Hello all,
I am considering buying a 1960’s Craftsman 10″ Radial Arm Saw ad was wondering if anyone had any advise. This is the model which has a router attachment and can of course be used for cutting dados.
I guess I’m most wondering if it will have sufficient power being an old machine.
Cheers,
Douglas
“It’s time to stop Drinking and Dreaming and start Creating and Completing”
Replies
Douglas, it's a great tool. stay away from routing and planing-not enough speed- rip only narrow stock and nothing over 5/4. The cross cut /rabbet/ angle-bevel cuts are super if you keep it bench marked true with a good rafter square(not the $15 stamped steel ones a HD). A good price is $100 to 125 or 150 if really clean and not wore out.
If you have room drop the legs and build it into a long bench with a 12" simple chop saw in the same line and you will have it all. Pat
Edited 10/13/2006 12:48 am ET by PADDYDAHAT
Edited 10/13/2006 12:50 am ET by PADDYDAHAT
Thanks guys, that's the sort of advise I was looking for. Both of you say there it strugles with thick stock. What voltage are you running the saw on? I am in teh UK so will be running the saw on 220 volts. Do you think that will improve things?
Cheers,
- Douglas"It's time to stop Drinking and Dreaming and start Creating and Completing"
Doug, the voltage will not give you more power just an easier/perhaps cooler running motor. 110v at 13 amps = 220v at 6.5 amps. Pat
Your saw, if it was made for the American market, is probably set up for 110 volt, 60 cycle current only with no way of being rewired for 220 volt 50 cycle current that is used in the UK. If it can be converted to 220 volt it will say so on the rating plate usually by indicating it is "110/220 volt" in which case the conversion is easily made by switching electrical connections inside of a small access plate on the end of the motor.
You can get an add on voltage converter if the voltage setting on the motor can't be changed internally, but that won't solve the mismatch in frequency. While some 60 cycle motors will start and run on 50 cycle it is very rough on the motor and will reduce the available power on a machine that was a bit underpowered in the first place.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
I forgot to say that along with the recall, since they can't fit the proper blade guard to the saw Sears is offering $100 to reclaim it. My old saw is still worth more than that to me so I didn't take them up on the offer. More on the voltage - I do not think the saw is can be changed to 220 volts. Also, the fifty cycle current would be a problem.
All, Just to let you know the saw is set up to run on either 110 or 140 volts. This is not a problem. I was just currious if it would run better on 220/240 than 110 as most things do. Thanks for all of your advise, I do have a large cabinet saw as well as a spindle moulder, and planer, and band saw and morticer and... etc. all running on 417v 3 phase but I have fallen in love with this old Craftsman and thought it would be a nice converstaion piec and usefull for cross cutting and cutting dados... which it sounds like everyone has confirmed.
Cheers,
- Douglas"It's time to stop Drinking and Dreaming and start Creating and Completing"
Doug if you run a 60Hz induction motor on 50Hz there are three things which happen: the motor runs 1/6 slower so it runs at 3,000 rpm instead of 3,600 rpm - not really too much of a problem; the motor loses 1/6 of it's power, possibly more depending on the toirque curve - so a weak saw will get weaker; the motor's fan runs 1/6 slower, too - this is the serious one as the reduced cooling means the windings will get hotter, quicker and the insulation will break-down faster over time. Running the saw via a centre-tapped 110volt site transformer will not be a problem, however - I do this with some P-C stuff I bought in the States when I worked there, but getting the saw through the PUWER stuff might well be (I'm assuming that with 415 volt 3-phase you're trade, but maybe I'm wrong there). If you really want a 1950/1960's look RAS, a Wadkin BRA (which look very similar to the Original Saw Company's products) may be a better and more effective way to go.
Scrit
Edited 10/14/2006 9:10 pm by Scrit
"rip only narrow stock" . I guess we surely disagree on this point. In my opinion, you should not rip narrow stock unless you build special fixtures for safe operation. It is much safer to rip wide stock than narrow on a RAS.
I personally don't have a radial arm saw, although I used them often as a beginner, all sizes, all qualities. I don't believe I ever see them in any professional shops used for anything other than cutting boards to rough length.
I also don't believe that there is any reason to use one, especially in an amateur shop. Make a sled for your table saw to do crosscuts. It is much more accurate and safe. If you don't have a table saw, I would recommend spending your money on one rather than the radial arm saw. Then you can safely do ripping and molding too.
The salesman/expert for Forrest Saw Blades tells everyone at his demonstrations that most people use the radial arm saw incorrectly, which leads to the kickback accidents. He asserts that the saw should be pulled all the way out prior to inserting the board to be cut, then the saw will be pushed into the board, against the saw teeth, avoiding the self feeding problem that cuts fingers off. I agree with him. It also cuts more accurately this way because the saw is not being pulled around by the teeth.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
The Forest saw expert is wrong I have owned a commercial duty RAS for over thirty years the correct method for crosscutting is to pull the saw through the work,pushing the saw risks lifting the work off the table and throwing it over the fence. Pulling the saw the blade is climb cutting pushing the saw the blade is feed cutting occasionally cross cutting dadoes are better fed cut ie pushed provided the stock is well held down.You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
I'd agree with that, but it amazes me that the "safe" technique for using an SCMS is the exact opposite!
Scrit
It is interesting the difference being that the saw on a slider can rise up out of the cut if pulled towards you but cant on a RAS
You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
Edited 10/15/2006 7:59 pm ET by Bolts
The difference is that a sliding miter saw (SMS) plunges into the work from the top so most of the force is pushing the board back. By the time the plunge operation is complete the board has been cut 9" across so the pushing operation cant lift the edge. When pushed, a RAS hits the edge of the board first and the teeth are moving more UP than BACK and is more likely to lift the board. A SMS can lift the board if you are cutting a narrow board (3 inches or so) and draw the blade all the way back and plunge down before you push in. But it is less likely to happen if the board is narrow and when the blade is drawn all the way out there is only about 3" between the blade and fence.
Does that make sense?Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mudman,
It would unless you were cutting a narrower board.
It isn't always 1 x 12's that a guy is cutting.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Good point, Bolts.
To the rest of you,
And the Forrest guy did say it, and demonstrated it, and I'm not the only guy that saw it. He didn't just make it up that moment, but made a big deal out of telling everyone that they were probably using their saws incorrectly. It was a part of the whole routine that obviously he said every half hour, show after show.
And there is no way that it is the same thing as putting a board into the back of the table saw blade doing it his way. In fact, if you are pulling the blade back through the board, then it's the same as feeding a table saw backwards. This is why the saw tries to self feed.
And finally, if any of you are getting great cuts, good for you. We all end up figuring out what works best for each of us with the tools we have to use. That's how woodworking is. About 30 years ago I spent a couple of years doing some incredibly accurate work building staircases on site (making all of the parts and pieces myself rather than just assembling mass produced parts like is so common today) and for a long time used a Porter Cable skill saw screwed to the bottom of a piece of 1/2" plywood for a table saw.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
I am not talking about climb cutting versus ...... whatever not climb cutting is. I am talking about the path of the blade. Feading from behind, the rotation of a table saw blade will lift the piece up and over the blade. the same thing is hapening when you push a RAS. The blade contacts the wood and the upward motion will try to lift the stock off the table. When a RAS is pulled through the cut the blade is forcing the stock down into the table and against the fence.
What show did you see this, and who was giving the demonstration? I would not expect that you remember his name but was he a sales man or what. Forrest dosent have that many employees and they dont really have a sales force either so I am curious.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Hal,
I have been wandering when folk were going to pick up on that , er advice, from the Forrest guy. I don't agree with the advice, to put it mildly, but let us say that I had a moment of weakness and decided to use his method: I have my stack of random width boards waiting to crosscut-some of them are 12 footers.... now I have to pull out the saw head to an estimated distance to clear, then I have to snivel that 12 footer between fence and blade??? That is daft, man. The back of the blade is waiting to do a damage....
Somebody mentioned a Wadkin B.R.A -now that is what I mean by a decent saw- it is heavy and will not climb cut. However if folks will put their parts where a blade is to go there is going to be blood....
I always think it is unfortunate when folk fail to get the benifits of good machines due to scare stories/ industry fairy tales etc- the shaper is another example of this. Amen and HALlelujah, brother.Philip Marcou
Philip,
You are right about the hassle of doing things this way. That is another reason I don't have RA saw.
A good friend restored a couple of large Comet saws a few years ago and I used them regularly. They were heavy and worked well. I personally just don't have any use for them.
The production shops that I know of have all gone to upcut saws with Tiger Stops. Put in the board, step on the button, it cuts the board. Done. They are very accurate. And anyone that can make a taco at Taco Bell can do it.
Hal
Hal,you have been badly misinformed- THERE IS NO ONE AT TACO BELL THAT CAN MAKE A TACO OR BURITO AS ORDERED- I have NEVER received, at the drive in, what I ordered so on the rare occasion that I visit with them, I park the truck and watch my ticket go down the line appending corrective instructions as required.
On a more serious note, I have been using an old heavy 1 1/2 hp sears RAS since the late '60's for every task you can think of with great success. The first key item is that a proper blade for crosscut must have a serious negative rake. What that does is prevent climb as you pull the blade across the stock as well as push the stock firmly to the fence insuring no lateral movement. That forrest story gave me a shiver because I know that they know better than that. A negative rake blade is also strongly advised for the chop saws. (have you ever seen the tooth rake announced on any blade at Lowseys or home despot?)
Note-theft of thread!
I would be delighted to see how anyone has built their RAS and chop saw bench as it's one of the key areas of my future shop using my RAS and a Dewalt #705. it will fit in nicely in the set back along the side on the garage end. All the best, Pat
DearPat
Apparently the forest people don't know better than that if they are simply using that as a sales pitch what can we all say.You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
Bench is 16' long, out of view to the right is a Delta 13 spindle line borer. All tables and fences are aligned. Crude but works well for me. There is another 4' of space to the left of the bench.
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Edited 10/17/2006 4:14 am by dgreen
DG, thanks for the pic of that "gorilla" of a saw- a beauty, I see three 3/4 mdf box cabinets ply and melamine topped with two stout bridge shelves cleted to saw/table surface height(6' clear space- 8'bench-RAS-8'bench-CHOP-4'bench-4' to garage door-6miles to the Clinch Mts) with a 6" riser fence and simple hang down stops. 4"and 2 1/2" DC to both and a blank 4" port for end of run clean out-expansion or bench use. 20"h x 16" deep of stick lumber stored above. All suggestions or avoidances welcome. Each decision seems to generate at least 4 more questions. All the best. Pat
The Forrest guy wasn't selling negative hook blades for this. I think he was selling his woodworker II, but I really can't remember. It was about 5 years ago.
Hal
I agree with the post that said "the Forest saw expert was wrong about crosscutting on the RAS. A good way to avoid the saw climbing into the work too fast is to push the saw to the rear of the arm, line up your stock for a crosscut and with your operating arm locked in a straight position, rotate your upper body , pulling the saw through the cut. With the arm straight, the saw cannot come forward without pushing your whole upper body. This will prevent 95 percent of cases where the saw jumps into the work. This tip was shown to me by a DeWalt rep many years ago and is what I taught my students for years.
I can't believe any one at Forrest would say something like that. The danger of pushing a RAS into the cut is that it WILL lift the board at the begining of the cut. It would be the same if you fed from the backside of a table saw. I bet you misunderstood and he was talking about RIPPING with a RAS. Because it is not uncomun for users to feed the wrong way when ripping on a RAS saw. And when ripping you do feed the board from the "back side" of the saw. Radial arm saws do not walk excessively into a cut unless you have the wrong blade. I run a 10" Forest Dado on a 50 year old 14" monster saw cutting 3/4" dados all the time.
You are somewhat right about pro shops. Around here there are shops that dont have a RAS or dont use them for more than rough sizing and then there are shops that have 3 or 4 large RASs that are used all the time. Typically the larger custom shops use them and the kitchen cabinet shops dont.
As I mentioned I have a 1955 Dewalt 3 horse 14" GA. It is the second most used machine in the shop. It is more accurate that the miter saw and as accurate as the TS. For cross cutting and cross dadoing it is faster, safer, and more accurate. Faster because you dont have to move the work piece as much, this is especially true when you are dadoing a 7' tall library unit. It is much safer when you are cross cutting large wide pieces; having 16" or 12" against the fence and 3 feet hanging off the table is not comfortable with or without a sled. And sleds are a PITA. It is more accurate because it is too easy to let the piece shift or angle away from the fence on a saw causing an imperfect cut.
I am not saying that table saws are unsafe for these operations, I can, and have, done it many times before I had a RAS, but it is a lot easier to make these mistakes on the TS. Cutting your hand off with a RAS is no more likely than with a sliding miter saw or a jointer, or a table saw for that matter. The RAS got its bad reputation from mis-use and from the "contractors" models sold from the early 80s to today.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
The guy from Forrest is an idiot.
Wow, that's harsh, man.
Could have been a Rhodes Scholar for all I know.
Hal
"Could have been a Rhodes Scholar for all I know."
So was Clinton, wasn't he? Would you settle for "intelligent idiot"? ;-)
Well by now we all know it could be much worse than Clinton. Although some took longer to figure it out than the rest of us.
I actually have a cousin that was a Rhodes Scholar. He isn't selling saw blades or working for the government.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
The guy from Forestwas a salesman we had a prime minister who was a Rhodes scholar he was a salesman too.You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
A salesman can't sell anything to people that aren't buying.
W, I agree with ya 110%. It was a poor choice of words on my part. I ment to infer staying away from large and long sheet stock as it's hard to control as opposed to sizing smaller sections. Sorry guys&gals, Pat
Doug, I am a great lover of radial arm saws, even today when it would seem that they are thoroughly discredited amongst the general woodworm populace.
"They are dangerous", that is the cry. Well I agree, but only so far as the light weight supposedly multi purpose types- like the one you mention. These are just too light and flexible, so that if you do anything unthinking or there is a catch the head just shoots back and you may be caught. As for attaching routers, again they are just too light.
I would advise against that one. If you must have a radial then it is best to go heavy and industrial-then it will have proper guards, be accurate and do well what it is supposed to do- cross cut and do dadoes when fiited with suitable tooling.
i inherited a late 50's - early 60's 10" craftsman radial arm saw from my grandfather. It's built like a tank with a cast iron arm and super heavy column...the beast weighs a freaking ton. It has a 2HP 110/220 direct drive motor that is a real horse. I have it wired 220 and have it set up to cut 90 degrees only....the saw works like a champ....
the switch was tempermental so i replaced it with a good magnetic switch...i replaced all of the old wiring while i was at it...and i put on a new table and put it in the middle of a cross cut station with 12' of table and kreg fence and sliding stops to the left and 8' to the right. it shares the setup with a SCMS on the left and a CMS on the right....
saw was recalled because of the insufficient blade guard...there is also no brake so the blade will spin for several minutes after you stop the saw....
Regrettably I am 16 years late to this forum on RASs. I have a Sears RAS circa 1974 with the cast iron arm and iron post. I was going to get rid of it in favor of the new Bosch miter saw. After reading these feeds, however, I may simply integrate the two saws in a single bench setup and use the RAS for rough cut offs. With regard to ripping, I tried that in 1974 when I bought the saw using a set of one-way-wheeled hold downs. It was the scariest thing I've ever done with any tool since the blade kept wanting to pick up the board and heave it back into my face. After doing it a couple of time I found another way to rip. This is an old feed but it's a pretty good forum.
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