Hello every one, I am starting construction on a new shop (dream come true!) and am getting ready to purchase a jointer. I have decided to go with the 12″ for a variety of reasons and would like to know if anybody has a any reccomendations? I am looking at Powermatic, General, and Oliver at this point. Prices are all pretty comparable but I have noticed a big idfference in machine weights (in my simple mind heavy=better, more steel etc.). I am planning on going with a helical head cutter as well. Any comments, pointers, advice etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Karl
Replies
Karl: I don't know a whole lot about it but from what I've read Oliver is making lesser quaility equipment then they used to. Overseas production and cutting of corners. Their older stuff was the very top of the machine world, now look out. I'm sure others will know more. Duke
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Well I've had the Grizzly G9860ZX for about a 9 months, and have been very happy with it. It's a parallelagram design for supporting the tables. The tables were dead flat when I got them, and have stayed that way. And it's nice not to ever think about setting jointer knives again.
The thing's a beast, about 1000 lbs., and comes in a 7 ft. long crate.
You may want to look at the MiniMax machines as well. I worked in a shop for 7 years with a 12" MiniMax that was excellent. Never a problem, easy to change knives.
-Paul
When I build my dream shop my 1954 30" Oliver jointer will finally be put to use.
Guess my point is, purchase a big old vintage jointer and if the spiral head is needed retro fit one.
DJK
Don't let any one talk you out of the spiral cutter head.
They have to old Oliver 12" jointers at the Laney college in Oakland and they are really nice machines even though they get a lot of abuse and don't get as much maintance as they should. They are 3 phase though.
Troy
A buddy of mine has the general international 12" jointer with the helical head. It is a well made machine. He had a few adjustment problems in the beginning but their customer service department was able to help him through the alignment process. Since the tables are a parallelogram style adjustment they are a little tricky to dial in if they are not exactly planer when you get the machine.
Overall he is quite pleased with the machine. It leaves an excellent surface. runs quietly and was not too expensive.
J.P.
J-surprised to see you say that //gram tables are tricky to dial in-I think just the opposite-they are very easily adjustable compared to the dovetail way type-in all directions.
Why are you of that opinion?Philip Marcou
Parallelgram tables are very easy to adjust. Right along with the incline types found on old Oliver, Crescents. The key is to have a good straight edge, set of feeler gauges and dial indicator. The toughest tables to remove and replace are parallelgram tables. The incline type are the simplest of all. Have had to regrind a number of warped incline tables over the years. Dovetailed ways machines have to be reground with both tables on the base for accuracy.
Philip,I helped a friend to set up his new 12' jointer with the helix style cutterhead. When it arrived the tables were both slightly twisted. We had to adjust them to be coplaner using the cam screws at the corners of the tables. It seemed that when we were able to get the outfeed table flat, it was too high, then we had to re-adjust all 4 corners again to get it just right since you cannot adjust the knives. Then do the same to the infeed at all corners to make it just so to the out feed.It was a little comical at times since once we thought we had it it was not quite right so we were back off to the races. All in all it was about 6 hours to finally get it set. He says it works well now.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
"he says it works well now".---- Yes , but is it plumb? I did say they were adjustable in all directions;)(;.
I salute you for your bombe chests in particular.Philip Marcou
Philip,Well he can flatten boards and straighten their edges, so I would say that it was a successs. He has been using it for over a year now with no complaints. Except for the fact that the little knives seem to leave slight tracks across the board. However these are easily removed with the swipe of a plane. Thank you for your kind remarks.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
In a recent thread I started regarding the new Festool TS 55 saw, I learned about something I had never heard of and that is the EZ Smart system. It is a guide system that can be used for saws, routers, and portable planers that essentiall does away with the need of a tablesaw and jointer. If I were starting over I would seriously consider this setup with a Festool saw as part of the guide system. The whole setup is around $350, a lot less expensive than a jointer or a tablesaw. Check out their website (and maybe the comments on the thread I started) to at least to be aware of what is out there; I never knew about them.
Look at the Felder or MiniMax. Make sure you get the Tersa cutter head, it has disposable knives that reset themselves to + or - .003 inch. Change all 4 knives in less than 5 minutes.
Last year, I looked at a wide variety of new and used machines. I saw several that appeared okay, but finally opted on a 12" Northfield. This is an expensive and very large piece of machinery, but if you have the room and $$'s, its worth it. And you're correct, more weight is a very good sigh in a jointer. Mine weighs over 1600# and virtually vibrationless. The large tables make handling larger boards a breeze. Since I begin all my projects with rough cut lumber, this is a big plus. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Dale
Thanks for all the info and ideas for my questions! I have decided to bite the bullet and either go with a Northfield or the Canadian made General. The expense is certainly a lot higher but I am looking for a life time purchase and would rather spend a little extra up front. The Felder machines were appealing also but I think were all 3 phase which is not available in my area so I am somewhat limited in that regard. It's too bad that the selection of American made machines is so limited, even though the off shore models are nice for the most part they don't (seem) to have the finish and weight of the American mades.
I am planning on having the new machine in place by the end of January and will post something when it's up and running! Thanks again for all the advice, this site is a great resource!
Karl
Ok,
Sorry to rain on your parade but I suggest NOT getting the jointer. This summer I used the planer sled that was featured in the summer FWW magazine. With a few tweaks it worked like a dream. And it was faster and easier than a jointer. How long would your maximum stock be? Anyway, something to think about.
Cheers,
M.Stehelin
Do you feel you get the same precision as on a jointer for your 90° face?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
While you might be able to flatten faces with the planer sled, it won't give the kind of precision needed for edge joining nor will it allow edge jointing boards wider than about 5 or 6 inches. In my opinion, the sled is a good work-around, if you don't have space, but not a substitute for a good jointer.
There's no way a sled could even compare to the speed of a jointer. I could probably face six boards or more before you even got the first board on a sled ready.
I agree that for a couple of boards the Planer sled is slower. BUT if you are doing 20 boards at a time the planer sled is faster. As for edgeing for glue ups, I use a 12 inch blade on a old delta rockwell table saw. I have a 16ft piece of channel iron that I use as an auxilery fence. It really works well and produces a very clean edge. I can't deny that I wouldn't be happy with a 12 inch jointer in my shop. Just the eternal questions of need, cost and use.
Cheers,
M. Stehelin
I agree that for a couple of boards the Planer sled is slower. BUT if you are doing 20 boards at a time the planer sled is faster.
There is no way that statement is true. I can face boards on a jointer as fast as I can feed them through. Typically we skip face them which is the name for taking off the high spots so it thicknesses flat and true on the planer. In production operations they use a facer planer which is a jointer with a powerfeed which consists of metal spring loaded finger to move the wood along the beds. About the closest you can get to hand feeding for twist and cup with a machine.
Rick,
Sounds like you have a better Jointer than I do. Where do you work?
Cheers,
M.Stehelin
Have a 20" RGA jointer in our shop, also access to a DJ30 12" down the street. I gather you don't have a jointer or nothing bigger than a 6 or 8". I still can't believe you would say the sled is faster than a jointer. Large jointers aren't that expensive used.
HAHAHA! Ok Rick. How is this?
"My" planer sled is faster than "My" 6 inch jointer.
Sounds like you have access to a great shop.
Cheers,
M.Stehelin
I would check directly with Felder about getting their machines wired for single phase, their machines have always been available in either. I think that some of their machines now use three phase motors with built in electronic inverters that allow them to be used on single phase, gaining the advantage of three phase with the simplicity of single phase.
John W.
Thanks for the post Dale, I have decided to go with either the Northfield or the North American General. I think they are about the same in price, did you look at the general by any chance? Also, was your experience with Northfield a good one? Any tips or options you would reccomend? Thanks again for your time!
Karl
I did not look at the General closely. There was none anywhere in my area to view. I had viewed used Northfield machines so I "kind'a" knew what to expect.
I opted to go with the 5 hp 3-phase (for resale purposes, which will now probably never happen!) and run it on single phase 240 (yielding about 3 hp). I used a passive phase converter, which required me to rewire the control box to bypass the magnetic starter. Based on my experience with the machine, I believe a 3 hp is adequate for almost all applications.
My experience with Norhtfield was excellent. I was always able to contact the gentleman who ran the place for questions, etc. The delivery was right on time.
Feel free to email or call me if you have additional questions.
Dale
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/jointers/medium.htm
The Northfield medium duty 5 hp single phase is $11,000 and the heavy duty is $14,000. I think the General is a lot less plus they just came out with a 10" model that has a slot mortiser. The slot mortiser is a must have in my opinion although I prefer it as a seperate or at least on the back side of the jointer.
I can usually pick up a used jointer in good shape for a fraction of a new one. I paid $1750 for my 16" Oliver and invested a few hundred in having the tables ground and was way ahead of the game. At the time a new Oliver was $14,000.
Edited 12/13/2005 2:11 pm ET by RickL
I have a 12" Northfield HD, not medium duty, but the big dog, that was new in 1957. I bought it from a guy who refurbishes old woodworking machinery. It is absolutely awesome. 4 knife balanced cutterhead. Mine is a 3 hp, 3 phase, dmd (direct motor drive), and I run it with a rotary phase converter. I can hog off 1/4" of hard maple in one pass on 8/4 stock with absolutely no problem. The time it saves alone makes it worth the $4000 I paid for it 4 years ago. The guy I got it from had a 16" Northfield about 3 months ago for sale. Anyway, if you're interested, I can hook you up with him. Let me know. Here's a pic of my 49 year old beauty.
Jeff
Ah well , there you go then-that is a proper SURFACER at last. Not a planer (or planner) or a jointer.
Now, can some body explain to me what exactly is this sled thing folks have referred to- is it some cobblement that has arisen because folks are messing with mere planners/jointers etc when they should be using the correct machine? <G>Philip Marcou
The planer sled was in the magazine a few months back. Essentially you put your board on top, and shim it so that the planer rollers can not flatten the twist (or warp or cup...) as it goes through the planer.
It seemed like a very time consuming process to me...
"sounds like a very time consuming process...." Certainly sounds like the stuff of night mares to me!Philip Marcou
mook
Some guy writes an article on how to spend 3 times as much time messing around with some goofy contraption and fixing up all your twisted lumber, instead of just paying attention in the first place, and everybody goes gaga. Don't pay it any mind, it's silly.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
That is an awesome looking machine! I would love to talk with the guy you bought yours from and see if he can hook me up with something like yours. You can email me directly if you want at [email protected]
Thanks
Karl
Karl
I sent you an email.
Jeff
Oliver, the American company ceased operations a number of years ago. Someone bought the name and is applying it to imported machines but the new imported machines have nothing in common with the old American made machinery. Heavier does not automatically mean better, especially on imported machinery, cast iron is cheap.
John W.
Rich Fink a former Employee bought the Oliver name.
There's a lot of good old jointers out there.
Look at http://www.exfactory.com for example. They are a broker for machines, not a dealer. Prices are set by the seller so the range can vary. A local dealer in your area will have a warranty and have gone through the machine so you will pay more from a dealer than a broker. I've had good luck selling through exfactory myself.
Edited 12/13/2005 4:38 pm ET by RickL
Mr. Fink bought the parts, inventory, and the drawings from Oliver, and is supposedly planning to manufacture an Oliver design planer, but his company is called Eagle Machinery. Apparently he doesn't have the rights to the Oliver name and logo.
The Asian made, Oliver branded, machines are being imported by the same company that imports Sunhill and Gee Tech machines. The design of the Asian machines does not appear to be based on the original Oliver designs.
John W.
12 INCH CRESENT JOINTER FOR SALE AT WOOD CENTRAL'S CLASSIFIEDS POSTEED FOR YOUR CONVEINENCE:
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This machine is one of the oldie but goodie heavy casy iron jointers. Made after WWII (probably early 50's). It looks like an aircraft carrier. It has a single phase, 3hp, 1725rpm, 220v, 3 belt drive motor. An 82" bed. 4" 4 blade cutterhead A homemade mobile base that works real well. Massive (about 700+lbs) Very good condition. Just needs cleaning and maybe a paint job. Complete. Located in Groton Ma. Call me at 978-448-3006 hm or 508-517-6983 cell This is the "I wish I had one" tool. Graceful casting, sturdy presence, purrs like a (big) kitten while running. The perfect 'gloat' accquisition $1600 OBO. Marc
He reduced the price to $1,300. It's a babbitt bearing head but that's fine. The Crescent jointer is a great machine. I've set up quite a few over the years.
Karl,
Take a look at the Bridgewood 12" with the spiral cutterhead. The Northfield and the General are OK, but their design is out of date. The Bridgewood is a modern design and it's fit and finish is perfect. I wanted an Italian machine but was not impressed with the surface grinding on the tables. Blanchard ground tables are a thing of the past. The surface ground tables are like a mirror and the Bridgewood has it all over the other machines from Taiwan because Wilke puts a Baldor motor and Square D electrics in their machines. I have a Laguna table saw and bandsaw and I think the Bridgewood machines are equal or superior in a lot of ways.
"Square D electrics"
So French controls are superior to Taiwanese controls? ;)
Easier to get parts for in the Ann Arbor, MI area. McNaughton and McKay had parts in stock for a lot of my controls, but I have never needed them yet.
I would opt for an old Crescent and could put a new Tersa head or Byrd head and still be ahead of buying a new jointer. The inclined ways of the Crescent and Oliver would be comparable to the parallelogram system. It's actually a lot easier to have a table removed and reground if necessary on the inclined type versus the parallelogram. I've worked on all kinds of jointers over the past 25 years.
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