12″ Jointers..any opinions on Shopfox?
Zigs
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hi Folks,
I’m new to this forum. Thank you in advance for any insight or help you may be willing to give me.
I am an experienced violin and cello maker and have the great fortune to be designing my new shop. I finally have room for a 12″ jointer – which really comes in handy with flamed maple cello backs…
Can anyone recommend a good 12″ jointer new or used? I’m looking at a new Shopfox for some ridiculous price – about $1500.00 US. Very cheap.
I can only imagine it’s made by slave labor on some remote Pacific Island…I’m very weary of it, though it seems good and can retrofit with the helical cutterhead which I need to counter the deeply flamed wood.
Any thoughts?
TY
Zigs
Replies
You might look at a Bridgewood by Wilke Machinery. I have their 8 inch and love it.
Alan - planesaw
Alan,
I don't think the bridgewood is priced anywhere near the shopfox. I was looking at the shopfox myself, and wondering the same things about it.
Lee
Welcome to knots, Zigs. I think Shop Fox, Grizzly, Bridgewood, General and a few more are basically the same machine. I'd jump on it for $1500, it's hard to find a good used 12" for that kind of money, especially single phase models. If you don't like it, you can probably sell it for the same amount.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hi folks, thanks for the welcome and the input.
I recently retrofitted my Jet 6" jointer with a helical cutterhead. It's made a world of difference on the highly flamed maple I use and is SO much quieter.
Turns out that the 12" helical cutterhead that I can buy to retrofit the Shopfox costs more than the machine itself - about $1800.00!
Sounds like I might go ahead and get it.
Zigs
Zigs, I've seen other replacement heads for less money, some around $800 but there are many different types of set ups. Are you using the material surfaced from the jointer? Normally it's the planer that does the, almost, final surface, in my shop. Have you tried changing the bevel on the straight knives? A lower degree of angle can help quite a lot with difficult grain. Hard to beat a good widebelt sander. Sometimes you can find a shop that will do widebelt sanding.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I have a hard time believing that they are all the same jointer, made in the same factory, just different paint. It is an easy thing to say, but not necessarily true.
Just because they are all made in the same part of the world doesn't mean they come from the same factory. And saying that the quality is the same is like saying that a Toyota made in the USA is the same quality as a Chrysler made in the USA.
Camtek makes some of the highest quality machinery in the world and theirs is made in China. Precision workmanship, highest quality materials & electronics.
My only experience with Shop Fox will be my last. I bought a couple of their large clamps, a takeoff of Bessey, and was really dissappointed in the quality, and also the strength of the materials. Not worth the money.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Edited 11/1/2006 12:12 pm ET by Hal J
Hal,
Thanks for the feedback.
On a separate note, I looked at your website. Absolutely fantastic and impressive work that you do. I especially like the woodcarving. May I ask where / how you began to get into wood carving?
As I mentioned earlier, I am a violin and cello maker. I have to say that I get tired of doing basically the same thing over and over. There is very little room for creativity or expression in my particular field.
So to keep my mind active and engaged I make some furniture as well. But I would really like to incorporate my carving skills in my (amateur) furniture making.
Do you have any suggestions where I could learn to do some of the intricate carving that you're doing? Books? Videos? Classes? I gather you learned through trial and error over time, but if you have any particular tips I'd appreciate it!
I know Im digressing here, hope that's ok.
Thanks again
Zigs
Hey Zigs,
Thank you for the compliments! I do need to upgrade my web site though. I've got more photos!
I am supposed to be working right now, but am doing this on "coffee break," so I need to be brief.
I basically taught myself. I tried some relief carving a couple of times many years ago according to instruction in a book I bought, but couldn't seem to make it happen. Then along came a potential client that wanted a French style fireplace mantle, which is on my web site, and I told them I could do it. I then really started to do research, practice, and figure it out There were not all of the fancy books on the subject in those days. At one point, I realized that I got it. I am no master carver though, but have done quite a bit of it. I really need to put more of it on my web site.
One thing you need to know is that "seeing" the carving in the wood prior to carving really is the key. That way you know what parts to cut away, and how to get what you want. As some say, the carving is already there, you just need to cut away all of the rest. If you accidentally cut off something you wanted to keep, just keep carving, it is still in there.
Here's a tip. Make something that has carving on it like a Queen Anne chair or table with cabriolet legs that have carving on them, of genuine mahogany, cherry or walnut. The cherry would be the hardest to carve. Keep at it until you are finished. The carving won't need to be perfectly perfect, but will look good just because it is there. Just remember that the shallower you carve, the better. Keep the carvings simple. I think this is a better way to learn than just practicing on boards.
I have a friend named John Sullivan in Portland, Oregon that is a violin maker. He is really well trained and talented. If you are making violins and cellos, you are probably very skilled.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal,
Thanks for the response. I'm all inspired to do some carving on the next table I make. I have a lot of cherry we cut from our woods ( I live in VT) and have been picking through it for some projects for our house. Like you, I don't particularly enjoy carving cherry...I used to make guitars with mahogany necks. Like butter.
I'll search for some good books on relief carving. And yes, I have some good skills from violinmaking that I can apply. But in violinmaking, i carve the same old thing again and again. I think it would be really satisfying to try something new.
Anyway, I'll keep my eyes open for some new pics on your site. Very cool.
Zigs
Shop Fox is the retail arm of Grizzly, owned by the same people. For machinery, the Shop Fox tools are a different color of paint, available at retail B&M's, have a longer warranty, and are generallly a little more expensive.
The Shop Fox brand is also used to market a whole array of hand tools and miscellaneous do-dads; my experience with their quality has been mixed as well.
Is this really a fact? How do you know?
Just curious.
Interesting that Shop Fox has tools available that Grizzly doesn't sell.
Is this really a fact?
Yup, Shop Fox is owned by Woodstock International, Inc. Both Woodstock International and Grizzly are headquartered in Bellingham, WA, and owned by Shiraz Balolia.
See, for example: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1570/is_200310/ai_n9409079
But does this mean that the machines are all made in the same factory and just painted different colors? I think I need more proof!
Ford owns Jaguar, but I don't think they are made in the same factory as the Taurus. Hmmm... They do seem to look a lot alike though....
Based on that, you may be right.
Or maybe the guy that owns Grizzly bought out Shop Fox.
I really have no idea, just asking the questions because I'm curious to know the real story, and your one little clip didn't really convince me. It's close, but...not...quite...
Hal
Shiraz actually participates in a few woodworking forums (but not this one). Basically, the Shop Fox brand was started to respond to consumer demand for a retail presense for Grizzly tools. In order to avoid the situation where the Brick 'n Mortor stores would be facing competition from Grizzly's online business, he developed a separate retail brand. Thus Shop Fox was born. This a pretty common business strategy in this type of situation.
That's interesting. Thanks for the info.
Hal
I understood the same info about SF/Griz, but I thought Shop Fox was the cheaper line.
Alan - planesaw
Boy, I need to pay attention to things. I've missed out on all the gossip lately. That's the problem with working!
Hal
Hal J
Well, I work too. Many, many hours a week. I learned about the situation because of a Shop Fox I bought, had a problem, posted the problem here on Knots and got educated. One can work and learn at the same time. :-)
Alan - planesaw
Dear Zigs,
I'm not sure if this would suit you, but Grizzly sells a 10" with a spiral head for about $2000.00 US.http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0480Just a suggestionBest,John
Dear Zig,
I am not sure what cutterhead you had in mind, but I have a Byrd and love it. They list a "generic" 12" for about $800.00 US. That is Eight Hundred, not a typo. I have to beleive that the "generic is for the Grizzly, PM, Shop Fox, and similar.http://www.byrdtool.com/journals.htmlBest,John
John,
Hi. I am not sure what type cutterhead I was quoted the $1800.00 price tag on..I think it was Byrd...Actually, not even sure it was as much as 1800.
I retrofit a Byrd on my Jet 6" and love it..Though I AM getting a tiny 'shelf' where it looks like a blade is set at a slightly off angle. It seems like the corner of one knife is cutting out of plane... Any thoughts?
I'll check those things out. Thanks again.
Ha! I'm squeezing so many questions out of this one post! (hope that's ok)
Zigs
I have a 6" PM with the Byrd head. I would suggest finding the blade and rotating it 90 degrees. I am amazed how little fussing I have to do with the Byrd head. The blades never seem to wear. I have only had to change a couple, so far. Best,
John
That's actually what my local woodworking supply store guy said to do. Unfortunately I need to pick up the right Torx tool, and have been so flat out I haven't picked one up.
I'll do some research on the helical cutterhead for the 12" and see if I can get away with the generic...But, for the amount of money I spend on specially cut, book matched maple for cellos...I may not want to take a chance in order to save $1000.
Over the course of the tool's life, that's not much.
I'll report back when I get it all set up. I'm looking at a couple months.
Cheers
Zigs
Dear Zig,
Byrd sent the Torx head with my cutterhead.Best,John
I found the customer service at Byrd to be excellent. I couldn't decifer the chart, and it took them no time at all to tell me which head was best for my joiner (an 8" powermatic). I bet they would be happy to send you the tool you need.
I don't have a spiral cutterhead, but instead use solid (not tipped) carbide straight knives on my jointer. Even though they cost quite a bit, it might save the money spent on a spiral head.
It might make a difference that I use an old Powermatic jointer. Great tool!
By the way, what does it cost to replace all of the cutters on one of those spiral heads? I'm not being cynical, I'm just curious.
My solid carbide cutters also give a much smoother cut on curly and all materials than high speed steel, and seem to last a really long time. I sometimes go 9 months or a year without changing them, which is a long time considering I use my jointer every day as a professional. This long term use includes cutting really hard wood like Jatoba, ebony, hard maple, white oak, purple heart, wenge, etc., and I even will send a piece of MDF through once in a while.
I guess I am just wondering if you would be better off spending more on your machine and skipping the spiral head?
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Edited 11/1/2006 11:29 pm ET by Hal J
Dear Hal,
My jointer doesn't see the work that yours does, but I do use it professionally, so, downtime is not an option. What does it cost to change ALL of the cutters? Well, it's been three years and I have only had to rotate a few cutters (less than 10) once and none twice. I would say that it costs about $160.00 to replace all of the cutters.
http://www.byrdtool.com/journals.html
The cutters are around $2.50 each. There are four cutting edges per cutter and they seem to last forever. Downtime is reduced substantially as there are no adjustments. Loosen the bolt, rotate the cutter, tighten the bolt. Done. It doesn't tie up the machine, nor does it require a skilled person to do it. Very economic. That, coupled with less load on the machine, there seems like no downside. I am very happy with the setup.Best,John
Very interesting. Good information!
I think I will buy one!
Hal
Regarding 12" spiral jointers, I have had a bridgewood for about 4 years now, cost somwhere over 4k. Twelve hundred of that was for the spiral cutterhead. I have used a lot of jointers in shops I worked in and nothing worked as well as this one. Incredibaly quiet, No tearout ever and worth the price easily for the ease of knife changing alone. They even incuded a little tool box with an air wrench and torks bit for the knives which will cost about $100 to totally replace if I ever get all 4 sides of them dull.
interesting. I have the Grizzly 12" parallelogram w. spiral; looks alot like the Bridgewood. It also came with a nice air wrench and bits for replacing/rotating the inserts, and a laminated instruction sheet. I bet it's the same cutterhead, and I agree it's worth the price alone to eliminate knive sharpening and aligning (to me, at least).
Hi BarryO: Yes they do sound the same. I haven't seen pics of the grizzly but mine is a parallelogram also. It survived a move of 200 miles in a rented van where me and a friend loaded and unloaded. You know how they say not to ever move a jointer by holding by the tables? Yea right, like there is some other way to do it without a crane. I worried that it would be out of whack after the move, but it is just as perfect as can be. My 1st jointer was a mail order 6" from Sunhill and it was so bad I was ashamed to sell it without full disclosure that it would be a great anchor for a mooring buoy. I resaw 10 and 11 inch wide billets into guitar tops as well as exotics for backs and sides for several local luthiers and this jointer has made that prep work for the bandsaw a piece of cake.
I hauled my old 6" jointer to a sidewalk swap meet the local Rockler was having; sold it to some old guy for $75 bucks (it was missing an adjustment lever on the outfeed table).
It's nice never having to worry about the fact that a board is too wide for the jointer. I got my 12" from the frieght terminal myself on a small trailer. 'was able to pick it up with an engine hoist equipped with a load leveler. There were spots on the base where I could run HD nylon cargo straps.
Yes, speaking of boards to wide for the jointer, I built a jig from plans in an old fww mag. using extruded aluminum 2x4rs and threaded rod with homade cam adjusters. Sounds wierd but the thing works excellent with a router on a sled witha 2" bottom cutting straight bit. Limited to the nine foot length of the 2x4rs. Actually you can flatten a badly warped and twisted board with MUCH less waste than with a real jointer, even flip it and flatten the other side parallel with out a planer. A little slow but sets up on saw horses for job site work.
Okay, we will let you tell us that it works.
But I personally don't accept that it is easier than a jointer.
But then, maybe I just expect a better surface than you do.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal, I too am very pleased with my carbide knives-except that I have them on my Thicknesser and they are tipped , by Leitz.
When I tried these on my Surfacer I did not like them- more noise and required more hold down pressure-exactly what the makers mean when they specify " for power feed only".
I have seen no other knives like these: they have a mirror polish and unlike the usual carbide, feel sharp, very sharp. Horribly expensive, but I have had them since 1994, and they have only required re-grinding twice in that time. The first re-grind was done by Leitz in Germany when I was there, whilst the last was done here-but this time no mirror finish.
Seems to me that the spiral item is a mighty fine thing, makes plenty of sense: I would like to have one for my Griggio surfacer.Philip Marcou
Philip,
I'm thinking that the spiral might be a good move. One thing I worry about is that now, I get an incredibly smooth finish with my surfacer with the solid carbide knives I use. I don't want to deal with any sort of lines, visible or otherwise, that I may get from insert cutters. I can see where it wouldn't be an issue for a shop with a surfacing sander, but I don't use or want one.
Luckily for me, there is a place near here, in Portland, Oregon, that does a fantastic job sharpening my carbide knives. They are polished. I think it is easier for shops to sharpen solid carbide than tipped as the backing is cut with a different cutter than the carbide.
The thing is, this shop is not a saw sharpening shop. I couldn't get a good sharpening from any I went to. The shop that is sharpening these for me is a knife sharpening shop. Like industrial knives: Those used in the paper industry, veneer knives, etc. Hopefully there is one near you.
These have lasted me since 1980, when I acquired them used. I have two sets, which really helps, but changing them is time consuming, no matter how long they last in between.
Hal
Zigs
Shop Fox general and Grizzly are all the same jointer, differant paint..
Made in Tiawan and a great basic piece of equipment. solid reliable and durable as well as being butt simple to repair and adjust..
If you value your hearing buy the spiral head for it..
I have a set of good ear mufss and I can't take a whole day of listening to that darn thing with the 4 blade set-up.
Maybe if I changed blades every hour or two it wouldn't be so bad but 8 to 10 hours of listening to that thing scream and you want to go out and Kill!
Look around for a used Oliver if you can find one that is priced with in reason they are nice machines. Take a look at owwm.com they have a lot of users of such beasts. Anyway good luck
Troy
Hi Zigs,
I picked up a demo 8" Shopfox jointer with the spiral cutterhead at one of the Grizzly tent sales a couple years ago. I have been very happy with machine. It's not as beefy as the Generals or other top units, but it works fine for me. i recently built a work bench from eastern maple that is 7' long. Though 7' was pushing the limits on length, the pieces came out true with very little chipping. Seems to be good value for money for hobbiests. I would certainly encourage you to look into the spiral cutterhead.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled