Grizzly's future (assuming their quality is there), I would consider Grizzly, but as I said before, for me the jury is still out. And I've got my industrial supplier who is there to help me when I need it, not a "walk through" on the phone or a service person who will be in the area tomorrow. For a production shop, that's critical (I'm not a production shop, but there are plenty around me).
I really would like to see more indepth reporting on the tool companies - their annual sales, who's buying whom, etc. The more informed we are with good data, the better prepared we are to make a good selection for our shops!
It's going to be interesting to see how all of this plays out. I worry that Delta may have problems when they try to consolidate production and I'm curious to see which of the machines made in Tupelo get their production moved overseas. A Unisaw or a contractor's saw made in Taiwan or China may be a hard sell. Parts and service are important ........ I think that's the big reason you don't see more Generals around- lack of dealers. I've had good feedback from people I know with Grizzly equipment- they're on my consider list. It's a shame some of the old names are no longer around. The best cabinet saw I've ever used was an old Walker-Turner in a shop I worked at some years back.
Edited 5/16/2003 10:57:33 AM ET by jc
You're absolutely right - Walker-Turner had some wonderful machines - good, solid construction, heavy parts, etc. For that reason, I've been buying more old than new machines. I try to plan ahead (not always possible) and set my sights on a few brands and I usually can find a vintage machine at a very reasonable price. Right now I'm looking for a old, floor mounted disk sander, the 16 to 20 inch kind you used to find in patternmaker's shops - they're around but boy are they pricey! I work through friends and local industrial suppliers and "put the word out."
Not sure about parts for a Walker-Turner, but it sounds like you'd really enjoy one - search around, you might just find a lonely machine looking for a little tlc and bingo, you've got your ideal machine! Good luck!
An annecdotal story I forgot to mention. As with many brands, there is a love/hate relationship with their machines. Two friends of mine - one has a half dozen Grizzly machines - 20 inch planer, cabinet saw, etc. and loves them. He goes to their tent sale every year. He's a great testimonial for them. But he uses his machines infrequently - weekends, maybe a few nights for hobbist work.
Another friend had an eevn larger collection of Grizzly machines and he makes furniture full time - intially most of his pieces were pine intermingled with some walnut and cherry. He stumbled upon a great source for hickory and began making living, dining, bedroom furniture all from hickory. And he began to see his Grizzly machines were not holding tolerance, parts began to break, etc. He complained so much that Grizzly sent an engineer who spent the day with him; they replaced a bunch of parts but without saying so outright, the machines were not designed for such hard work on a continuous basis. So he ended up liquadating at a great loss his Grizzly inventory. He switched to industrial machines, high end Delta, Wenzig, SCMS, etc. and he's doing great.
What's missing in today's market is the old "duty rating." Black & Decker was famous for the duty rating - utility, tradesman and industrial. I would hazard a guess that the woodworking machines most of us are exposed to (Home Depot, Woodworkers Supply, Grizzly, and so forth) are either utility or tradesman. Few machines are really industrial rated. If I used a machine once or twice a year, I'd go for utility (assuming I didn't run it continuously). And tradesman is probably fine for most of us. But then my friend using hickory needs only industrial. It's a shame we, the customer have to decide what the duty rating is - and many times it's a guess!
Bringing back the duty rating is a great idea; it would save some disappointments. Maybe I'm just getting old but it seemed there was a time when most all tools were good. I remember my Dad's old (early '50's vintage) Craftsman tablesaw and jigsaw. Lots of cast iron and rugged construction. My first circular saw, a Craftsman, all metal and well made. Their current tools don't hold a candle to the old stuff. Just in the beginning stages of planning a new shop and there's lots to think about. New, used ..........
Tell the truth - you've sold used cars sometime in your life, haven't you?
Jeff
No - the only thing I ever sold was steel - domestic steel even when it was unpopular - and I watched as lots of folks started driving Honda and VW and Toyota; then VW opened a plant in South Charlestown, WV and bought our steel; then Honda started buying our steel and the whole issue of where things are made started to blur. I really try to buy American but I have to say my old Ulmia miter box (Ulmia does't make them anymore) is one fine hand tool, far superior to Stanley (who bought a lot of steel and was a good client) or Nobex.
Manufacturing and machinery fascinates me - sort of a hobby that was also a career for a while. And construction machines - old cable machines like P&H, Marion, Bucyrus Erie - another whole subject unsuited for this site!
I wish I had the time/money to tour the Asian plants used by everyone (all of them Delta, Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, you name it) and really dig into their processes and really try to answer the question, what is different about the Delta you made this morning, the Grizzly you are currently making and the Jet you will make this afternoon? Are you really held to different standards by each manufacturer or are they all the same, just cosmetic differences? It's a shame Asia is so far away - if all this was happening in say Tennessee, we could get an interested group together and do a field trip! Maybe one day, but not right now!
Edited 5/16/2003 12:37:54 PM ET by EDGREGG
Manufacturing and machinery fascinates me - sort of a hobby that was also a career for a while. And construction machines - old cable machines like P&H, Marion, Bucyrus Erie - another whole subject unsuited for this site!
Did you actually collect them? I have an uncle, a retired diesel mechanic, who collects bulldozers. Some he restores and sells, others he adds to his colection. Guess my aunt can be glad that he's not interested in cranes or ore freighters!
Jeff
No, never collected them - can't afford that but I am fascinated with the cable machines - mostly American made - that predominated in the construction industry from the 40's through the late 60's. One of these days, maybe - I've got too many other projects going on.
If you're ever in northern Michigan, be sure to see/cross the Mackinac Bridge (pronounced mack' in aw) which joins Michigan's two peninsulas, and, at five miles in length, is the world's longest suspension bridge. Cables were made on site - think they're 24" in diameter. As they leave the bridge, each cable enters an underwater chamber that goes down into bedrock. Here, the strands are gradually separated until each individual strand is anchored into a concrete wall. They've an info. center there where one can learn about its construction, which I find amazing.
Jeff
Sounds like a worthwhile trip - haven't been up that part of Michigan. On another subject, you said you have a Delta Midi-Lathe - the $300 + machine. How do you like it? I'm writing a grant to buy another lathe for a high school wood shop - most of the students turn small bowls, spindles, etc. and they have interest in pens/pencils. I'm also looking at the Jet - did you do any comaprison?
Thanks!
Ed Gregg
I do like it. Only and occasional turner (thus the midi lathe) but it seems like a very well designed and well manufactured machine. Only complaint is I find changing speeds a bit cumbersome. Didn't really look at Jet since my dealer had just gotten a bunch of these and had them on sale for a good price. (Since then I've noticed that although they look like they both come out of the same mold, there are some differences between the two.)
I Know FW did a review of mini lathes not long ago, but I can't find the issue #. Although the Delta did quite well, it wasn't the favorite - believe that went to Nova Mercury. Believe the General was also favored because of its weight.
Jeff
Thaks for the update. I do have the FWW issue on the midi-lathes - will dig it out and reread. My supplier carries both Delta and Jet and support both. Aagin thanks for the input!
Well ! Get involved in other stuff (like assembling a TS) for 10 days and WOW - so many new posts.
For those that still care... I promised I would report back on the General 50-175 and so here goes...
The summary: a great product. Very solid, well made, substantial and very quiet. Great value. Lousy manual.
The details:
It weighs a ton - well 300 lbs - but obviously enough that it should have been shipped on a skid. It may have been initially, but the skid didn't make it to my front door and the box was damaged, as was the Styrofoam inside. Nothing inside was damaged though, except for a slight "wow" in the metal on the back of the blade guard.
It took about 5 hours of actual assembly, and an equal amount of time trying to figure out what the #$@# instructions were trying to say and about 2 hours undoing what I had just done to do it again the right way! The instructions are awful. REALLY AWFUL. There are few photographs - all of which are underexposed - and an exploded parts diagram and a list of parts - which is also pretty fuzzy. Everything went together very well but it often took 2-3 attempts because the photos / explanations were so awful.
I figure with better instructions it could have gone together perfectly in less than 3 hours. If the bags of parts had labels on them that would help. I spent a fair bit of time undoing what I had just done in a trial and error fashion. Advice like "leave these bolts loose until you do the next step and then tighten" would have saved a LOT of time. Someone who had done this before would have been faster, I'm sure. (Someone less mechanical would have taken a lot longer)
Griping about the instructions aside, (and the bag of spare parts left over which I still can't trace) once I finally did figure out how to orient all the pieces, the saw went together beautifully. The only "not perfect" item was that one of the two table extensions (cast) was slightly concave at the joint in the center of the table(i.e. .002 of an inch ?). The extension is perfectly flush at either end of the joint and a fraction low in the center and I just couldn't jiggle it to line up perfectly. I don't think it will be enough to make a difference that I can measure. I put a steel straight edge on the main table and the other extension (as well as the concave one) and they are as flat as can be.
The fence is great. Slides easily. Supposed to be 52" - actually 54". Came out of the box perfectly aligned with the blade - which I'm sure is a fluke as the fence is made in Canada and the saw - as we have all been discussing - elsewhere. The blade is about .25 degrees out from the table. The 90 degree setting was also out by about .25 of a degree, but is now perfect.
I am going to investigate how to straighten the arbor, but for my first few projects the fence is the critical part.
The saw is VERY QUIET and VERY SMOOTH. I was impressed. My hand drill makes more noise. Seriously. Someone else who bought a General a week before I got mine had suggested that they had decided to invest a little extra and buy a link belt, but I have used the one out of the box which has a series of small "v"s cut in on the inside, and it seems fine, even though I still have to tune the path / motor angle a little. So I would say skip the link belt (really easy to change anyway) until you try the standard one. I won't be changing unless something changes as I use it more and harder.
The fit and finish are all exceptional: No scuffs or scratches, tough enamel, some kind of grease on all the parts prone to rust. The adjustment knobs are steel and cast, very solid and the adjustments are very smooth and precise.
So far I have tested it only on 3/4 inch ply with a Freud 10 - 60 ATB blade - and the cuts were dead silent and razor smooth. I'm actually set up temporarily in what will soon be the dining room and kitchen ( I hope) and the kids were watching TV in the next room - no one even knew I'd turned it on. Seriously. Very nice.
So net net - after 10 cuts, very happy so far with the product. If the instructions were half as good as the saw seems to be, my kitchen would have made itself already!
As we all know, the real proof will be over the next 5-10-15----> years - but so far, so good.
Thanks to everyone for all of their advice and thoughtful comments.
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow"
Sounds like a really nice saw. I've never seen one. About how much $'s did it cost you, and where did you buy it from?
My father-in-law is in the hardware distribution business and he acquired it for me. SRP is $899 Cdn on some kind of factory sponsored sale at the moment (i.e. if you grab now before the surge in Cdn dollar catches up should be able to grab it around $600. US). Lots of US distributors. Try http://www.generalinternational.com I think: they have all the data you need and links to loads of US based sources. You will see other posts in this thread that comment on the quality General offers.Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow"
If you want to get rid of the .02" bow, you could use a C clamp and tighten the bolt after you get it flat.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Remember, if you live in the Mitten, Troll does apply. lol
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Ah Jeff, I'm just claiming post #100 here, and recovering from ROFL about uncle with his collection of bulldozers.
I can visualise a line up of them -from D2's to D12's on the front lawn. Actually I am not sure if there is /was a D2Philip Marcou
I noticed you said you like Old Construction Equipment,Me too have I got a web site for you to visit- http://nesys.org/HCEA/index.html its the Historical constructio Equipment association Neat site Lots of old Equipment..Enjoy..
ToolDoc
Yes I am a member of the HCEA! Check out this site for precision models of all kinds of construction machines: http://www.toyline.com/bri/
Jeff: Why you soo Anti-Delta?/ Didnt get a copy of the Delta girls pin up poster or what??
ToolDoc A Proud Member of the Delta Club
Didn't think I brought up my anti-Delta sentiments in this string other than to point out the financial problems they've had, and the poor quality of their machinery during the Rockwell years. (It seems Rockwell managed to muck up everything they got their hands on.) But, since you asked.....
My experience with Delta's customer service has been very poor; so poor, in fact, that I'll never buy anything with a Delta name on it as long as I live.
My Delta 16 1/2 in. drill press isn't anything to write home about. Difficult to chance speeds; cover rattles; chuck wobbles and doesn't hold small bits. (I admit that I really like my Delta Midi Lathe.)
Closure of American plants is bad enough, but moving manufacture to China is an act tantamount to treason in my book. To toss American workers out on the street and relocate their jobs to a country marked by one of the worst human rights records on the planet shows that they care about nobody but themselves, and nothing but the almighty dollar or yen or whatever they're using now. To hell with them. (And I do mean that literally.)
Jeff
Jeff: I guess your going to tell me that Grizzly isnt using slave labor to mfg there tools. ya bet they use little Old Ladys who arent in church on Sundays..LOL..
Lets face the facts here..There are very few if any Power Tool Mfgs who are not now building there tools overseas or a foreign country..Why?/ because of the price of labor & yes greed= profit for them...
We all can go around & around on this but lets face its the trend & I dont see it going to change . I just noticed this past week that even Milwaukee power tools is going to start making or assembling there tools in mexico.am I going to stop buying Milwaukee-No because I feel there going to still be a Quality tool,Heck of a lot better than Dewalt will ever be. Now if you want to talk about Very poor service just mention Dewalt, I have had nothing but service that sux from them...
ToolDoc
I guess your going to tell me that Grizzly isnt using slave labor to mfg there tools
In fact, they aren't. (Although I continue to insist that Grizzly isn't a manufacturer.) Suggest you check the State Department's page on human rights in Taiwan (where Grizzly's machines are made). Certainly not a perfect record, but they've made significant progress, especially in the areas of workers rights and fair wages. Can't say the same about The Peoples' Republic of China (where more and more Delta machines are being made).
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eap/8294.htm
Yes, you can stop buying Milwaukee. If more people cared, stopped buying these products, and told the companies why, we'd see this nonsense stop.
Jeff
NO Jeff I'll just stop buying Dewalt.. $505.00 a month Wow Taiwan is sure spoiling those workers ,guess its better than a few fish heads & some Rice..
ToolDoc
I agree that $550 isn't a lot, but you accused Grizzly of using slave labor. (Be careful when you make such accusations; they could be libelous.) Also bear in mind that just because the average worker there earns that amount, it doesn't mean that's what Mao Shan pays their employees.
Suggest you read this and see that the differences between Taiwan and Red China are enormous.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eap/8289.htm
Jeff
Edited 5/18/2003 1:31:27 AM ET by Jeff K
OK Jeff : I get the point, Not going to keep discussion going cause I have a policy of "Not Feeding The Trolls"...
ToolDoc
Let's see... You make unknowledgeable, unsubstantiated, calumnious statements then call me a "troll". Interesting evaluation.
HA ALL you Do is provoke everyone who posts on here!!
Now guys, chill, set yourselves down and have a beer. Man, I go away for a weekend of fun and jubilation and check in to see y'all gathered around a fire hydrant! (Oh, jeez, now I'm gonna be in trouble!)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG: (Oh, jeez, now I'm gonna be in trouble!) . . .
No, FG, I think you nailed it pretty well.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Sorry about that FG. Guess it's no excuse, but when folks resort to name calling it irks me a bit.
Hope you had a fun and relaxing weekend. Had nearly 100 people here yesterday for my niece's college graduation party. Recommend others have small homes with small yards to avoid this situation.
Jeff
$505/month is low compared with what people make in the US but it's probably a lot more than others in Taiwan/Mainland China are making. There's no reason to compare their wage with any place other than the local area. Why do you think all of this stuff is being made there in the first place?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
We may see this 'nonsense' stop, but do you really want to pay $800 for a contractor's saw or $3000 for a Unisaw? There's no way the same price points could be hit with the labor prices in this country.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Not sure if you're aware of this, but Milwaukee has some of their tools made in the same plants in Taiwan as the others.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Wow! How do I respond to all this? Guess I'll just hit a few points.
If you want to call a company that does not build but does import and distribute machinery a manufacturer, guess that's your prerogative. Do keep in mind, however, the OED and other English dictionaries disagree with your definition.
To say you can't find a 30 year old Grizzly in a cabinet shop is an absurdity, since Grizzly, as you well know, is a 20 year old company.
Do you realize that you first state you make decisions based on data, not opinion, then go on to say there is no such data. ???
I have no idea what Grizzley (sic.) does. Yet you still have strong opinions (you know, those things that are like noses) about Grizzly.
And that can be looked at as opinion... Oops! There's that nose thing again.
Northfield, Tannewitz. You forgot Oliver. Come on, now you're talking about an entirely different class of machine.
Delta. Couldn't give me one that was made in the Rockwell period. Shake and rattle like a '62 Rambler running over washboard.
Come on now. The truth is you don't know a damned thing about Grizzly. Admit it.
Jeff
Careful on buying into the ISO stuff. Its mostly smoke and mirrors. Getting an ISO rating is really, really easy. All ISO says is that you follow the procedures you have. Nothing more, nothing less. So if you follow the procedures you have written down, you don't really need an ISO rating. If you don't follow procedures, then you can do enough work to satisfy the auditor, but your product quality will still be poor.
The company quality procedures can be as simple as "we look at the crate before it leaves the dock." It can be as complicated as specifying an exact size, style, and color of packing material (don't laugh - this happens all too often). My favorite was a requirement that shipping invoices had to be filled out with a particular brand and hardness of pencil - especially tough when we went to computer generated invoices...
My qualifications: 25 years in aerospace and 15 year fighting the ISO jauggernaut.
I would not call ISO just smoke and mirrors. Most people have the impression that ISO ratings are about quality. They are more about traceability. "Say what you do then do what you say" is the catch phrase you will hear when dealing with ISO. In the automotive industry if you are making parts for any of the big three you must be QS 9000 certified. This is more stringent than ISO but follows the same style of guidelines. Before QS and ISO when a company had a recall it was often hundreds of thousands of product. Now a recall is not only less apt to happen but when it does it may only be a few hundred or less. This is possible because with these standards in place something as simple as a nut that stripped it's threads to easily can be traced all the way back to the batch of steel it was made from. Traceability isolates the problem faster, and to less product, thus saving the company and therefore the consumer time and money. ISO does not ensure quality but it does ensure consistency of product. This is why three or four different brands of saw can come down the same assembly line, all have different quality levels, and the manufacturer can have an ISO rating.
As an aside, the number in the ISO rating does not denote a progression of standards, 9001 more stringent than 9000, but rather shows what field the rating is in, such as auto builders may be ISO 9000 while the trucking firm that delivers them may be ISO 9001.
This is just an overview of the system with a few examples. The basic idea here is that an ISO rating does not necessarily mean it is a high quality product. It does mean if there is a flaw it can be traced to see how much other product is affected and isolate it for correction. I worked in Quality Control for a company that went from groundbreaking to QS 9000 certified in less than three years which gave me a pretty good understanding of the process. I had to not only do internal audits all the time but work with auditors from the auto industry and certification auditors. You had to re-certify every 6mo. Most companies feel it's ambitious to obtain an ISO rating in less than ten yrs.
Sorry this is so long winded but wanted to shed a little light on the subject. The Professional Termite
That was very helpful info. I've especially been wondering what the 900x numbers meant. It was pretty apparent reading the "plain English" version of the standards that they aren't directed at "ultimate quality" but at quality control, which is, as you say, very good still for us consumers. It's up to us to figure out which quality standards meet our needs.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I can't speak for the automotive industry - but in aerospace - the airplanes and engines you and your family fly around on - ISO means little. Its sort of the emperor has no clothes issue - no one wants to admit its a fraud. It doesn't help your quality a bit - if you had a quality mindset before ISO, ISO won't improve it. Similiarly, if you didn't have quality built into every activity, ISO won't correct it.
What ISO did do (the concept started in Europe - if you didn't have an ISO rating you couldn't do business with European governments) was create an industry for people to come in and audit your procedures. As you've been through ISO audits (I went through them annually) you know they really never get to issues of substance. In addition, it took the ISO industry almost 10 years before they agreed on what ISO meant. There was a period in the late 80's through early 90's where getting an ISO approval didn't mean anything unless it was from an approved ISO auditor - and each country refused to accept another country's auditors.
I also don't buy into the argument that it improves traceability. In aerospace almost everything is traceable back to the original ore that came out of the ground. Its been that way for almost 60 years and it still hasn't prevented problems from occurring. ISO didn't help or hinder here either. Once again it gets back to the human element - is there a quality mindset already in place?
My two cents from the trenches...
Art
I do not disagree with what you are saying. I think the aerospace industry was already at or above what ISO could do for them so it made little effect. However, other industries were not "recordkeeping" anywhere near that level. I remember some of the auto industry recalls of the seventies where every one of a certain model were recalled for a problem that really only affected a very few. Traceabilty. The other thing I see is, as a general rule, when a company is willing to make the extra effort to get an ISO rating they seldom fail, because the proper mindset is already in place. So to my minds eye the rating does show something. I think companies with the rating are more apt to have a consitant product or service, and usually a better product just because that is the natural offspring of process control. The aerospace industry is likely the exception to these rules because they were already there or above.The Professional Termite
The point of the original post was "Is there any difference between these saws". Comments surfaced at various points both posted and reported from me but from my father-in-law (who has been in the tool distribution business for over 40 years) that indicated that tools manufactured offshore and in particular those from Taiwan were to be regarded with suspicion. My F-I-L said that from his tour and his experience only one factory in Taiwan had the quality control standards in place to make a decent T.S.
I'm sure that the fact that the quality, fit and finish on a saw from this factory is so good , and the fact that the same organization is ISO certified is pure coincidence. Not.
ISO / OSI regulates standards for a million things from computer networks to quality.
You can't completely regulate quality - only those processes and results which you can measure. A factory can be ISO certified, manufacture an awesome saw, and yet the instruction booklet be totally useless and customer service even worse - but the issue was the saw itself.
The net of it is that whether for marketing or other purposes, the managers of the factory in Taiwan recognized that lack of perceived quality would hurt them and that producing saws of quality would help their business. Clearly they made a commitment to quality before the OSI auditors arrived and they use OSI to be able to rely on an idependent body to rate their quality. In the absence of a "Independent Woodworkers Assocation" rating, what else do we have to go on ?
It would be great if we could have an "IWA" and a rating system that graded tools on both their quality level and a duty rating (i.e. as indicated by a prior post - Entry Level, High quality / Professional, and Industrial) and then score them against their peers using a common process. Ratings gathered from 100 woodworkers.
Maybe Taunton can do it - garner some industry financial support, create a website with rating software, and have individuals with no connection to the tool companies register as reviewers, submit pictures of their work to qualify, and have them review the tools they themselves had worked with - and the customer service that went with it ! That would force the manufacturers to get into the comparative quality game pretty quickly.
But right now we don't have that option. So what else can we rely on ? ISO at least gives us something - it may not be the Holy Grail of quality - certainly it appears from the SwissAir disaster that the FAA isn't remotely close either. And we're not building things where tolerances measured to .001 have an impact on life.
Compare the quality of the General TS to that of the tools we have all owned at one point or another that weren't flat, flush, or true. I have no idea if they came from ISO certified factories or not - but I suspect not. In short ISO may not be perfect - but it is an indication that the manufacturer cares enough to go through the process. And the General measures up just fine.
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow"
Edited 5/26/2003 11:59:47 AM ET by Gavin
"In short ISO may not be perfect - but it is an indication that the manufacturer cares enough to go through the process."
Gavin
Go back and read the five or six previous posts cause if you want any argument from me you will need to change the subject. :) I think maybe it is Art's point of view you are in disagreement with rather than mine. I will say it again that ISO does not control nor make quality but it does show a mindset that was likely already in place. Iso is about traceabilty and procedures, (repeatability). I am not against ISO. I have worked in manufacturing and quality control with enough different companies over the years to see it's merits and understand it's workings. ISO is not a quality control system, it is rather a process control system with a main benefit being improved quality. Once you have a process in control quality is fairly easy to obtain and maintain.
Lets go back to woodworking now cause this is making my brain hurt. I'm not used to thinking. <g>
RichThe Professional Termite
Sorry, Rich - I meant to change the "post to" to "all" . Personally, I have no hope of qualifying for any ISO standard.
Although it seems ISO itself may be having some problems - it appears that a kilogram is getting lighter ! I believe it is the ISO that maintains - in a vault - some alloy mix devised in the late 19th century created to define exactly one kg. Apparently it is getting lighter - by a microgram (less than the weight of a grain of salt) - or at least lighter compared to other things which were also supposed to weigh exactly one kg. As this thing has apparently been kept in a vacuum sealed away in a vault, it kinda screws up a couple of basic rules of physics. Like "matter can neither be created or destroyed". So either the "standard" kilogram weight is getting lighter - or the others, initially derived exactly from the standard are getting heavier. But which is it ? Where is the matter going ( coming from) ? And if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, can ISO measure the noise (if indeed one should result) ? - or should we just turn it into furniture on a new table saw !
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow"
As far as quality monitoring goes, some companies have QC people onsite in the Asian plants. As long as the specs are complete, accurate with tight tolerances, and the QC people do their job at the highest level, the items should come out pretty consistently with an acceptible % of bad units. OTOH, acceptible to them may not be equal to what is acceptible to the end user since they may be looking at hitting 3%. 1% bad is a tyipical number but I'll bet they really don't know how many people are involved in forums and thread topics like this one. If Taiwanese tools/machinery are suspect, I would like to see all of us go through our shops and make a list of which items we are satisfied with and then note where they were made. Obviously, this can only apply to equipment made in the last 10 years, or so. It may be enlightening.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hey, Gavin. I bought a ts last year. I'm also in Canada, so I looked at many of the same saws. I ended up buying a Delta 36-650c from House of Tools (a western chain, great store, check the website). I think it's a Taiwanese built copy of their contractor saw, looks very similar. It has a big, solid cast iron top, 1 1/2hp motor and a lifetime Delta warranty. I think HD sells them for a bit less than their Ridgid saws. I've been very happy with the saw and expect it to be around for a good many years to come.
Thanks for the info, Jim. Comitted on the General. About the same money, theoretically 2HP, same cast iron top etc. etc. I think the fence is close to identical to the Beismeyer (spelling) as well. So we'll see. The proof will be in the cutting... General has an excellent rep with lots of commerical cabinet makers in Canada and elsewhere and a good setr up for help and warranty. Got some good feedback on their support from the archives, so I'm hoping it was a good decision. Gavin Pitchford
Welcome to the General Club. I have the same saw and I could not be happier with it.
EnjoyScott C. Frankland
Hi Gavin, and everyone else. This is my first post but have been reading here for a long while (about 6 months) I wanted to comment on the king model Table saw. I have the king cabinet saw 3 horse single-phase saw. Mine came brand new with the fence system (tru-rip) for about $1400 CDN. I bought this saw because a friend of mine has the same saw and was happy with it. I run a custom cabinetry shop and was looking to get a high quality cabinet saw. I looked into several models including the delta. The delta is smaller than the king, has skimpier parts and generally feels somewhat flimsy, not only does this detract from the saw but also does the price, at nearly double what I paid for the king and the delta does not come with a fence. Another reason I bought the king is because my friend who also owns one dropped his off the back of his truck when he was trying to unload it by himself and it remained perfectly dead on in all respects. That has to say something about the quality. When I got mine home and assembled (all of about 20 minutes) all of the setting and adjustments were dead on from the factory (the blade was perfectly aligned, the 45 and 90 degree stops were dead on etc.). I had assumed if your paying a lot for a good machine you would get quality, so I was not picky when I went shopping for my next tool- a 13" planer molder. I wanted the king model but due to it being on back order I opted to pay a few hundred more for the Jet model thinking I would get at least as good a machine. When it finally arrived (nearly 4 weeks later) I was stunned to find that I had to assemble it in nearly its entirety, and in doing so discovered that it did not come with in feed or out feed tables (the king does) it also did not come with the MANDATORY dust chute (the king does) which cost me an additional $65+. I was also upset to find that both of the side panels were destroyed during shipping. After I got it together and spending a fortune getting in working order, and waiting another month for the new sides to show up, I am still very upset with the quality of this machine and will never buy another JET model again. The hand wheels are all very flimsy plastic and feel like they could break easily. It takes considerable strength to even move the hand wheels and the whole machine needs to be disassembled (a half day task) once a month to re adjust everything that has gotten out of whack during normal daily use. When I compare this Jet planer to my many king Models (including table saw, jointer dust collector mortiser, band saw) I am disappointed. All of the king tools I own came from the factory almost entirely assembled and aligned absolutely perfectly and have required no additional adjustments.
First off, Gecko, welcome to Knots! Just a couple comments re. your experience with Jet. I'll say right off that I'm rather biased since my shop is nearly all white.
1. Machines coming out of the same factory or even off the same assembly line are not exactly the same. Motors, handles, finish, packaging, and other details will vary, some in ways significant and some not.
2. Since you refer to "King" machines, I assume you're from Canada. If so, is your division of Jet headquartered in Canada or the States?
3. Have you compared your Jet planer/moulder to the similar King machine? (Is it possible that the King is just as bad, or worse?) Are you sure they were both made in the same plant?
4. I'm surprised that you weren't aware of how much assembly your new planer would need and were unaware that it didn't include a dust chute. Do your homework.
5. If you believe you were misled by Jet's advertising, or that they somehow misrepresented their product, contact Jet. You'll find them genuinely interested in your concerns and eager to make things right.
http://www.jettools.com/JETGeneral/Contact.html
6. Only $1400 Canadian for your cabinet saw? That was a sweet deal! Too bad with what has happened to the value of the Canadian dollar.
(When I lived near Sault Ste. Marie, Mich. the parking lots at Wal Mart and those sorts of places were filled with Canadian cars whose owners came to the States to buy cheap goods. We Americans would cross over to Sault Ste. Marie, Ont. when we needed to buy things that were good. Ha.)
Good luck, Jeff.
Edited 5/8/2003 9:34:01 AM ET by Jeff K
Hay Jeff
If you have all Jet, maybe you have a manual for their small shaper.
I'm looking for a copy of that.
Jeff
If he doesn't, just call Jet. They'll send you one. 1-800-274-6846forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG
Sorry, in another post to someone I mentioned that I called Jet and they told me they would send me a manual.
That was over 3 weeks ago, and haven't had a chance to call them again.
Jeff
Sorry Jeff. I've got the 3 hp., which is the only manual Jet has available online for download. Suggest you follow Forest Girl's advice and call Jet.
Jeff
Hi Jeff, thanks for the input. The only reason I was upset with my jet planer is because I did compare it to the same model from King. The king model is identical except that it has heavy cast iron hand wheels and comes ready to use without having to buy all sorts of new parts (dust chute, in feed/out feed tables, stock guides for the molder etc.). My particular model if I remember correctly was shipped from the U.S. As far as them being made in the same factory as King; I don’t know, but I assume not. At any rate I am making due with it and it does do a very fine job once it is set up properly. I certainly don't mean to bash any products, and I know jet has a reputation for being very good machines. Despite my shop being all green (King) I still look at all the competition when shopping for new machinery.
I had a look recently at the General 50-175 at a recent woodworking show and was impressed, especially for the price ($600 US). Excellent fit and finish and a good fence. If you go for the General, let us know how it works out.
I was at Lee Valley yesterday taking a router course. (Have I previously mentioned that these guys are amazing). They have the same General in their inhouse shop (a truly amazing place - all that Veritas stuff !) that we have been discussing in this thread (the 50-175) and which they use to teach their TS courses at this store. Two weeks ago when I was in, I talked to their TS expert (he teaches the course at all the stores) and he went on in some detail as to how good he finds the saw. They have the same model of Rigid others have noted in this thread at one of their other store / seminar locations, and his recommendation was that the General was superior for the table, the fence, ease of maintenance, the accuracy and the power. They have standardized on the General for future stores as well apparently. Not hugely superior - just better in each respect. As he makes his living teaching others how to tune / use tablesaws, I took his recommendation to heart.
The General arrives tomorrow !Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow"
Gavin glad to near you bought a General. I love mine and have not regretted buying it. I have used a lot of saws over the past couple of years and the General just seems to be better saw all round.
I modified mine some what, with a outfeed table and side table. Removed the wings (bought mine with the stamped steel ones as I had planed on adding the the table). Also replaced the base with a mobile wooden box with dust collection and lots of storage.Scott C. Frankland
Gavin,
I bought thr 10" Rigid saw from Home Depot last year and am basically very happy with it. I have a Forrest woodworker II blade on it and I get dead on glue ready cuts. As with many saws, the blade guard and splitter are one unit and I built an over arm guard with dust collection built in to replace the factory guard. This first generation shop built guard works OK, but I will refine it in a future version. The Splitter is easily removed when needed, but is not great. I had to epoxy a piece of formica to the side of it and tweak it to get it to fit the kerf. Also, the sheet metal guard is a bit flexible. I am looking to incorporate a splitter into the table insert in the future. Recently saw a nifty looking guard that can be pushed down below the table when not needed, but the blade housing on the Rigid is not condusive to attaching a splitter directly to it, at least to my eye. I don't need to have it tilt very oftenanyway as I cut bevels and miters on a 45 degree jig that slides along the rip fence.
The Rip fence is not 100% perpendicular to the table, but I attach auxilliary fences anyway a la Ian Kirby depending on what operation I'm doing, and a couple of threaded inserts and set screws allow me to tweak them to absolutely perpendicular. Otherwise the fence is adjusted dead parallel to the blade at all positions.
I'm over all very happy with the saw, and I got it on a special for the same price as the regular price of the next saw down which has the wheeled cart. My saw package came with a locking caster set and a dust collector adapter for the base.
Take a look at it. My son who is a carpenter put me on to it.
Bill
I have a left tilt and made a big mistake with this saw. 50-185 I think I have, The fence sides are hard to replace!!!!!!!! the powermatics are not. I have had alignment problems with my saw, as the blade is lowered the rear of the blade moves toward the fence (usually you align the blade raised most of the way up)(i do) also, I have a woodworker one (Fine Crosscut, I guess it's slightly larger because of the tooth angles) from forrest and the clearence is terrible the blade is bearly below the table when it's teeth hit the arbor.... I've learned to work with the tablesaw because Genreal was NO HELP. I made a jig out of frustration, and found out what the problem with the saw alignment was.
Hey, maybe they fixed all the problems with the saw?
john
Nifty looking jig John, and good ideas from Scott! John, if you are having that much trouble, try calling General's president and owner. I think he would care very much, particularly given the nature of this - and future posts.
Hope I don't need the jig - and I've gone for the 175 model and the oversize fence, but modifying the table for dust collection sounds like a good idea. I'll let you know how it goes.Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow"
Well, the G.I. 50-185 still has problems
Well, it's March 2005 and General International is still having the same problems as John....................I'm so frustrated I've dedicated a web page to the problem....................
http://home.wavecable.com/~m9er
When I lower the blade the rear of the blade moves out of alignment and on the first saw I had the blade lowered into the trunion.
G.I. customer service is the worst I've ever seen
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