Replies

1. 
   mrfu | Jun 02, 2009 07:46am | #1

   Well a couple of things to start a top of the line Lamello biscuit joiner is $925 so not all are cheaper. Biscuits and Dominos are a totally different joint that should be used in very different situations. I find that the domino is much more versatile and can be used in place of a biscuit much more than the other way around. Yes biscuits are cheaper than dominos but it is much less expensive for me to buy dominos than to make my own floating tenon stock.
   Your analogy on the money thing is weak, a $4k difference in price is 80 hours of labor @ $50 an hour but if you plug that number into the domino vs biscuit joiner it is only $575 or 11 1/2 hours labor. That savings can easily be made up over a couple projects. If your buying a top of the line biscuit joiner the number is even smaller.
   I care about joint strength but what is much more appropriate is using the correct joint in the first place. In my experience biscuits don't hold up to constant racking there just isn't enough surface area to hold up over time. It would be interesting to test joints on one of the machines IKEA puts in their showrooms to test seat cushions.
   I guess your question about making a case for it at it's price is hard because it is the only machine out there that does what it does and given the time savings it is very worth the cost of admission for me.
   I also use a lot of floating tenons in my work using a multi-router and have found that the domino can be used in place of it about 90% of the time because it is faster and easier. Last I checked multi-routers are pushing $3k.
   I'm defiantly not a Festool homer I have a domino and a sander that I got at a very nice introductory price but none of their other tools has really interested me. I can get 4 really nice cordless drills for the price of theirs and the kapex doesn't really interest me at all, I have an old Hitachi that was $200 and it does everything I need.
   So you want to know how I justify it's cost it's easy.
   1-it's a well built tool and it isn't that much more than other european power tools.
   2- It saves time and money
   3- while not as easy to use as biscuits it isn't much harder and more versatile.
   4- If i had to choose between the two the biscuit joiner would go first.
   I'm attaching my latest project done using athe domino, which is a curly sapele liquor cabinet.
   Tom Stockton

   
1. 
   jphelps7 | Jun 03, 2009 03:03am | #12

   Awesome wood and workmanship.   I agree with you on the Festool domino.

   JP

    

2. 
   loveelurouters | Jun 06, 2009 02:00am | #20

   Tom:

   Beautiful work. Is the front of the cabinet bowed? Also, I am just getting underway in veneering and was wondering what you use for a substrate. If that is solid stock all the way around, your clinent has some major $ and I apologize for the veneer comment.

   I appreciate your feedback. Like I said I was looking for some discussion. Some others did refer to me a a hater of Festool and that is not the case. I am on the brink of buying the TS55 because I am becoming convinced that I can't live without it.

   I was also exluding the Lamello biscuit jointers as they are very expensive. Again, great tool, but as an hobbyist, I can't make that work in the budget either.  From what I have read here, the owners love them and I agree with the comment about Multirouters. On that topic, I made the slot mortiser from a previous FWW article, it was a bear to build accurately, but now it works well. It doesn't get enough use for the time it took me to make and remake it accurately, but it was fun.

   Glad to have responses from so many people. Festool has always interested and fascinated me but I couldn't afford the plunge. I think the TS55 may cause me to enter a doorway I can't afford, but you know what they say about cash...you can't take it with you when you go.

   Best regards.

   Vince

2. 
   Lataxe | Jun 02, 2009 11:52am | #2

   LER,

   I think that your initial asumption, that a Dewalt or Porter Cable biscuit joiner is equivalent in function/results to a Domino, is incorrect. 

   In biscuit joinery precision is everything, as you probably know from your own experience.  Various "tests", including one by FWW a few years ago, found imprecision in both those biscuit joiners you mention.  Such imprecision can lead (at best) to extra rework, eg because parts don't align perfectly and have to be planed or sanded.  At worst the joints are sloppy, as well as misaligned, so lose a great proportion of their strength; or won't stay together at all.

   A better biscuit joiner to use in comparison to the Domino would be a Lamello or a Mafel.  I've used a Mafel biscuit joiner for many years now.  It's precise and resilient; it does cost half of what a Domino costs, although rather more than a PC or a DeWalt.

   ****

   I recently bought a Domino and so far it's impressed me greatly with it's precision and ease-of-use.  Can it do more than a biscuit joiner?  I haven't enough personal experience yet but I anticipate that the Domino will provide better facilities for a number of jointing tasks than does a biscuit joiner. 

   The Domino allows many more sizes of joint, including very small ones for narrow pieces that biscuits are not good for, because of their width.  I have M&T'd the ends of 1" wide pieces into the edges of similar pieces using the smallest dominos.  The joints were precise and strong.  This would not be possible with a biscuit joiner. 

   Chair-making capabilities spring to mind - an application that the Domino will handle well, giving easily-angled and precisely-placed M&Ts of the right size and strength.  I wouldn't want to build a chair with biscuits, even were it possible.

   I'm about to build a double decker coffee table of somewhat massive proportions, in pitch pine.  I expect the largest Dominos, especially doubled-up, will provide the necessarily strong M&Ts  quickly and precisely.  They will closely emulate trditional M&T topologies. I could use biscuits instead but to get the same glue-area I'd need to use the larger S9s.  I have done this in the past but their long length means it's unwise to glue the whole biscuit where there is a longish joint with the grain of the parts at right angle - e.g leg to a deep apron.

   ***

   As an amateur I don't care so much about the tool costs as much as I do about what can be achieved.  But even using your cost-based comparison, I feel the Domino is likely to come out ahead.  I'm hoping my ongoing experience with the Domino will confirm the Domino's versatility but time will tell.

   Lataxe

1. 
   Hastings | Jun 02, 2009 03:34pm | #6

   Lataxe:Life must be good in Galgate for you to spring for the Domino as well as that "carrier-sized" Marcou presently making its way to your shop.H

1. 
   Lataxe | Jun 02, 2009 05:48pm | #8

   H,

   Yes, life is good in Galgate.  Those toys, though, are courtesy of the ladywife's salary, which she gets for fighting with computer "suppliers"all day in an attempt to get them to make proper software for the millions they get paid by the Queenie's treasurer.  This is a hiding-to-nothing, despite her great efforts and oft-times exhausted state when she comes home to the nest of an evening. One suspects an illicit arrangement somewhere, as MPs are involved.

   I bugger about at home doing shed-thangs and such but also cook the dinner and even vacuum the carpets!  (I am trained-up as a husband). When I'm very good I polish the furniture and have been known to cut hedges.  I offer to iron the blouses but am banned, seeing as how I have burnt one or two.  (Whaddyamean I did it on purpose)!?

   Sometimes I go out to walk over a fell or two, ride a bicycle down the lanes or walk a borrowed dog for a few miles via the pub.  (It likes crisps or chips with mayo on them).  There is also a fine gymnasium across the hill with lots of equipment, a full-size swimming pool and many patrons of the fair gender dresed in [censored].

   We have proper countryside around here to enjoy;  and I have frightened all the motorists off the country roads by banging on their car-roofs or grimacing horribly at them as they pass me, pedaling furiously and flicking away the sweat.  Sometimes I go more calmly and take photographs of the landscape, which is much improved by an absence of smelly motors and their contents.

   ***

   However, this spending money provided by the ladywife will all disappear in a couple of months, when The Lovely Young Colleen gives up wage-slavery in exchange for real life.  She is doing a horticultural degree at the local college, not to mention perfecting her swimming (in case she falls in a garden pond).  So, we must both eke out a living on my pension, which will allow the odd bottle of grog and a trip to the seaside for an ice cream but no more fancy tools, oh no.

   I made her save up for a carving course first, mind.

   But them Marcous and Festools last forever, eh?  I have decided to live to age 127, to take full advantage of them.

   Lataxe, who was rather poor until a mere 10 years ago, when fate gave a hiccup and promoted him to a fine pensionable job - no idea how or why, it was probably the good fairy.  He is anxiously awaiting a compensatory visit by the bad goblin.

1. 
   zolton | Jun 02, 2009 06:39pm | #9

   I've only owned my Domino a few months, but so far it has done what I expected it to do - and that is speed up production of the things I build. That and nothing more. I don't buy tools to collect, stroke or fondle them; I need to make them pay for themselves.

   And the Domino does this nicely. In fact, it's actually an investment, and a good one at that. Here's my thinking...

   As I sell my work, buying the Domino was a business expense. So I can deduct its purchase price from my income next year.

   Plus, consider if I had taken the $825 I paid for the Domino kit (and $200-something for the initial load of tenons) and put that into the stock market. Now the market has been on a tear lately (after, of course, that precipitous fall..). But if my investment of about a grand in the market would have gained 10%, close to the historical average, I might have yielded about a hundred bucks. And then I'd have to pay taxes on that amount if I decided to sell (and a brokerage fee had I gone through an investment house). That would leave me with not much.

   By comparison, I get to deduct the Domino from my taxes and I can earn more money by using it to work faster, more precisely, and with more versatility that I was able to do before. Yes, it was expensive. But for me it is a good investment.

   I will say that things are not completely rosy throughout Festoolworld though. My Domino turns out to not be the supreme, ultimate, precise instrument I had heard it was. The fence's detent at 90 degrees positions the fence at somewhere about 85 degrees. At that setting the Dominos go into the wood at an angle unless the fence is repositioned, using an engineer's square for reference, off the detent.

   Plus, the fence slips. This is a known problem (or at least seems to be reported as such in the Festool Owners Group). If I reef on the locking lever hard enough to stop the fence from slipping, it causes the fence to bulge out past the body of the tool about 1/32", throwing things out of line.

   Those problems I'm able to deal with. The one that's got me flummoxed (again, reported at FOG to be a known issue with some Domino units) is that the mortise the cutter makes is not perfectly parallel to the fence. So a piece a Domino is inserted in is slightly rotated when it is joined to another piece. If I can't find a good way to fix this I'm going to send the tool back.

   Despite these problems I'd buy the Domino again. It's that good a tool..

   Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon

1. 
   Domer | Jun 02, 2009 07:37pm | #10

   I also have the Domino and gave my biscuit joiner to my son. I started using loose tenons a couple of years ago using my router to make the mortises and my table saw to make the loose tenons. I found that a relatively easy and forgiving way to make joints. Once I started using loose tenons, the Domino was the logical next tool. The joints take very little set up time, are fast and accurate.One of the drawbacks with the biscuit that has not been brought up so far is the fact that the biscuits swell in the joint and can cause a bubble on the surface of the wood. The Festools are well made, well thought out, and seem to be durable according to the reviews. The Domino is an incredibly versatile tool but like several others on this blog, it is not for everything.I do not sell my work but either give it away or use it for my own use. But I do value my time and if you value your time at anything at all, the Domino makes good economic sense. So, so far, I am happy with the DominoDomer

2. 
   PeterDurand | Jun 03, 2009 01:48am | #11

   Ah, being a pensioner. I have become quite used to it. It took about 30 minutes :-)A wise old colleague who retired about two years prior to me told me that I would now receive one cheque per month, on the 1st. And the retired rule is that you then buy one toy. And live on what is left. So far it has worked for 1 1/2 years.Cheers,Peter 

   Better life through Zoodles and poutine...

3. 
   Kaleo | Jun 02, 2009 02:32pm | #3

   First of all, there are two type pf people in this woodworking world, those that like Festool and those that don't. Those that don't always use the same argument, they cost to much. I would like to see someone do a test on how much longer the tool last.

   I would like to see or hear about how you tested your joints, what kind of joints were they. How did the joint break, along the glue line or did the domino break?

   Plus the things that you can do with the domino that you can't with a biscuit joiner are many. I would never think about putting a biscuit into a chair leg joint. But I have and do put domino's into that joint. and that's only one thing.

   If price is the main issue, I understand they are expensive. But the designed in differences make them worth it to me. Cord management, the best dust extraction, simple and precise settings, save me set up time and clean up time, which translate into more time to make money to pay for the tool itself.

   Kaleo

   http://www.kalafinefurniture.com

4. 
   pmmatty | Jun 02, 2009 02:59pm | #4

   I am not insulted by your comments nor am I going to insult you.  I love my domino.  Reasons:

   1. I think your comparison of biscuitry (made the word up) and dominoitry(another new word) is like comparing apples and oranges.

   2. when I use 5 mm dominos to join a panel, they fit so tight that the problem in aligning boards is eliminated.  not true of biscuits, because of the loose fit.

   3. the real test is your method of using a router for floating tenons and the domino method.  I value ease of use and time saved when creating joinery.  I don't know how long it takes you to set up the jig and router to cut mating mortises.  I do know that it takes me a couple of minutes, tops.  I have not cut a traditional mortise and tenon for a couple of years now.  Don't miss it at all.  Time saved is money saved, whether I am building to sell or not.

   So that is my justification.  Sure it was expensive.  But I am of the belief that any tool; technology; which makes my work more efficient and more accurate is, if within reason, worth the cost.

   pmm

5. 
   Hastings | Jun 02, 2009 03:31pm | #5

   Love:

   The first few replies have pretty much covered the argument.

   From the Festool Owner's Group, I do notice that many of the members are professionals, who often have to create a workshop at the job site. Festool is more an integrated system rather than a range of individual tools.

   I assume that these professional woodworkers are not given to throwing their money away and can easily justify the price because of the accuracy, robustness and all the other benefits that have already been mentioned.

   I also note that many trim carpenters have bought a Kapex and love that too; although, I also think that one is a bit of stretch.

   Clearly, you are not in Festool's target audience - most people are not.

   Regards,

   Hastings

6. 
   bones | Jun 02, 2009 04:27pm | #7

   I have the domino (sold the PC Plate jointer) and in no way take offense to the question.  It's just that a question.  So here is my answer:

   The issue I noticed with the test was it had a single domino and If I were doing the joint I'd had 2 due to the thickness/width of the mating pieces.  While looking at the pure crush strength is cool for a single bond point,  when you add in the design of the piece as a whole in comparison with a single joint it loses some meaning. 

   Secondly, its not for all applications but for where its designed its a beauty.   I'm just completing a project (that's gone on forever according to the wife) with that has the domino as the major joint.  I'm on my second large bag of the large ones. 

   It's fast, it's accurate, and it's strong (as long as you lay the joint out properly and use the right size/qty).  I've used floating tenons for a long time and find them very useful and in my opinion (that and a buck will get you a cup of coffee) are just as good as regular m&t. 

   The domino was purchased (conned the wife for this project and considered part of the cost of the project) along with the CT33e dust extractor.  I've sense started acquiring more festool(routers sander).  I would consider them the Lie Nielsen's of power tools and they are addictive.  Are they expensive you bet, but once you use them start to appreciate the craftsmanship, ergonomics, and dust control capabilities you get hooked.  The only thing thats bugs me is I wish they were made in the USA (no offense to my  German friends).  I'm even getting use to the metric system and I'm an old fart. 

   Something else, go look on E-bay and check the price for used festool.  They generally go for close to new prices and that says something.  Compare that to other tools.  Matter of fact I'll have a slightly used PC Sander going on the classifieds soon due to a replacement with the ets/3 (what a tool)  and will be lucky to get forty cents on the dollar for it.

   WARNING! don't get the first one (festool) or you will be hooked too!   And as others have said people generally fall into two camps the lovers (who have them) and the haters who for some reason just hate anything with festool on it and thats ok.  I've just never understood it myself.

   I'm in the middle. Some of their stuff I can't see the price value like the drills (yet) but their tools do work nicely together and the systainers help the organization tremendously.  Anyway thats my two cents worth.  Have a good one. 

    

   The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
   

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/2/2009 9:30 am by bones

1. 
   jphelps7 | Jun 03, 2009 03:17am | #13

   Well said!

   JP

    

    

7. 
   James R. | Jun 03, 2009 07:40am | #14

   Love:

   I too am a woodworker as a hobby, although it's becoming less hobby and more passion and therapy. I made the attached table a few years ago, it's a Peter Korn design, and it has more than 40 mortise and tenon joints. I used a Rockler tenon jig and a Delta dedicated mortiser. It took me a long time to make and fit those joints, some of which I had to remake. That was probably a skill problem. The point being I could have saved time and made cleaner joints had I had the Festool Domino. When the Domino became available I purchased it on the first day. No regrets, it's a great tool. I still use the PC biscuit jointer, however much less often.

   Edited 6/3/2009 12:42 am ET by James R.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/3/2009 12:43 am ET by James R.

   
1. 
   Lataxe | Jun 03, 2009 12:46pm | #15

   James,

   Love your table!  My tastes rarely encompass more modern styles (such styles are often "over-designed" and have excess shouty-wood) but that table is elegant and restrained.

   Now, there are some lads who will suggest that your "skill problem" should have been solved by practice, making 38,703 M&Ts by the traditional methods.  The fact that a Domino allows you to devote time to acquiring and applying design skills rather than tool skills may not occur to them traditionalists.

   Not to say that doing hand-made M&Ts (or using any other traditional method) is a waste of time - far from it, as it too provides that therapy you mention.  However, sometimes we want to finish a project in less than 12 months and care more about the quality of the final result than about the ideology of the making process.  For modern pieces, modern tools are often the right choice (just as traditional styles may benefit from the traditional tools used to engender them).

   As you have illustrated, either approach may be valid.

   Lataxe, who has chopped mortises with a mortise chisel, a router (freehand and with a woodrat) and now with a Domino.  I've yet to use a-one o' them mortising machines though.

2. 
   j1r2 | Jun 03, 2009 03:40pm | #16

   Your table is beautiful.  Thanks for sharing your experience with the Domino.  I recently purchased one and am looking forward to using it to build just such items.

   Would you be willing/able to share more about the design dimensions, etc., of the table.

   Thank you, again.

   John

1. 
   James R. | Jun 03, 2009 06:51pm | #17

   John:I'll be happy to send you the plans, however I don't think it's a good idea to put all your personal info on the internet. You can get the plans from a book titled "In the Modern Style." A cheaper option is for me to post my office address,I don't care if people know where my office is. Then you can mail me your home address or fax and I will send you the plans that I copy from the book.This table will be much easier to make using the Domino. Let me know what you decide.Jim

1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Jun 05, 2009 04:05am | #18

   Jim & John,

   Either of you folks can simply click on the user name and their profile will appear and in the box is a link to send a private email to the person.  That way it's not displayed anywhere and is kept private for the sender and receiver.

   Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

1. 
   James R. | Jun 05, 2009 05:21am | #19

   Thanks. John knew it but I didn't.
   Jim