Hi everyone,
I have been trimming high-end homes for 20 years. I have seen a lot of painters/finishers come and go. But this one, well, it just blows my mind. This painter promises the home-owner a high quality /high gloss clear finish on all his trim. The guy comes in with a $100.00 Wagner paint sprayer, is spraying doors 15 feet from where I’m running my saws, with thick high-build/slow-drying poly. I mean, this is a 2 million dollar home! How do people like this stay in business? But they all had nice shirts with their business and personal names on them!
Maybe I should get some of those shirts!!??
Replies
This may not surprise you, but if I could find all the "painters" out there doing wood finishing, I could not only make a good living for myself, but several employees.
I had an example a couple of years ago, where the builder had to completely gut a room of a wall of built-ins, and all the base and door moldings. Unfortunately, the custom-made doors and windows had to stay and just get stripped. Both the builder and the owner tried to stop this bozo, but he persisted, insisted "I know what I'm doing."
I think this was the same guy that decided to do all the office / rec room built-ins at another site with Helmsman Spar Varnish.
Hi,
This guy eventualy went out and bought a used Apollo HVLP. The finish---better---but not nearly what it should be for a home like this. BE WARNED-------a fancy clean shirt with a personal name and the word "proffesional" does not necessarily denote "quality". But then those of us who have been in this for so long don't need to be told that---it's basically for the "newbies".
Hope everyone is doing well,
Dave
Actually, if he had the word "proffesional" written on his company branded hat/shirt I wouldn't hire him because he did not take the care to ensure that the word "professional" was spelled correctly.
That should have been the tip-off.Andy
I used to own a $300 Monte Blanc fountain pen. That didn't make me a writer.
No, but if you had been, do you think your publisher would have been impressed with a manuscript full of skips and ink blots, making your story illegible? Monte Blancs write very well, whether the author driving them can or not.Rich
A buddy of mine (master painter/finisher) used to have a saying that he'd repeat frequently: "Everyone's a painter". What he meant by that is the same thing that I've observed time after time over the 20+ years that I've been finishing and painting - Done properly and competently, painting and finishing looks to the ignorant to not require any great skill or ability. Which if they thought about it is testamony to the skill and ability of the person they were watching. But very few unskilled individuals seem to consider that possibility.
But more than anything else, other than hard-earned skill, what separates a good painter or finisher from a hack artist is that for the hack artist "good enough" comes much quicker than it will for the skilled painter or finisher, and their work reflects it.
Yep, Kevin, and the thing to remember is the true master makes it look easy.
I am a trim carpenter as well. Nothing raises my grain like the "Propheshonals" I have to work around. I feel like the idiot police making reports to a drive-by contractor.
I take the time to design a trim package to suit the customer/ client, make my joints tight and set all my nails, only to see some jack-leg painter slap a "Trading Spaces" grade paint job on it. Aaaahhhhrrrrggggghhhh!!!
Wow, venting is nice!
Regards,
Sean
Um..Ok everyone, I have to say here that I mispelled "profezzional" in my first post. Please accept my appollogeez. Must have been that 2nd vokda and tonik.....
However, back to the main point------------to use the term "orange peel" to discribe this finish is an insult to orange,s everywhere. Also, the home owner paid good bucks for special hinges to replace those that came with the doors and they sprayed right over them! When this guy and his crew showed up on the job I looked at his equipment and it all looked very used so I figured that he must have been around for a while. But when he finally got rid of the Wagner and said he bought a new "high quality hvlp sprayer" and brought it on the job , I could see that it was a very used item. I guess some people figure experience comes with the equipment.
Honestly, it comes down to how soon "good enough" comes. In all fairness, the guy may actually have a fair amount of experience but just didn't give a flying rodent's backside. Which illustrates the difference between experience and ability.
Show me a picky SOB and I'll show you a potential master finisher capable of high-end finishing, provided he/she is teachable. It really is that simple. Experience is great and there is no substitute for it. But quality is an issue of attitude more than it is of experience. An inexperienced finisher who gives a darn will keep redoing it until they get it right... if for no other reason than that it'll eat away at them until they get it right. Which shouldn't surprise any Knot-heads. After all, haven't we seen a steady stream of budding master finishers posting questions about how to "get it right"?
Bottom line: Skills can be taught. Ability can't. Either you give a darn or you don't.
Very true, Kevin. However, in this case, I witnessed the "satisfaction" in the finishers attitude and the lack of concern in his non-english-speaking crew regarding the end product. Everyone in every field needs to gain experience in their field. However to get that experience with a $100 Wagner sprayer in a $2 million dollar home is not the way to go.
Dave
I witnessed the "satisfaction" in the finishers attitude and the lack of concern in his non-english-speaking crew regarding the end product.
That's kinda what I'm talking about, though. One of the fringe benefits of having acquired my experience working with other finishers/painters on a small crew is that I was able to observe the corrolation between attitude and quality. Finishers for whom "good enough" comes quickly definitely exhibited a sense of satisfaction over their marginal work. In their eyes it was "good enough." I've taken jobs away from other painters because they didn't see what all the fuss was about whereas their bosses just wanted a quality paint job.
There certainly is an experience factor which can play into this. An inexperienced eye won't necessarily be able to easily discern the difference between "marginal" and "good" quality. But the driving force as far as I can tell is how quickly "good enough" comes. Point out the flaws to an inexperienced person and if they are capable of quality work they will want to understand how it happened and how to avoid it in the future, whereas a hack artists dismisses you as a picky SOB.
Generally I have found that a sense of confidence (even of supreme confidence) is a real asset for the budding finisher or painter. But for the hack artist it works against them because it just feeds into their "good enough" attitude and generally serves to actually lower the quality of their work rather than raise it, as it will for the person with the potential to be good.
Here's an odd observation for you: The two most capable helpers that I've trained over the years both had Attention Deficit Disorder. The first one in particular genuinely surprised me at how quickly he mastered virtually everything I taught him. He absolutely oozed self-confidence. So much so that he came across as cocky to those who didn't know him. LOL - our nickname for him was "The Rooster" because of the way he seemed to strut when he walked. But somehow in the maze of ADD in his brain he had this ability to hyper-focus somehow and pull off some very impressive work. This was more working with automotive metallic paints, which require a definite skill-set to apply uniformly to oddly shaped surfaces because you not only have to deal with flow out (no orange-peel or sags/runs) but also with how the metallic is laying down. We did a lot of finishing too. It's just that the metallic exhibited his potential better because it's much more complicated to apply correctly - especially to large, odd-shaped pieces (which can't be buffed out due to their shape) because then overspray just further complicates the entire thing.
Edited 3/4/2007 1:34 pm by Kevin
ADD is somewhat of a misnomer; in reality, we pay attention to everything on an equal basis. We don't weigh or prioritize what we perceive, we take it all in at the same level. A lot of stuff you filter out, we automatically intake. People always ask "why do notice that?" and our response, perhaps unspoken, is "how the heck did you NOT notice that?"
Probably should be called "Hypersensitivity to all stimuli syndrome" rather than Attn Deficit Disorder . . . . . a name no doubt coming from teachers who felt there must have been something "wrong" with the students who couldn't stay on task . . . . . back in the day when the term "multi-tasking" had yet been invented.
JMHO;YMMV
Going by your response, you have "ADD", right? In your case, if something just isn't interesting to you, do you basically lose any desire to deal with it at all as opposed to just going through the motions to do whatever it is?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
yes, and as with others, i didn't understand it until i was an adult. and as kevin points out, there are different degrees and variations on the general theme.
losing interest in a task really depends on the context in which it arises, and may be more dependent upon other personality or characterlogical issues . . . . . . such as the echos in my head from my dad saying " . . if you are going to do something, do it right" . . . . "always try your best" . . . "you can't really lose if you always try to do your best" . . .etc, . .. . .
i will tend to procrastinate on doing things that i don't want to do, but when i do them i still try my best . . . . but i think that is unrelated to ADD.
My fourth grade teacher, an older German woman, said that I lacked "stick-to-it-iveness" but they didn't know what to do with people like me. Apparently, nobody ever noticed how I, and others like me, could do something endlessly if it was interesting to me. I'm sure it's covered under the OCD umbrella.I'm still a big-time procrastinator if there's something I would really rather do (like sit here and do this). Perfectionism is also a problem and if I see no way for something to come out the way I want, I'll drop it in a heartbeat or die trying to get it right, no matter how long it will take. "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 3/8/2007 11:19 am by highfigh
I would suggest the symptom of "loses interest easily" is more accurately characterized as "easily distracted and has trouble managing all the crap one has going at any one time."
I find it very easy to start new tasks, whether interesting or not. However, my interest level in them doesn't necessarily equate to finishing them. Projects I find quite fun and interesting, such as woodworking projects, still sit half-complete for far longer than they should. Drives my wife (a total Type-A personality) NUTS.
Jason
Interesting.
My current helper (and partner in a side-venture we're launching) is ADD. He wasn't diagnosed until well into adulthood. He says that ADD can manifest itself in a wide variety of ways and that not everyone with ADD has it manifest in the same way. He also seems to think that I might be ADD.
I do identify with some of what you described. But I wouldn't characterize it as "hypersensitive." I've always seen it as more quirky than anything else. I notice and remember vividly the most obscure details while the more obvious details are very quickly forgotten. I'm also very adept with patterns. I see patterns and associations that many don't notice until I point it out to them. I'm pretty certain that that is a function of intellect more than anything else, though. And of course intellect manifests differently in different individuals too. Some parts of an IQ test I really struggle with. But the pattern recognition parts are always fun for me.
There are two things to remember re: a $100 Wagner and a $2M home- If the person using it is careful and gives a rat's butt, they can get decent results (not as fast as with great ability and equipment) and $2M doesn't get as much house as it used to. Personally, I don't think anyone should try to gain experience at a job site, on someone else's dime, EVER!. Practice should be done somewhere else, not on the job. It makes the person who's practicing look like an amateur, complete spaz (or insert your own description) and the business looks like they only want the money and take absolutely no pride in what they do. Everyone learns things on the job but to go out and use or do something for the first time at a job is BS, IMO.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Very well put. Especially ....... it'll eat away at them until they get it right. I know we've both felt that way more times than we'd care to remember.
The one I always liked was " I've always done it like this and never had any problems" All I hear is someone with low expectations.
I know I'll be quoting you in class soon " Quality is an issue of attitude more than it is of experience"
Excellent
Peter
....... it'll eat away at them until they get it right. I know we've both felt that way more times than we'd care to remember.
Hear, hear. The worst is when it's something that's long since shipped to the customer and every now and then it'll cross your memory and you'll wish that you could just go back in time and do some aspect of it differently, even if they were content with it. It's that striving for perfection that is both a curse and a blessing. Not only for us but I suspect for those who work with us too. LOL
C'est la vie.
Thanks,
Actually, we all knew that (wink, wink). Nonetheless, it aptly illustrated the incompetence of the painter, even though it was unintentional.
During the time that I was building my own home, I had a chance to visit the site of two other homes under construction by some of my areas top builders. These homes were in the trim out and painting stages. I was appalled at what I saw. Everything was done based on how quickly it could be done and it showed. There was very little original thinking going on and everything in the house was cookie cutter right off the shelf stuff. I actually felt sorry for the painter because of the poor fit of the trim work. He really had his work cut out for him to make that mess look good. I had been feeling a bit inadequate about how long it was taking me to get my house finished, but after seeing these houses I realized that when I was thru I was going to have something unique and interesting not just sheetrock, carpet and a quick paint job. The desire to make a quick buck is ruining architecture. Custom home builders are promising custom work with not other intention but to throw up off the shelf items as quickly as possible. The conversation with one of the GCs at one of these house sites was mostly about the subs that took too long to get their work done because they were too picky about their work. Imagine that, the guys that were trying to do things right were the ones being criticized by the GC. The problem is that customers are accepting this level of work. By the end of the construction process they are so ready for it to be over that they accept substandard work just to have it over with. Many of these builders would do much better work if the comsumer would force the issue. Now I 'm not insinuating that all contractors are operating this way, I'm sure there are some very reputable people out there doing wonderfully creative work, unfortunately they are in the minority, and they are very busy because of this fact. In the defense of the contractors, some of this hap hazard work is customer induced. If you try to get something done for too little money then quality will suffer. I have seen this too many times. A person soliciting for work will get quotes and then bragg about how they got their contractor to do the job for half of what the other's quoted, only to have the job done poorly or have the contractor leave the job unfinished because they weren't making any money. There are two sides to every story, so I wouldn't be too quick to judge where the origins of bad work are derived.
Ron
Ronaway,
Here's another twist to the thread.
I do a great deal of site finishing; paneled rooms, handrails, mantels etc. Since the decorative work, both painting and finishing, is at the end of the project, this is where the budget gets squeezed.
A case in point. This summer I did a paneled mahogany library with a coffered ceiling and an adjacent bar. There was another mahogany room here called the great room ( and it was) I also bid on that but was rejected. That room was colored with a fast drying pigmented stain, and was finished with a flat conversion varnish. It was done in a shop, shipped and installed. The room I did was in place. I used dyes and glazes for colorants, the pores were filled and then finished. I used a Cab lacquer that was a high satin sheen.
The owners then asked me to do their main bathroom and dressing areas which was all mahogany. They kept insisting I lower my price ( I didn't) They called a number of finishers in and ended up with one that did it for a fraction of my cost. He got started by taping the room off and the next day he was staining. He never sanded the wood NEVER. There were the normal chatter marks etc. that he went over once with a foam abrasive block. A water stain and water based lacquer was applied. The painter did the dressing room with a coat of minwax stain and two coats of urethane. The topcoat felt like sharkskin. They were thrilled it was done so cheaply. I was thrilled to see it looked like*%#@*.
The great room was a beautiful design. The opaque stain and flat finish just sucked the life out of the wood. It was cheap though.
The builders wife called me shortly after the clients moved in to tell me that she and the owners were in the library one evening and "the room glowed" She said it was their favorite room. They couldn't understand why I didn't want to do their bathroom.
They did hire me to French Polish their main hand rail and newel post. For some reason, the painter couldn't replicate the sample I made for this.
I can hear the naysayers " you can't French Polish a hand rail, it won't take the abuse etc etc." For the record you can.
It's funny, here was a consumer who could have what they wanted, they absolutely hated the idea of paying for it. Business can be interesting.
Peter
Peter,Some things just don't make sense. But they happen. As you said the decorative part is where the budget gets squeezed but the crazy thing is, this is the stuff everyone sees.Ron
Edited 3/6/2007 7:31 pm ET by Ronaway
How much you wanna bet that a year or two or three down the road they'll get to talking between themselves and regret having taken the cheap route... especially if one of their social peers comments on the difference in finish quality.
In all fairness to the other finisher who did the Great Room, he might not have had a lot of choice unless he was the owner. I work in a somewhat similiar environment in that we occasionally do corporate lobbies, higher-end hotel rooms and the odd restaurant and all of my bosses want low sheen and cheap. Especially cheap!
Last summer we did all of the Sepele woodwork for the Grant Grill's grand reopening in San Diego. I've seen pictures of it all installed and it does look good. But as the finisher responsible for all the finish work up here in Oregon I can tell you that I was both frustrated and disgusted at the corners that were cut on our end. But at the same time, those are the realities of this kind of work in a commercial environment. Everybody is trying to underbid everyone else and the lowest bidder wins more often than not, with the quality following suit. Not because that's all they are capable of but because they're not in business to lose money.
Kevin,
You hit it on the head. It was a big shop and this is what they do. I'm just sorry to see the way the industry has gone and this is now the norm. It too was sepele and I would loosely describe the color as Carmel. You know what I mean. The finisher also toned everything to be the same. Right, wrong or indifferent it is what it is.
The worst part of it was they were way off schedule. The builder told me had they (clients) not had so much money into it they would have pulled the plug on it. I could see the difference in the quality of the finish from what came in at the beginning and what came in at the middle. I'm sure they didn't.
I disagree about the social part. I'm sure it will be a matter of pride for them and others of their ilk that they got away cheap.
I know it's frustrating when you know what it should or could look like but............
Peter
It's a shame he didn't use dye instead of pigment. Even with the flat varnish on top it would have looked much more natural, as you know. Granted that pigments are easier and faster when uniformity of color is the objective. But a good approximation of color uniformity can be had with dyes without the downside of all that pigment laying on the surface
I did my Sepele job with strictly dye and it really looked very natural in terms of color. Pretty uniform in color too. It was the one part of the whole job that I was very pleased with given the constraints of what I had to work with. And upon reflection I must admit that the client probably wouldn't have appreciated the difference much. Of course had my bosses known that pigment would have gotten us in the same basic ballpark in fewer hours I undoubtedly wouldn't have been given a choice. Sometimes it's good to know more than the bossman, as long as he still feels like he's the one calling the shots. LOL
Do your bosses know anything about finishing? You better hope they don't know anything about Knots. :)
My immediate boss does, but he's on my side. ;-)
It's quite possible that he has a 100 dollar machine because his employees steal them.
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