Friends,
I saw a tool last week, and am absolutely intrigued with it. It has a handle which is 15″ long, and a blade which is three inches long. The blade is a LARGE version of the typical modern “chip carving” knife blade. This tool is big and heavy. The handle is turned, and is between 1.5″ and 2″ in diameter.
The owner of the tool wrote to the Pfeil company, which made it. They said that they made it for Woodcraft in 1975, and that it is called a “shoulder knife”.
I looked up “shoulder knife” on Google, and got three types of things:
– a knife for use by chefs for use on certain cuts of meat.
– a military style knife that is worn in a sheath hanging from the shoulder
– a knife used in France for making marquetry, which has a long handle, which is rested on the shoulder for leverage in making the cuts.
Do any of you know anything about the 1975 Pfeil “shoulder knife”, or about shoulder knives in general?
Thank you.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Mel,
I think you'll find reference to it in Fine Woodworking, May - 1980. It was used by Antonio Barili in 1502!
Not sure if this will work:
http://books.google.com/books?id=OLXYmCfnkFoC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=shoulder+knife+for+marquetry&source=web&ots=PnBOICq_3x&sig=KV3FmRbLqFdgWFMsFn4OK9QOGDI#PPA38,M1
If not google "shoulder knife for marquetry"
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Thank you for that reference. I had actually read the same one last night, as I did a very thorough Google search. Unfortunately, I could come up with no photos of a shoulder knife.It is interesting that Pfeil actually manufactured shoulder knives for Woodcraft in 1975, since according to the article you referenced, there is no longer a need for a BIG knife in marquetry, since we now use thin veneers. I guess they realized that shortly after they started manufacturing them, and they stopped. However, the Pfeil shoulder knife is a thing of beauty, even if it is not terribly useful.My interest in the Pfeil shoulder knife is not for marquetry, but rather for LARGE chip carving -- the kind that was done in Germany, Switzerland and Scandinavia on the fronts of buildings. The blade on the Pfeil shoulder knife is identical to a chip carving blade, just MUCH MUCH bigger. I want to try my hand at such BIG chip carving. I recently translated a book, Das Kerbschnitzen, from German to English because it has a chapter on carving the facades of buildings. it shows photos (not close-ups) and describes craftsmen using a 15" long knife, with a handle similar to the Pfeil shoulder knife, being used in this endeavor. However, in describing the knife, they said that it uses the same identical blade as the smaller hand-held chip carving knife. The longer handle is used for leverage. That seems a bit strange to me because that kind of leverage on a small blade seems destined to waste a lot of blades. Who knows? I am continuing my research. Also, the owner of the Pfeil shoulder knife is a chip carver and he bought it on EBAY, because he also thought it was a chip carving tool. He is going to lend me the knife to make a copy of it. Not being a knife-maker, I have found a retired guy who has a lot of experience in knifemaking, and he is willing to work with me to make two of them. He wants one too. I guess there is a bit of the collector in all of us. After I make this tool, I will post photos and descriptions of the process on KnotsI actually plan to use it to see how it works in making the large letters that would go on the fronts of buildings. I also plan to try to use a mill knife for the same reason, as Butz has described. Also, I am going to make a tool as described in the German book that I described above. Then I will try all three to see how they fare in incising large letters in wood. Why am I doing this? For the same reason that people clime Everest -- because it's there. It just looks interesting, and I am puzzled by how the process was done. Other people are puzzled by how the Druids made Stonehenge. We all have problems.Let's see how much interest there is in this issue. There is a possibility that this thread will rightfully disappear after this post. OF course, there is a possibility that there is so much interest in chip carving the fronts of buildings that this thread will break the 300 mark for posts. Let's see.I thank you for the help.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
That damn thing doesn't exist!
I'm usually pretty good at finding things on the WEB, but this one's a show stopper. Maybe someone elase will have better luck. I have a friend who has a 40' trailer load of old tools. We've been waiting for good weather so we can have a look inside.
You never know, as the tools belonged to his father who was, among other things, a wood carver.
Maybe we'll get lucky,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Thanks for trying. I tried also. I spent hours on Google, and then I tried some German search engines and tried it in German, as well as in German and in English on the Google site. I have also checked out websites on antique tools. NOTHING, Niente, nada, nichts!
Wie shade! Quel domage. Che peccato. I have not given up. I am also persuing the idea of tools used in the history of chip carving (Das Kerbschnitzen) in Germany, Switzerland and Norway. Sooner or later, I am going to find more on it. With all of those buildings in Europe with BIG carved incised letters and numbers, someone must have written about the tools and techniques used to do it. By the way, my daugher-in-law works at Google. Unfortunately she cant tell me what she does there. Obviously she is not specializing in searching for information on old tools. If your friend finds something in his trailer, please let me know.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Look up Canadian Woodworking, March 2007 newsletter.
The supplier "Langevin & Forest" in Montreal have announced the Pfeil shoulder knives.
View ImageMontreal based Langevin & Forest have added several new product lines for 2007.These include the new Incra LS Super System 2000 precision fence for router tables, drill presses or band saws. It enables precise fence movements of up to 1/1000". (We`ll be looking at the Super System in the June/July issue of Canadian Woodworking Magazine).View ImageThey have expanded their line of Pfeil carving tools, including the new shoulder knives. Shoulder knives are particularly suited for making ornaments. The long and slender ash handle rests against the carver`s shoulder allowing the blade to move with precision and little effort. The shoulder knife is available with a straight or curved blade.
I think this is what you are looking for - Yes?
Mike
Mike,
Wow. You have solved the mystery of the Pfeil shoulder knives! Thank you very much. This proves that even the most obscure woodworking questions can be answered by the experts on Knots. I am in your debt. I will look up the Langevin and Forest company and see if I can buy one of these things reasonably. But it still would be fun to make one.
Thank you again.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Thanks for calling me an expert.
But serendipity played a large role in this one, I just received the March newsletter and this was so memorable, that when I saw your question - voila!
Surprised that a search of the Pfeil website did not turn this up.
Also, I have found that Pfeil is very protective of its markets, while I can buy pfeil in Canada, and bring it home from Chippin Away in Kitchener. They cannot either advertise nor sell across the border for fear of losing their pfeil franchise.
I would be interested to see if Langevin & Forest are willing to sell cross border.
I would also be interested in what you do with the knife. Picture does not look like the right way to use it, but?
Let me know how it works out.
Mike
Mike,
I found the Langevin and Forrest website, and I did a search on "Pfeil", and found a "ciseau d'epaule". It is very good that I studied French in 1956 and 1957. Laissez les bon temps roullez! I called them and they are willing to sell one to me.I want to use it to make incised lettering, in which the letters are up to 12" tall. This is chip carving on a large scale. From what I have learned, the letters are carved with regular v-tools and chisels, and a tool like this is used to clean up the cuts. THis was done in Germany, Switzerland and Norway on the fronts of buildings in previous centuries. Now it is time for the US to catch up and make some buildings with large chip carvings on them.Of course you are an expert. (Certainment) We are all expert in something.
You have made my day.
Merci beaucoups.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Me Again,
Trying to get to 300. In case you didn't know, it's called a schultermesser. Also, I wanted to summarize my emails to/from Roy Underhill, with help from W. Patrick Edwards (http://www.WPatrickEdwards.com) so all could get the info.
I believe it's called a schultermesser
During the Italian Renaissance there are illustrations which show this knife. The process of "Tarsia Certosina" is described in Pierre Ramond’s book, "Marquetry" and the illustration on page 12 of Volume I (the three volume "Masterpieces of Marquetry" also by Ramond) shows this knife. Further, on page 22 of Yannick Chastang’s excellent work, "paintings in wood" (published by the Wallace Collection, London in 2001) a series of photos show Mr. Chastang using such a knife, over his shoulder, to incise cut marquetry.
This knife, and the process of Tarsia Certosina was quickly replaced after the general adoption of the fret saw blade.
Also be aware that Roy is writing a tool dictionary and the schultermesser will be part of it.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
With the interest that shoulder knives generates, I wouldn't be surprised if this thread hits 3000.As you said, the German word for shoulder knife is schultermesser. The French word is ciseau d'epaule. The Italian word is: lama della spalla. I have just sent you an email with a answers to your questions. It also tells you about a schultermesser that is up for bid on EBay in Austria TODAY. So you'll have to hurry. Yesterday the bid was up to One Euro. Today it is up to one and a half Euros, but the shipping to the US is $35.Thank you very much for your research and your help.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
It's all in the wrist!
Perhaps a couple of pics might be in order?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/27/2007 10:21 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Ooooppps, and another
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Mel,
Pretty amazing stuff, eh? If you can't make headway with Langevin & Forest, I found it on the Pfeil site:
http://www.pfeiltools.ch/cgi-bin/flexi020916?ID=wlbncNRHZmQAAFY7kvwAAAAH&Q=&S=3:1:40104;::400473:104:::1::&P=&MT=main2
I looked in their partners listing and gues what:
Woodcraft Supply Corp.5300 Briscoe Road, P.O. Box 1686Parkersburg, WV 26102+1 304 422 5412+1 304 422 5417[email protected]http://www.woodcraft.com Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Mel,
You've probably done this but I Googled "Carving Architectural Detail in Wood" and got a ton of hits. There is a publication by that name that pretty much preoccupies the first page, but if you keep flogging along it eventually gets into more interesting stuff.
Enjoy,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
One of the better books on the subject of architectural carving is:
Carving Architectural Detail in Wood, The Classical Tradition, by Frederick Wilbur. One of the best books if one isn't looking for step-by-step instruction [there is some, sorta]. Presumes some knowledge of carving. I refer to mine often when I have just wanted to step out to the shop for a pleasant evening trying ideas/elements.
Take care, Mike
Thanks Mike,
I'm sorta doing research to help Mel who has mentioned in numerous posts that he'd like to do architectural wood carving. I found the book you recommended as well as quite a few others in the search I suggested to him. If you know of other sources/pictures, etc. I'm sure he would appreciate it.
Thanks again,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Mike,
Thanks for the reference to the Frederick Wilbur book. That is the second time I have come across it today. I also found it recommended by Chris Pye on his website. I will obtain a copy.Mike, since I am not in the "business", I just follow my nose in woodworking, and it takes me on interesting trips. This one that I am working on is an attempt to learn how the early carvers in Germany, Switzerland and Norway did "Chip Carving" on the sides of buildings. I did translate a book, Das Kerbschnitzen, from German to English, because it had a four page chapter on carving the facades of buildings. I got to this from trying out chip carving, and wondering how they did the big stuff. Certainly it isn't with the little chip carving knife. The book that I translated said that one takes a chip carving knife blade from its handle and inserts it into a larger handle that is 30 centimeters long, and holds it in two hands. Since the letter sides wouldn't be as long as the blade, this might just work. As I got to that point, I went to a meeting of the Washington Woodworkers Guild, and the other guy who is into chip carving walked in with a BIG TOOL. It has a blade that is shaped and angled just like a small chip carving knife, but it is over three inches long and over 1/8 thick. It is a big sucker. The handle is about 15 inches long, and is turned. The guy bought it on EBay and thought it was a big chip carving knife. To research it further, I posted a description on Knots (this thread) and got a response from someone telling me that it was a "shoulder knife" that was made by Pfeil and sold by Woodcraft in 1975. Shoulder knives were used to make thick marquetry back many hundreds of years ago. More research turned up little on shoulder knives, BUT if you look up their German name, Schultermesser, or their French name, ciseau d'epaule, you get lots of good stuff -- but it ain't in English. One man on this thread found that Pfeil is selling a newer version of the shoulder knife through a store in Montreal. It has ####longer handle which has a curve in it to fit over your shoulder. Neither Pfeil nor the Canadian store could provide any info on its use. (Isn't that interesting). They are still selling versions of a tool that went out of use about 400 years ago when the fret saw was invented, but doesn't come with instructions.So the research continues. I don't plan on carving the facades of too many houses. My wife would kill me. This is just a VERY interesting adventure through history, with the assistance of capable and fun people on Knots. I certainly will make some big signs.A friend in the local woodworking guild is going to have me over to his shop to make a couple of blades and to turn a couple of handles. So far, I have only made one blade, that for a small block plane that I made in a one day class. This will be an adventure. I will post photos of whatever happens (no matter how bad), and share the continuing adventure with others who are interested in old tools. I want to compare the use of a tool made from putting a long handle on a modern chip carving blade with the use of a big Pfeil-like shoulder knife. Obviously the smaller knife will be much thinner, and thus better at slicing, but easier to break. The larger one may not be as precise for making slices. We'll see. The adventure continues.
Thank you for your help and advice. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mike,
Got the email response below from Patrick. If you haven't been there yet, his WEBsite is fascinating. Using selected keywords from below yields numerous related sites from Google. IIRC there is a picture on his site that shows the use of the tool. Used to cut marquetry pieces as far back as 1500! Veneers in those days were up to 1/4" thick thus the design of the kinfe.
As does, "Architectural wood carving"
During the Italian Renaissance there are illustrations which show this knife. The process of “Tarsia Certosina” is described in Pierre Ramond’s book, “Marquetry” and the illustration on page 12 of Volume I (the three volume “Masterpieces of Marquetry” also by Ramond) shows this knife. Further, on page 22 of Yannick Chastang’s excellent work, “paintings in wood” (published by the Wallace Collection, London in 2001) a series of photos show Mr. Chastang using such a knife, over his shoulder, to incise cut marquetry.
This knife, and the process of Tarsia Certosina was quickly replaced after the general adoption of the fret saw blade.
Patrick
http://www.WPatrickEdwards.com
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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