I was at Lowe’s the other day, and noticed that the regular ol’ 3/4″ birch and oak plywood they’re now selling is 13-ply, instead of the normal 7-ply, so it has a superficial resemblance to Baltic/Finnish birch. I’m guessing that the interior plies are made of the same South American mystery wood that the “blondewood” plywood is made of. I looked at a few sheets of the birch, and the face veneers weren’t too bad–better than the old stuff, actually. The front faces were essentially free of knots and patches, with maybe a small split here or there. The back faces had “spackled” knots, but it was done neatly. The face veneers are still much, much thinner than those on real Baltic/Finnish birch. The front veneer appears to be thicker than the back veneer (which was about as thick as cigarette paper…). Flatness of the sheets was not bad, but not great–about a 1/4-1/2″ bow in 8′.
I bought one sheet and took it home. After cutting it up, I could see that there were significantly more edge voids than I would expect to see in Baltic/Finnish birch. Overall, though, the material seems to be better than the old stuff.
-Steve
Replies
Hi Steve ,
It sounds like you just bought some China ply , yup !
Domestic mills could not afford to use as many plies as the China mills do , think about it the more plies the more cost , not less cost .
My educated guess / hunch is after cutting the panel into various pieces they may individually decide on when and which direction they will warp .
I always get the feeling the panel is ready to blow or separate .
I think they use quite a bit of Poplar for the core and some face skin is Poplar as well it looks good especially for the money . The $15 per sheet savings I got on the last time I used 4 sheets was not worth me feeling flu like sick , probably from the glue / formaldehyde content .
I have sworn off of the stuff , the sad part is why can imports enter the U.S. or any other country and not have to meet the standards that the mills here are required for health reasons ? The rest of the sad part is that in all likely hood the mills making the China ply may be part American owned .
dusty , and still coughing
Old D,
What you reported about the dust from the muli-ply plywood is exactly what I experienced. I had a severe allergic reaction to it - it felt like I had come down with a sudden case of asthma.
Plus, the panel differed in thickness from one spot to another by up to 1/16". Try fitting that into a dado. The ends of the panel warped and started to delaminate. Overall, what I bought was a very poor product, and I've been careful to not purchase this type of material again. I might have saved ten bucks, but the hazards to my health and mental anguish I had to go through to make the stuff work was not in any way worth it. Lesson learned here...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
If you think that you are being poisoned by the glues present in Chinese made plywood, call the nearest branch of the Food and Drug Administration. Save the scraps of plywood, and hand them over to the investigator who comes out to talk to you. The FDA has been handling many more consumer complaints about unsafe products made in China besides the poisoned gluten in Pet food and lead paint on children's toys.
I was going to buy a few sheets of 3/4" birch for a small painted bookcase last summer and lowes is closer and a little cheaper than some of the lumber yards. I was loading it on my cart when I noticed darkness on the underside. I just thought it was dirt but when I looked closer it was mold. I looked at a few other sheets just to confirm and each had quite a bit of mold and it was still moist to a degree and it had a decent odor to it. Once I saw that, I have not bought any ply from Lowes, the money saved up front is less than the cost in the long run.
olddusty,
I suspect you are correct about China buying our wood.. my local sawmill went from selling black walnut to below wholesale prices because I seemed to be the only one buying it to way above wholesale prices because they get more from a chineese buyer who buys all they have without question..
As for the alternative wood check and see if it's basswood.. The market for that used to be in the toilet selling below pine and other cheap woods but lately has firmed up.. Last time this happened Mills in Canada were buying it and using it on the face of construction plywood..
I guess I should have been clearer in my original post. I think this is something different. As best as I can determine (which is admittedly not very well), I think it comes from Brazil. That's not to say that it doesn't pass through Chinese hands somewhere along the way, of course.
-Steve
steve,
Labor in Brazil is close enough to currant chinese labor costs that I doubt there would be enough advantage to all the additional shipping.
I sized down a sheet of the 1/4" (well actually more like 3/16" with a mic reading) "Oriental Surprise" today. When I laid it on my work-bench.. the flip-flop caused me to realize the circular saw with guide was not a healthy option.
I pulled the Bosch barrel grip from my holster and popped a 14 T blade on it. Set up Rigid flip top stands under the over-lie and went to work. Not a bad thing as I realized I got a perfect splinter-free cut with-out scoring and blue tape. I had intentionally cut 2" over-size at this point. May try that that barrel grip sizing down the "real deal" in the future when called for.
I also realized I wish I had known about this stuff about 6 years ago when I did semi-round show-room counters for work. I paid $11 a sheet for this stuff and about $30 or so for the bending ply at the time. This stuff is bending ply.. just not predictable as bending ply as it may go 3 directions at once. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Sarge..
Edited 3/17/2008 9:10 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Good one about the unpredictable "bending" ply!
I had some 1/4 inch stuff that, after being cut, curled up like taco chips. Impossible to use. The stress in that stuff just wouldn't release. I wound up throwing it all out, as I couldn't bear to see it in my shop any longer. What a disaster. After having driven to get it, taken the time to measure it carefully for the cuts, trying to deal with it after it had warped, I was in no mood for anything - let alone the wasted money having bought it in the first place.. Yuck. Had to take a nap after all that.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
This stuff actually has a bow after being cut into 17 5/8' x 21 7/8" rectangles for drawer bottoms. I would not use it for them except the way I make my drawer runners should pin em down. I use a male dove-tail front-rear guide attached to chest itself. Then under the drawer bottom their is a 5/8" female dove-tailed receiver runner that slides on the guide. One bottom support under each drawer attached to chest carcass that the outer drawer sides rides on to keep from tipping.
When I slide the ply into the 1/4" deep dado on each side the female DT guide will be underneath. I normally don't use any screws, etc. in my work.. but this ply is probably going to get 5/8" brads shot down the center to anchor the middle of the bottom to the under-neath carriage runner. Otherwise it could just bow up if without any warning.
I will say the grain on the "show" side was very nice... but it is also paper thin and I wouldn't attempt to sand it. Maybe a light hand shot of 500 Abralon to take off any surface trash before two coating with shellac. With good stock it is not necessary IMO to finish the inside of drawers... but this is getting a 2 coat as I don't trust the formaldehydes or whatever glue substance the little Commies use.
It will definitely be the last time I use export from the Orient. It was just all I could get in poplar ply even from a reliable cabinet shop lumber supplier. Frankly it the trend continues.. I may never use ply again period. I use a minimal now and at this point.. that may be too much. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
It's kinda funny - I hear horror story after horror story about (what Home Depot calls Sandeply) this South American plywood. Yet, after using dozens of sheets of it, I have yet to have a delam or hit any significant voids. Either I'm really lucky or the stuff that's marked as coming from Ecuador at Homey is very different stuff.Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
The question is where do you find the good stuff? I have bought oak plywood from Lowe’s and sanded through the veneer, it varied in thickness and the sheet was not flat. The next time I went to a lumber yard and they sold the same stuff. Then I tried to buy cabinet grade from a small supplier and it wasn’t any different. I have heard of cabinet grade plywood but I have not found anywhere to buy it.
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Is this going to be like buying tools where no mater what brand you buy they all (ok, a lot of them) come from the same china plant with a different color paint job. I try to buy quality products even if I pay more. I try to buy American but it is getting hard to do. Let’s see, I bought a new TV did some research, none are made here. Ordered a new laptop and bought a Gateway because I thought it was made here, nope it was shipped from Shangri. New shoes? No <!----><!----><!---->US<!----><!----> factories left. Need some new clothes, not made here. New car? Bought a Ford, assembled in US but a lot of parts are made else where. Two factors there, one the UAW is still functioning (for now) and it is cheaper to ship parts than whole cars. Needed new kitchen appliances. Lots of brands, most made by one company and not really sure where they came from. New cell phone? None made here. My new skis? I bought <!---->K2<!---->’s, didn’t even look because I thought they were still made here. Nope when I unpacked them they had a china sticker on them. I wrote the company and ask when they started importing and they didn’t even bother replying. Basically I cannot find many consumer goods made in the <!----><!---->US<!----><!----> any more.
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Well I did buy a new LN last week. Paid a lot more that the “<!----><!---->Stanley<!----><!---->” and it is worth every extra penny I paid for it.
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Seriously, if anyone knows of a supplier of quality plywood please let me know. I am just a hobbyist so I don’t buy a lot but when I do need it I would like the option of getting the good stuff.
Steve,
A while back, I bought several sheets at my local lumber yard. Stuff looked real good at the yard. However; after making a few cuts, the stuff warped, peeled, and tried to turn itself into some sort of pasta.
I would be interested to know how the stuff you purchased works out.
Best!
-Jerry
I'm about 5000 miles from the nearest Lowe's, but I did have a look at what HD and Lowe's were selling in the NYC area about a month ago. As far as I can tell, all the thin ply stuff that's on their shelves is from China, which is doing everything possible to take over markets across the world. This is no joke.
A note from the world of textiles - there are any number of Chinese floating factories now sitting outside territorial waters of the US and Europe, producing tons of cheap textile goods on board ship and then importing it under the registered flag of the ship, to avoid having it labeled as "made in China".
I don't think they're making plywood on board ships (yet), but they will go to unbelievable lengths to get into the market. The inner plies are always poplar, because it grows abundantly and quickly in China. They use thin plies because you and I associate that with quality plywood, but they still cannot make a quality product for the discount prices you are seeing. The QC of the inner plies is terrible, and they must be skimping on the adhesive. They've learned (rather quickly, no?) how to make the exterior look better.
My shop will not buy any more Chinese plywood. In fact, we are using more and more true Baltic Birch for cabinets, even though it costs us close to $100 for a plain 3/4" sheet. In this area at least, you get what you pay for.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
I just purchased two sheets of 1/4" poplar ply made in China from my local and long-time hard-wood supplier. That's all they had for 1/4" as I was going to use it for a back-board and drawer bottoms. Fortunately about the only use for ply I have as I prefer solid wood.
My wife could smell the formaldehyde. I will cut one sheet for the backer and seal it with 3 coats of shellac. If she can still smell it.. I'll return the other sheet and go an alternative route a this stuff is junk. Cheap price as it should be for junk. But with the shellac.. it will probably cost more than domestic made baltic birch in the long haul.
I haven't seen any decent ply at the Box stores for around two years if memory serves. But then again, I use a minimum of ply and am not paying much attention when I go in for odds and ends. What I have seen used warps.. has a ton of voids.. etc. etc..
In other words as I and others have stated.. I doubt I would use it on a dog-house, much less furniture grade. I think too much of animals to do that to them. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Hi Sarge ,
To my knowledge the chemicals and vapors and off gases that come from paneling and plywood was not only a safe level but that it dissipates and becomes less volatile or caustic as time wears on perhaps .
Now that we are talking a furin product all bets are off . How many of us or others will suffer respiratory problems and possibly worse ?
I have been in plywood mills and there is a layer of glue in between each ply that said maybe the amount although not always evenly spread , of glue they use is the problem not the type ?
Will they go back to the box stores and say hey ,, my husband is sick , we think the plywood you sold made him sick ?
My real frustration is not with the retailers but our countries obvious void of control or regulation to ensure the imports meet our standards of healthy amounts of formaldehyde and such . Where will this stop , is it just an oversight or part of a larger picture of what is to come in the future ?
More and more folks in this small group of Knotheads have complained about the product in the last year and very recently .
Say , how you hanging in down there in the storm systems ? hope you and yours are good .
dusty, the concerned
I don't know of any international standard, or even government standard for plywood. There are ASTM/ANSI Standards, and I am sure the EU has some.
I bought some Arcura plywood from Home Desperate about five years ago, that met the EU, and ASTM/ANSI standards. It was 17-ply and possibly the best softwood plywood I have ever bought. No voids, no knots or pinholes, and stable. I left some scrap outside and it got wet, and dry, several times, but it still didn't warp.
But, the Arcura plant is in South America, and they work hard to meet standards so that they can sell in the EU. They have huge quantities of money tied up in the tree farms, and state of the art physical plant. They want to be sure their product is going to continue to sell for years to come.
So, if you buy plywood, look for grade stamps on the edges, so you know what you are getting. No grade stamps, and it's just planer shavings and junk glue.
I don't know is the answer, I suppose. As I said, I fortunately don't use much.. so it's not a major concern. If I have to start re-sawing and gluing drawer bottoms, etc., I will as I am not commercial for sure and time is not an issue.
But.. for those that do use it frequently.. I do feel. I personally am not going to buy the Chinese ply unless they come up to standards. I have Chinese tools that are great for what I paid. Not perfect machining by any means.. but very acceptable in a wood arena.
But the plywood I have seen so far coming from there.. well....... boo-gity.. boo-gity.. shoot! :<( ha..ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
Guess we Canadians got the short end of the shtick again. HD here doesn't stock that wonderful Chinese stuff. We have to make do with Canadian -- Columbia products, formaldehyde free. At the moment 3/4 paint-grade maple is about $45 a sheet. It only has about half a dozen plies, but I've used it before and it's strong enough for built-ins. It actually stains quite well, and has only one or two dark streaks on the surface that you can often work around. How much does the curly Chinese stuff sell for? If the price is comparable it would be ironic if you were importing Chinese but not Canadian.
Jim
Jim ,
The norm here in Oregon is a 7 ply 3/4" , now and then we used to get 9 ply . I buy a much better then paint grade 7 ply panel for about $45 some times armour core for the same money .
The China ply retails here for $30 - $35 a sheet .So a savings of $15 per sheet is the moment of truth in the real world .
I toured a Columbia plywood mill in Klamath Falls , Oregon and they are capable of making very high quality products , much better then any of these cheap imports .
dusty
Can I ask a favor of everyone? Stop referring to "Chinese plywood" and start referring to "$30 plywood" instead. Unless someone can prove that a US made 8'x4' sheet of 3/4" plywood that retails for $30 won't have the same issues with warping, paper thin outer veneers, voids, delamination, and glues of questionable quality, I have to assume that the issue is not with the country of origin, but rather with woodworkers either being too cheap to buy quality plywood, or just plain making a bad purchase decision in the first place. In fact, I'm sure that a piece of $30 plywood without voids, with a decently thick outer veneer, and that won't warp CAN'T be made simply because if it could, some US company would do so, and dominate the plywood business by doing so.The ability of Chinese made woodworking items to be of good to excellent quality is a FACT -- look at Steel City tools, and I'm sure Sarge will back me up on this point. It's not a coincidence that Steel City machinery, despite being made in China, is not priced in Harbor Freight territory. Basically, you get what you pay for, and blaming the poor performance of cheap items on the country of origin is unfounded, and avoids the issue of woodworkers letting a "bargain" price get the better of them.
Your right in so much as if no one bought it it would not be an issue but that is not the case . With your line of thinking having a booby trap is fine as long as you don't trip the wire , Malarkey to that .Not all the plywood comes from China that is a fact .
Your point about if we could make a $30 piece of quality material we would capture the market is also true but the comparison of toxic products of unknown dangers to poor purchase decision is absurd .
These and any other un safe items should not be tolerated , period .
That is like saying you can buy this vehicle for 85% less than most any other in its class but it has a nasty habit of exploding in 9 out of 10 cases , so if you make a poor decision you deserve to be blown up , you don't really believe that do you ?
dusty
I appreciate the point you're trying to make, and I agree that buying cheap plywood should not result in exposure to high levels of formaldehyde.But the reason why cheap plywood has an issue with formaldehyde is simply that using urea formaldehyde glue is cheaper than the other types of glue that are used in manufacturing plywood, and that urea formaldehyde glue that is made without quality control for the levels of formaldehyde is cheaper than urea formaldehyde glue that does.Bottom line is, the fact that plywood that outgasses unacceptably high levels of formaldehyde comes from China stems from our willingness to buy based strictly on price irrespective of other issues. Poor quality control due to the desire to control the cost of manufacturing is not limited to China -- if you recall, E. coli has gotten into food products made here in the US over the past years for primarily the same reason. Should these things happen? No.
Should someone be exposed to high levels of formaldehyde because he thought he was getting a bargain? No.
Should a schoolkid get an E. coli infection because the school needed to find the cheapest source of beef for their lunch program? No.But this doesn't change the fact that it costs more for good quality control in the products that we buy.Bottom line is, if we would accept the fact that these days you need to spend more for good quality plywood, all of these complaints would go away, and we should accept the fact that this issue is common to all manufacturing, not just one country.
Bottom line is, if we would accept the fact that these days you need to spend more for good quality plywood, all of these complaints would go away, and we should accept the fact that this issue is common to all manufacturing, not just one country... Wilbur
****
First.. yes I have Chinese tools that are good quality for the money spent. They are very capable if quality control measures are in place.
With that said.. I build with solid wood and use maybe 6 sheets of 1/4 ply a year for dust shields.. etc... I am not a connoisseur of plywood and rely on my hard-wood supplier to have decent grade on hand as I have gained trust in them over 36 years. They sell to contractors and cabinet shops as their main-stay. They clearly mark the ply and you know what is domestic and what is Imported.
My problem not being a heavy user.. I was not aware of some the issues and the issues go far beyond price. If I had known last week.. I would have paid $100 a sheet to get domestic with assurance of no formaldehyde content. I could purchase enough this morning to last me the rest of my life that doesn't contain formaldehyde and may do just that. I don't care what the price is.. I'm willing to pay it.
But.... even though I am out of the loop by doing that... does it become just someone's else's problem to me? If my son purchases a house 10 years from now.. will he and his family have to wear vapor mask because the contractor had no choice to use it after the cheap forced the quality producers to close their doors?
I don't know the answer to that... but after Goggling the subject I do know much more today than I did last week and the issues go far beyond price alone. Illegal foresting.. unknown ingredients.. $$ and more $$.
I am very busy and this is all I have to say publicly other than I will not use Imported or domestic with formaldehyde. Whatever the price of good is what I will pay today. But..what will the future generations do if the industry is not regulated and the public is not aware of the issues. And there are indeed issues that go far beyond prices today.
I am done with the issue and with Imported ply. But the next time I purchase if I don't take care of my need today, I will be alert as to what the issues are and if they have been dealt with so I do have an alternative of saying yes or no thank you.
Regards...
Sarge..
wilbur,
Agreed , in general but part of what you said was not accurate .
The E coli that shows up even in our own plants or summer picnics is not put into your Mayonaise on PURPOSE , the China type ply is deliberately made with the ingredients and proportions , it is not an accident like food poisoning .
What meat processor would taint the product on purpose ?
The China ply is not just a matter of poor quality control , that would mean some batches were alright , it is coming out exactly the way they intend , no accident here , we all need to understand that .
I agree that quality controls need to be in place in all factories
We are accepting products with health risks all in the name of $$$$$$$
First our mills then our jobs and finally our health are at risk
dusty
$45 is about what I paid for 3/4" birch from China about three months ago. What do you think Canada has to pay in duty compared to China to get it into "the land of the free"?
NAFTA is supposed to mean that trade between the US, Canada and Mexico is free. However, lumber is a sore point. US manufacturers have been complaining for years that Canadian softwood manufacturers are government subsidized, and imposing tariffs on Canadian exports. That shouldn't apply to hardwood plywood, but who knows? Incidentally, lumber prices in Canada are generally higher than yours, like everything else. For some inexplicable reason, Canadian birch plywood costs twice as much again as the maple in my area. Go figure. I'm just happy I don't have to trip over the Chinese stuff in the lumberyard.
Jim
Problem solved for me.. I just didn't feel comfortable with the Chinese mystery ply.. so I called my long time hard-wood supplier to see if they had an alternative without any formaldehyde. Yep...
Columbian (nah.. not U.S.) but no formaldehyde and in several flavors. Went this morning to look and loaded 6 sheets of natural birch after seeing it. Solid poplar core and the veneer was excellent (of course it was thin.. but not as thin as the Chinese core on an all rice diet) and was very good over-all.
Took the Chinese back to exchange or told them just to keep it and give it to someone if they wish. $12 and some change refunded and paid $29 a sheet for the Columbian. Frankly, I was happy to pay the $29 as I would have paid $100 a sheet just for the satisfaction and peace of mind. Still getting the shellac... but that is norm for me on drawers anyway.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 3/21/2008 3:59 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
That could get real confusing! Columbia is alos a brand name for U.S. and Canadian-made ply, also formaldehyde free.
Jim
And let me tell you a thing or two about how much I don't know about plywood as maybe 6 sheets a year goes through my shop. Drawer bottoms and dust shield.. chest backs etc.. is about the size of it. But.. your post may have turned on a light bulb for me. And.....
The card-board that protecting the strapped bundle of the natural birch stated in very bold words... COLUMBIA..
Without any further thought my feeble mind registered the country of Columbia as it did not say Made in Columbia. When I called to check before I traveled the 12 miles... Jim just mentioned Columbia and again the country registered as I don't know squat about plywood outside of Georgia Pacific.
So... I suppose I have American made plywood made either in the U.S. or Canada. It was excellent grade.. and you sure could tell the difference brushing shellac as I just finished two coats on each side. I will go back and sand the show sides tomorrow and start padding cut shellac over those two fill coats.
"The lights have come on in Georgia". ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
I may go back and get a few more sheets for future use. They have a whole warehouse full of different size and species of Columbia. And if it comes from China is is clearly marked Import as that was stated to me by the old hands that have been around Suwanee Lumber.
Thank you very much as my day just got better knowing what I now know. I would have re-sawed and glued bottom drawer panels before I put my name on the crap I had from China. I don't want it in my shop and or even on the premises for that matter. :>)
Again.. thanks for the en-lightenment. Life is good once again.
Sarge...
Edited 3/21/2008 9:07 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
"The card-board that protecting the strapped bundle of the natural birch stated in very bold words... COLUMBIA"
Did it say COLUMBIA or COLOMBIA?
The country in South America is ColOmbia. The plywood manufacturer headquartered in Oregon is ColUmbia Forest Products.
-Steve
Yeah. That's where I buy my lOmber.
Columbia as the company in Oregon. I happened by Suwanee on Saturday to pick up a piece of ash ply for another project and just took the time to educate myself. I asked the sources for about all their species of solid stock and ply.
I've known these folks for years and they just sat me down with a cup of coffee and rattled them off with a number of other pertinent details thrown if for free. I should have probably inquired long ago.. but better late than never. And now I know a bit about sources.. manufacturers and their product. I won't let the info sit idle in the future.
Regards...
Sarge..
Here's Columbia's website:http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/Although I prefer to buy plywood from my hardwood supplier, sometimes on a weekend I need a couple of sheets right away, and they're not open, so I try to keep track of what the local big box stores are carrying. In my experience, it's inconsistent, but sometimes I do find some good stuff there, mostly from Columbia Forest Products. I've had good luck with Columbia's birch and maple ply—I usually use plywood for painted built-ins and the like—but you really do have to shop around. I have a couple of Lowe's and a couple of Home Depots within easy driving distance of where I live and work, and one of the HD's pretty consistently keeps a stock of Columbia plywood (labeled "domestic birch") alongside the garbage stuff. At the Lowe's down the road, I haven't seen any good plywood in over a year. Unfortunately, the price of the good stuff seems to be climbing. The last time I looked, it was selling for $65-$70 a sheet. About a year ago, I found a pile of domestic maple ply for $45-$50 a sheet at one of the Home Depots that now carries only junk. (I grabbed a bunch; I suspect somebody in the store put the wrong price on it, cuz it never happened again.)I don't know the buying habits of these chains, but when it comes to lumber they don't all seem to carry the same stock. IMHO, they're still worth keeping an on for when nothing else is open or somebody who doesn't know any better makes a pricing mistake. In my observation, when they do have good stuff it stays around for a little while. Most homeowners come in and see another stack of birch ply at half the price and think they're getting a good deal so they pass on the good stuff. Which may be one reason why so many of these stores don't bother stocking any anymore. Norman
Edited 4/1/2008 8:59 am ET by nboucher
Sarge
I think you made a wise decision.
Jeff
In my mind Jeff.. it was the "only" decision. Not just from the formaldehyde and glue gassing stand-point.. The stuff was just junk.. pure junk even without those issues. I would be embarrassed to sell.. promote or even consider using it on anything I signed.
The piece that I already cut is on the street waiting for the trash-man. I cut it into small pieces and put them in Hefty re-enforced bags to hide the fact it was ply. I was afraid that someone would come along (they always seem to do just that) .. find it and take it to use in or at their home. I want no part of that. Just my nature.
Highest regards and good luck...
Sarge..
Well, you get what you pay for :-)
I picked up some Chinese 3/4" plywood at a local supplier, it looked good, "tropical hardwood" veneer, sanded both sides. The light was kind of dim in the warehouse - now I know why. I'm not too sure about the inner plys, that is, the stuff between the voids. bark? sawdust? termite poop?. I'm operating on a pretty tight budget for cabinets in the wife's new laundry room, this stuff is "build it quick and paint it fast" project. It was only 8 bucks a sheet but with a good coat of paint to seal everything, it'll work.
Late last year I bought a couple of sheets of inexpensive Chinese 3/4" R Oak ply at my favorite lumberyard. While working with it I did something I have not done since I first began learning to work with wood many yrs ago: sanded thru the veneer. As an earlier relier stated, it must be no thicker than cigarette paper. Gary
You're absolutely right on the thickness of the face veneer. Sand gently :-). With all the voids, it doesn't hold screws very well either (Kreg pocket-hole system).
I bought some Lowes ply (3/4") for some cheap cabinets. I think I bought 6 sheets and 2 of them delaminated as I cut them up. I took the cut up pieces back to the store and they gave me 2 more sheets. One of those sheets was 0.66" thick, almost 1/8" thinner than the 3/4". I guess it was a sheet of 17mm ply. I knew what I was buying so I got what I paid for. My fault.
The house full of cabinets I made I bought the ply from the area plywood company. I have to take off work to go there but the prices are only slightly higher than the big box and the quality is far better. Plus, you walk in the office and 3 people ask if they can help you (and they can!!)
Jim
I'm with you on this one. I just bought 2 sheets for building a new router cabinet and this is the LAST plywood I buy at Lowes/HD.I ripped one of the sheets in 2 and about 1/2 of the total sheet was delaminated and missing a ply.
Steve
That's the same core of ply that put me in the hospital. The off gasing on that stuff is rediculous. I have done some research with all my recently found free time, as I haven't been able to work since getting out of the hospital. My supplier sent me 20 sheets of Alder ply, and since he doesn't stock Alder here in the midwest, he got it from a supplier in BC who uses a china ply core and veneers it with the Alder.
Your respirator filters are not capable of handling the off gasing, only the particulates. I wouldn't want you, or anyone else, to go through what I went through, as I was hovering near the "RIP" sign.
Please be careful, everyone.
Jeff
I was going to coat my drawer bottoms with 2 coats of shellac until I read your post. Now we are going with 4 coats of clear water-base poly.. both sides and edges.
Even though I would not be exposed to the quantities you were.. I have the time to do it. And I might just call my supplier to see if they have domestic birch on hand which they will. On second thought.. that's exactly what I am going to do regardless of how much it cost. Done deal....
That works out really well... trash pick-up day tomorrow in my hood!
Thanks for driving the final nail in the Chinese Coffin....
Sarge...
Edited 3/19/2008 12:18 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Two things, from his symptoms he may have been allergic to the wood dust, not the fumes from the glue, so there may not be an off gassing problem. Shellac is considered the best wood sealant commonly available.John White
Thanks John, as you are probably correct about the shellac sealing. I have had no reaction personally as when I sized it down. But.. in this case I will go the other route for as I cannot afford to take even a slight chance.
My wife lay on a respirator for 52 days with some un-known lung disease about 9 year ago at the ripe age of 39. She is 12 years younger than I. She was not expected to live as anti-biotics would not counter the infection that spread to both lungs. 8 chest tubes with 3 lung collapses and a lot of scar tissue latter.. the infection mysteriously just cleared and she woke up from a coma wanting her creidt card. :>)
So... to us a common cold is just an annoyance. To her it is more considering the nature of that scar tissue and loss of some of her lung capacity. Other than that she is normal.. retired from the State and draws full dis-ability on top of retirement.
I am a gambler.. but the difference in a professional gambler and an amateur is the amateur doesn't know when to quit either ahead or behind.
I will chunk the ply or give it away as I think you would now agree given the circumstances.. I'm well ahead and see no reason to take a chance on falling behind. Quitting time for the river-boat gambler...
Regards...
Sarge..
John
FWIW, and to be clear, I am not allergic to anything. They tested me for allergies to an entire fleet of things, manmade or otherwise. It was definately the offgasing of the glue used. I cut a piece of it last week, and had to run out of the shop, hacking and coughing, as my lungs had an immediate reaction to the cloud created, with a respirator on!!
You will never find another sheet of chinese plywood in my shop, again, and that's if I ever make another cabinet. As it stands right now, I cannot work in the shop with any fumes, as my lungs close up at the slightest irritation. My wife is applying the oil stain and, next week, with full oxygen head gear on, I will be applying water based lacquer to what may be my last cabinet job ever.
Jeff
what may be my last cabinet job ever
That would truly be a sad day as I know how much you like your work. We all will be praying that does not come to pass.
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks, Bob.
House and shop are going on the market next week. I'm not getting good results from my tests at the Pulmonary Specialist, and I'm being slowly "broken in" to the idea that my lungs may never be what they were. I have scar tissue showing up on MRI's of the lungs, and my capacity to get air has diminished. Any exposure to any fumes, and I have an immediate reaction.
This $hit is life altering, and I cannot stress enough to everyone out there how serious it is. Don't screw around with the lungs, man. You only get two!
Jeff
Frickin' formaldehyde glue
Jeff,
Will you still be able to do your sawyer gig?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Right now, everything is on hold. However, my love for wood is too great to stay away from at least sniffing it! I was able to do some handwork on a small table I'm building for myself (I've never needed a tv table more than now for my coffee cup!!) the last couple of days without incident. Hand planing was a breeze, and I used the bandsaw to cut some tapers on the legs, and I had no issues with the dust (with my mask on). My wife will put some tung oil on it for me, and I'll spray it next week with the other stuff.
I still want to do the sawmill gig, very badly indeed, and I doubt that cutting wood outside with plenty of fresh air will be an issue. I've got a commercial property for my mudjacking business, and I was just eyeing out a nice corner that would do nicely as a sawmill shed, so we'll see how fast I make that happen.
Lots of changes occurring in my life right now, and I'm still getting used to breathing with a little discomfort, so we'll take it slow and easy and figure it out as we go. That's all I usually do, anyway!!
Thanks ole' buddy,
Jeff
Jeff,I've been following closely what you've written up 'till now, and I really feel the crisis you're going through. Strange thing about the internet - for all the anonymity it provides, we still feel a real connection between certain people that have never actually met, and know next to nothing about. But in any case, if there's anything this community can do for you, or with you, then toss it out there because I think I'm not the only one who'd like to help in some way but don't know how.As John W. said, look into the lawsuit option, even if you don't feel 100% comfortable with it. You can always use the money to support some worthy cause, and maybe also go a small way towards keeping stuff like this from happening to others.And on a more personal level, you've obviously got the basic mental sanity to get through this in a positive way. "Through this" doesn't mean back to what was, but on to the next phase. Most of us hit some midlife crisis around 40; yours is a full-blown hurricane. But every stick, even this one, has TWO ends. With more time on your hands, don't hesitate to write...regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David, and to All,
You guys are the best. The support you've given me, even through this little 17" HP monitor, has made me feel better about things than you can all possibly imagine.
A little about me......
I'm 6'1" tall, and 245 lbs (I recently lost a biscuit or two). I was a hockey player and a football player. I was raised by the school of hard knocks, my father is a retired MP, and in general, have always been considered the first guy you'd want with you going into a brawl, and the last guy you'd want hitting you. That being said, these last few months have, for the first time, sapped my strength, and left me feeling weak and vulnerable. I live out in the country with my wife and kids, and pretty much keep to myself these days. My few friends from high school days are all over the country, and I see one of them for lunch about once a month or so. Welcome to "married with children".
Having the written words of support to read from you folks has been more than touching to me, and I just want you all to know how great it makes me feel, and what a picker upper it is.
So, I'm hoping for the best, and time will tell if I get to continue to do the work I love so much in the woodshop. However, if I can't, you guys will get first dibs on all my tools...........ha ha ha!!!
Your humbled friend,
Jeff
Jeff,
I've been following this discussion from the beginning, and have been very interested in how it has twisted and turned. I may have something to add, mostly on a personal note.
In 1985 I was a trim carpenter, making top wages in my area. My partner and I had a lot of work, and I loved doing what I was doing - couldn't imagine doing anything else, in fact. Getting to work with tools and wood every day, driving around in a pickup? Dressed in a flannel shirt? What's the downside?
One morning I woke up in terrible pain. There were lumps of tissue under the skin over my wrists that prevented their movement. I thought I had overstressed my joints, so I went to work that day and vowed to take it easy. But the pain and swelling got worse, and radiated into my hands and elbows. At the end of the day I could barely drive home because I couldn't bend my arms. That was the last day I did carpentry work.
I was diagnosed with rhematoid arthritis. Over the next year I was was put on every medication they had to treat the disease at that time, including steroids. Nothing worked, and my joints became more painful and inflamed. Feeding myself was a real problem, as my arms just would not bend. I had to make toast, butter it, and then push it to the edge of a table so I could get at it with my mouth.
Like you, my spirits plummeted. I had no job, couldn't work, and every move I made hurt terribly. The weight of the sheet lying on top of me in bed at night hurt. The medications and visits to the doctor were very expensive, and they didn't seem to help anything. Things were looking very bleak.
I didn't experience any miracles; no overnight "cures." But I gradually got better. Today, my family doctor thinks I may have been diagnosed incorrectly, because I have no symptoms of the RA disease. More than anything, I'm very lucky. The question remains, however, what I really did have - and if it will ever return..
Like you, I'd always been an athlete - though I was a runner, not a football or hockey player. As my symptoms regressed, I was able to exercise a bit, and I discovered bicycling. As a non-weightbearing sport it was ideal for what I was going through, and ever since it has become a passion. Currently, I ride about 4,000 miles a year, I just "retired" from doing a five year stint as the editor of my local bike club's newsletter, and I still lead two 30 mile weeknight rides for the club. Bicycling has been good to me.
All the while this disease I had was going on, I changed considerably - from an emotional standpoint, certainly. I had always worked two jobs, day and night, probably drank more than I should have, and was a tense, irrascible person. No longer.
I gave all that up, and decided that the most important thing I have in this life is my own good health. My wife runs a very close second. But, I realized that in order to have a good life I have to take care of myself. And that involves everything we're told to do all the time: eat right, get a good amount of sleep, and exercise. These things - not work - are now my priorities. You can't do anything if you're not healthy, so that has to come first.
It's been a real transformation. I don't think I was overly unhealthy before, but now I consider a healthy life of the utmost importance. And I don't know that there is a moral to this story, other than that the way you are right now is probably not the way you're going to be forever. As another poster mentioned, bodies have a propensity to heal - especially if you treat them right and allow them to do so.
As to looking into the source of the problem you're experiencing, I - and I'm sure every other woodworker on this site - would appreciate knowing more about the plywood that seems to have been a factor in your respiratory distress. Plus, I'm sure you'd like to get some answers as well.
Good luck to you Jeff, and please keep us up to date on how you're doing..
Yours, ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Zolton
Thanks for sharing your inspirational story. I'll definately keep the forum up to date as things occur.
Jeff
Jeff,
I'm really sorry to hear that this has turned out the way it did. You do some excellent work and it will be a loss to your customers if you cannot continue to do it.
What are your plans now? Do you still plan on cutting and selling lumber?
Keep us informed on your situation. You have a lot of friends here who really do care.
Rob
Rob
That's some of the nicest words anyone has said to me. It means alot.
Thank you!!
I'm a little lost right now, and a little emotional about the prospects of not being able to do what I love to do, but I have a good feeling that it'll all work out, somehow.
I'll definately keep you guys posted, and definately want to still have a gathering this summer if we can.
Jeff
I would have a lab figure out what was in the plywood and then talk to a lawyer. I'm familiar with the reactions that some people have to formaldehyde glue fumes, I'm one of them, the reaction you experienced would suggest something far more toxic.John W.
John,
Thanks for your input, but I'm not the type of American who believes in lawsuits. A lawsuit isn't going to make my lungs any better, and I'm not an ambulance chaser. It's just the way I was raised, but I believe our great country would be much greater without lawyers who chase damages. Just my personal viewpoint, and a political one, and I don't want this thread moved to the Cafe', so enuff from me on that! I've been fortunate enough in life with 2 successful business's for a very long time to have made my fair share of the American dream. Perhaps it's time to go fishing.
Jeff
Edited 3/19/2008 6:24 pm ET by JeffHeath
Something highly dangerous, that shouldn't be there, is in that plywood, possibly because some person or company simply didn't give a damn, or found they could make a little more money if they used a tainted material that should have been thrown away. You were injured, permanently, by their gross negligence or greed, why shouldn't you be compensated at least for your financial losses? That isn't ambulance chasing.If you don't press your case they'll just keep doing it and more people will be injured. If you don't want the money fine, but you are in a unique position to get a real, but invisible, hazard removed from the market before more fellow woodworkers are injured.John White
Point well made. I'll look into it.
Jeff
Jeff,Thanks for considering my point of view. I have had a chance or two to sue someone and never did it because the other party just made an honest mistake, one I could have made in similar circumstances. In this case it is possible that someone knew that they were selling a dangerous product, like the tainted cat food or poisonous toothpaste recently in the news, and this puts a entirely different light on the subject.Good luck in any case, from my experience the human body can often recover remarkably from injuries over time, don't be discouraged by things as they are now.Sincerely, John White
John
After careful consideration overnight, with alot of thought, I believe that it is worth the effort to at least have the plywood checked out. I can't think of too many things that would make me feel better (other than a good set of lungs) than doing some damage, however minute, to the Chinese effort of taking over the economy in our great country. It really tans my a$$, if you know what I mean.
I'll be checking into it, and will report back with whatever results I uncover.
Jeff
John,
Just last night there was something on the local news about some healthcare product that is being shelved because of contamination of some sort, http://www.wmur.com/health/15508022/detail.html.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/20/2008 12:07 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
John ,
It certainly would be great if some positive changes were made .
But the international trade rules and laws may not be designed to be user friendly as we are learning . Until the import products meet or exceed standards that stateside mills must conform to or at least have any standards to meet this will continue un checked .
Perhaps a person as well connected as your self could be helpful to all of us concerned , maybe find someone who cares or the right agency , DEQ or such . I thought the hazard sheets that detail the contents of products was mandatory upon request , maybe that is only for U.S. made items ?
The ol mighty dollar is likely the culprit , heck as far as we know some of the China companies could actually be owned by American interests .
I have heard some China ply may have no product codes or stamping or manufacturer / factory ID on the sheets , how could you track them ?
Most U.S. mills spread color coded metallic chips in the layer of glue between plies to be used for accurate identification purposes for the case of product liability and failures . Do the imports do the same ?
At first I thought it was the material in the core that smelled so strong then after many individuals chimed in the glue seems to be suspect . Many U.S. plywood has had the Formaldehyde levels made user safe and clean so when we cut into this stuff it is a big shock to our system . I am not sure if the glue is different or the fact that with 13 or 14 plies instead of 7 could be twice the amount of glues .
I have never noticed 9 ply 1/2" Apple ply smelling bad nor have I noticed Baltic Birch products with the smell , so we know it can be done .
You would think the more plies the more time and labor and the more glue and a higher cost , you would think , so how can the product sell for a third less after being shipped half way around the world .
thanks for any and all help you may be able to lend on this one
regards dusty
To the best of my knowledge: All of the standards are voluntary. The manufactureres, suppliers retailers comply because that is what they need to do to survive and make a profit.
The legal, system is part of that. Sue the retailer. They will know who they bought it from, and in turn sue them.
Our part of this is to know and check for grade markings. And, shop knowledgably. Home Desperate can get away with a lot of the substandard products they sell, becuase the average guy hasn't a clue.
The formaldehyde standards for certain materials, including much of what goes into home construction, are not voluntary they are legal requirements.In the situation being discussed here, there is no information to suggest that the problem is even being caused by formaldehyde. If Chinese exporters can intentionally put melamine in food additives and anti freeze in toothpaste to make an extra buck, then almost anything can be in the plywood. This is why I suggested getting a laboratory to test the plywood.John White
Dusty,Unfortunately I am now self employed and can't devote a lot of time to technical and legal research that doesn't return some income, that's just reality.I suggested that Jeff should get some legal advice and have the plywood tested because right now nobody has any idea what is in the plywood, it might be something much worse than just excess formaldehyde from a badly mixed glue batch. Currently, after the repeated problems with imported products containing intentionally added toxic substances, it shouldn't be too hard to find several agencies that would take an interest in this.It is also very likely that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of sheets of this plywood out there and a lot more injured woodworkers who don't even realize why they are sick. Again if legal steps are taken these people can be found and possibly helped and their collective problems will make a stronger case.John White
But, what if filing a suit led to changes that saved 100 (or 1000) people around the country from problems similar to yours? You can give any money to charity if that's the part that bothers you.
I'm not a lawyer by the way.
Steve , Jeff alluded to the fact that it just may be a good idea to send the material to a lab and take things one step at a time .He does have an open mind and btw most of us myself included agree with your thoughts on this matter .
dusty
Steve
Read past the post of mine that you're responding to. We've covered this already, and I'm in agreement. I am going to begin the investigative process on Monday, starting with an analysis of the plywood. Before I communicate with the lowest form of life, I want my facts straight.
Jeff
If you are intent about "sealing" the wood, dewaxed shellac is a much more effective sealer than waterborne acrylic.Howie.........
Thanks for the confirmation to what John W. said, Howie.. I was not aware of how well the shellac obviously seals fumes until mentioned here by John and now you... I am certainly no finish guru even though I have applied them for 36 years. Messed up some good pieces with my $39 Earl Shieb's Paint Jobs. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
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