I hope there are a few electricians in the wood working bunch here. I am trying to get my 8 inch jointer running and for that I need to install a 220 volt circuit. I went to to Home Depot and unbelievably found someone that actually “seemed” to know what they were talking about. I told him that I have Jointer that, according to the motors label, the jointer pulls nine amps at 220 volts. The HD guys said to use 15 or 20 amp plug, receptical, Double pole breaker and 12-3 wire. I went with the 20 amp double-pole breaker because my box is a Pacific Northern something or other and they are no longer around, so thats all I had to chose from. When I got home the Grizzly instructions say that 20 amp plug and receptical are fine but to use a 15 amp fuse and be sure not to “over fuse” on the amps. That probabaly isn’t worded right but I hope you all can get the just.
My questions is, can I use the 20 amp or do I need find a 15 on Ebay. Its seems that 20 would be fine if the machine only pulls 9 but what do I know (dont answer that).
thanks to anyone who can help
P.S. thanks to everyone on this forum who has helped me get into woodworking this last year (Im loving it), You all have really helped me become better and more confident in many situations through some of my own posts and reading others.
Replies
jd
The 20 amp breaker is fine. When I wired my shop, I placed several 20 A, 30 A, and 50 A 220V circuits around the shop in various locations to allow for tool movement. Depending on the size of your service panel, you just don't want to run too many at the same time to avoid tripping the main breaker.
Jeff
If you cannot easily find the 15 amp breaker then the 20 is OK. Remember, a 15 amp plug will go into a 20 amp socket anyway. Grizzly is worried that if the motor over loads by the time it trips a 20 amp breaker permanate damage might occur. They are right, especially if the motor has no other means of protection. But 5 amps isn't all that much. Personally I choose to always use the smallest breaker that will handle the load, so I'd feel safer with a 15 amp breaker. But many on this forum follow the "bigger is better" theory and their garages haven't burned down.
Mike
Usually the fuse (breaker) is designed to protect the wire--ie. to keep the house from burning-- it is not designed to protect the motor. I would be concerned about a motor whose overload protection came from the house fuse, particularly since repeated trips can make breakers malfunction, A motor should have its own overload protection, independent of the house wiring. .
"Remember, a 15 amp plug will go into a 20 amp socket anyway"
Just remember you should match your plug to your breaker. A 20A breaker should have a 20A receptacle and plug. Don't want to overload that plug.
Good point, I was refering to the plug not the outlet.
Mike
20 Amp is for #12 copper wire.. Not sure if a difference between copper and aluminum..
Breaker is sized for the wire not the device out there...
Thanks all. I have 12-3 wire with ground but the receptical and plug dont have a spot for neutral. Should I just cap the neutral and just not use it.
Yes, 220 volt wiring does not use a neutral, only two live conductors, plus the ground. Some appliances use a neutral with one of the two hots to create a 110 v power source in addition to the 220 v.
Check out Oct 2005 Popular Wood working for an article on using 12-3 to furnish both 110 and 220 from a single double pole breaker. The title of the article is "Efficient Shop Wiring" and is found on pages 82-85.
I gott'er hooked up today. Did some research on my Main panel today and found out ther Federal Pacific went out of business long ago and there equipment was so terrible that it is now considered a saftey hazard and my panel is a "split-bus" so it has no main shutoff. It wasnt fun but the jointer is purring like a cat. Yeeeha!!! Now to dig a 24" trench 30' long. Maybe ill go get some conduit and just go 18". Thanks everyone!!
I was talking to my village electrical inspector..
They will not allow this setup.. Has to be in separate boxes?
Edited 10/30/2005 3:53 pm by WillGeorge
What do you mean by "seperate boxes." You mean a sub for the garage. I dont quite understand, but Im not exactly an eletrician.
The electric panel with all it's circuit breakers generally only protects the house wiring. It does'nt protect the appliance plugged into it. If you have a twenty amp breaker on #12 wire, then it should supply electric to any appliance or group of appliances that collectively take 20 amps or less. If you want to protect a given appliance, (generally on a dedicated circuit) you should supply either an appropriate breaker or fuse for that appliance in the panel or separately in line with that appliance. Many quality motors have their own protection. Actually the operator should be able regulate the feed to a jointer to avoid motor damage.
What concerns me is that you mentioned the word "Pacific" and I am wondering if you meant "Federal Pacific". Yes, they went out of business several years ago. As I understand, they went out of business at the federal governments invitation. The problem is that they were not protecting as they should. Example: My son was doing some wiring with a friend at his house and accidentally shorted a wire. The FP 20 amp circuit did not trip. The main panel, of another brand, switch of 200 amp did trip. That means the 20 amp FP breaker carried in excess of 200 amps without tripping. That is not good protection.
I am in the apartment business and have gotten several houses with FP panels. I generally try to replace them with a reputable panel when I get a good chance. You can get other brand breakers made for those panels but they are so expensive that it is better to replace the whole panel than to buy very many.
I just installed a new Federal Pioneer subpanel and breakers from HD. I hope this isn't the same product you are referring to.
Walker1
Federal Pacific is a brand that went out years ago. I bought a house in 87 that had one and I almost did not find breakers for it then. I was on E-bay looking for a good deal for a sub panel for my shop, and there seams to be a small industry for FP breakers and such. Go figure.
Federal Pacific and Zinsco are in constant competition to be the most dangerous, hated brands. You got FP; my house had Zinsco.
Just eight days ago, I completed a panel replacement. Pulled out the old Zinsco panel, put in a new Square D QO 30/40. Now the Zinsco had functioned well, far as I knew (though the lights did blink if you pressed hard on the panel door), and my electrician said the installation was the cleanest he'd ever seen on a Zinsco.
To pull the panel, he just cut all the wires as they entered the Zinsco breakers (he intended to strip the wires anew anyway), and pulled the panel as a unit. He never saw the bus bars under the breakers.
Just last night, out of curiosity, I pulled out all the breakers from the old panel as it sat on the garage floor. Lo and behold, under one breaker there was a huge black arcing mark. A previous owner of the place had a breaker fail catastrophically, and had just replaced the breaker. But the pitted, blackened evidence was there.
Glad I got rid of it. Anyone want to buy some Zinsco breakers? I think they're safe...
did yours look something like this?"
No, mine was large enough to have blackened part of the panel beneath the bus, and to have heat-damaged the plastic of an adjacent breaker. The blackened portion extended for about 3/4" vertically. By comparison, your panel is clean. :)
The inspector who checked out our house before we bought it flagged the panel as a problem area. He was sure right, but with some DIY we got it changed out much cheaper than he'd suggested it'd cost us, even including the addition of the new 220 and 110 circuits.
your panel is more typical of Zinsco, ..while the arcing in my pic is not good, it was evident in every Zinsco I have had the joy to rip out. .......not quite serious yet, just unseen. IIRC the stupid breakers would not even line up with the bus ......in new panels, ......they were so wonderfully built !"
your panel is more typical of Zinsco
Funny. In woodworking, there are brands that are reviled by some. Craftsman and Grizzly come to mind, and Harbor Freight. But there are passionate defenders of all of these (I personally have both Craftsman and Grizzly stuff). Skil, Black & Decker, you name it, somebody loves 'em.
But Zinsco and Federal Pacific, it must be a very lonely life trying to start a fan club for those guys. :)
I might be wrong ...it's been quite a while now , but I believe that Zinsco was acquired by Sylvania and the panels that followed were truly something to just look at....the bus arrangement was ....serpentine...thats the best way to describe it, and those panels were not big sellers either, at least in my area.the Zinsco name had pretty much done them in......"
I've never heard of Federal Pioneer. Are you sure that's what it is? Sounds suspiciously close. You might want to check for sure. Looks like many others have posted so have enlightened us all on the subject. I had not heard of that other make either, but there just scads of FP electric panels around here, (WV). By the way, I am just trying to find my way around this forum. Is there some liturature that tells how to use it? I write in a post and then it is gone.
On reading your post again, It sounds like you just bought the panel new. Federal Pacific went out of business probably thirty years ago. I don't think you will ever see electric products that bad again so I think you're safe. But the name seems equivalent to a WW II vet naming his Child "Hitler". I would think the name similarity would cast a negative feeling to the would be buyer.
Yeah its Federal Pioneer with stablok breakers. Its the most commonly used in residential applications around here. I wouldn't recommend it though. The one I have in my house is around twenty years old, and is decent quality, but the one I just put in the shop is a cheap piece of crap that will barely hold on to the breakers. The breakers flop around unless every space is filled. If I hadn't been so anxious to get the job done, I would have taken it all back to HD, and gotten the other style breaker. Square D I think they're called. I did talk to an electrician about the panel, and he said, its like everything else these days, the quality on them has gone down hill.But he assures me its the most common panel in use today and he hasn't heard of any problems with them.
I must say its nice to have a properly wired shop finally. There are plugs every four feet. All the big machines have dedicated circuits, which was overkill because I'm the only one that works in there. But I actually enjoy wiring, and I had to fill that panel so what the heck.
By the way if your looking for a post that you don't see, just click on the messages icon on the top of the page, and do a search.
Cheers. Walker1
I must say its nice to have a properly wired shop finally. There are plugs every four feet. All the big machines have dedicated circuits
Doesn't it feel nice? I just finished mine as well, only drywall patching and painting to do.
Have fun!
FWIW ....
The " old " Stablok breakers for Fed Pacific, held on to the panel bus quite well..... they were tenacious in fact, the real problem was that the breakers did not do a very good job of protecting ANYTHING insofar as they would not trip....hence the nickname ....no-trip.....wiring would melt,,,,, and burn in some instances, for a few feet from the panel while the breakers would just keep letting current thru !!!I mean the breakers would not even trip on a dead short .. So if the original wiring was modified or altered, you can imagine what the consequences could be.....Alas, I have no experience with Federal Pioneer, but it sounds like the breakers still attach to panel the same way. and that method as I mentioned was quite reliable....Zinsco , on the other hand was quite the oppositeI wil try to post a picture of a Federal Pacific Stab-Lok breaker later"
...OK ,do your breakers resemble these,? They may not be identical, just similar.... if they do.....First...........I did not realize you are in Canada, ......... it turns out ,the corporation (Schneider ) that owns Federal Pioneer, also owns Square D, and your breakers are of the same type as old Federal Pacific...... these panels are only available in ....Canada....
the breaker in my pictures was given to me by a plant electrician years ago, he was going to throw it out because ...prior to using it to replace a "bad " breaker, he flipped the toggle on and off and the thing ....never opened , that is to say , the power would have stayed onWalker,
I am sorry to give you this news, but I thought I should at least give you the information ...I hope I am wrong !!I sincerely hope that ALL of the info I have posted, does not apply to your panelTom"
Hi Tom; Thanks for the info, and background on these breakers. You are right my breakers are very similar to the one in your pic. Like I said, they don't seem like very good quality, but I wasn't aware that they could have problems with not tripping.
I'm going to check this out thoroughly, and if the worst turns out to be true, I'm out a couple hundred bucks, and a couple of hours work, and I'll remember to listen to myself the next time I say (I should take this crap back, and get something better.)
Those breakers, and panels are only available in Canada you say. That's interesting.
Cheers. Walker1
Walker1,
Geez, it seems that the original FPE was bought by Reliance Electric in the '80s, and later, (while suing the seller for their purchase price after Reliance was bought by Exxon,) admitted that the UL listing was lost due to fraudulent practices by FPE during the time of FPE dominance in the market,
but UL never publicly admitted that fact......this is a very strange story, here are two excerpts....... this story is from 1999The problem with FPE breakers is that a significant portion of them will not
trip on overload or short circuit conditions in order to protect a building from
fire ignition. Testing done by the CPSC showed that at a modest overload on both
poles these failed 25% of the time, followed by a lockup. The breaker would
never trip in the future at any overload. (See Table 1, Summary of Failures,
CPSC-C-81-1429 December 30, 1982, attached.) There are other types of failures
known to occur in FPE panels at lower probability and not as well documented as
the 2-pole no-trip problem.....................-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------(As of February 1999) On speaking with an attorney who is researching FPE failures for a possible class action suit I have learned the following: Since a portion of the safety defect with FPE breakers may be due to variations during manufacture, and since Canadian breakers may be manufactured in a different plant from those made in the U.S., it's quite possible that the field performance of Canadian breakers may be different than the U.S. design. As of this date I have not had report of a failure in a Canadian breaker. NOTE that this website is not an official, nor a funded resource regarding this problem. There is no requirement that failures be reported to us for tabulation here. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence of failures. Also, having inspected a few Canadian FPE electric panels themselves, I have observed at least two ongoing concerns: 1.) the same bus design was used as in the U.S. equipment. I've seen very poor retention of breakers in the bus - in one house the breaker was held in place by duct tape, as the spring design in the contact of the breaker where it plugs into the special opening in the bus appears not to have held the breaker in place. I have also seen breakers modified with their inserting pins bent and modified to fit a breaker into a slot where it did not belong - a step that is impossible with other breaker designs. 2.) A similar or identical panel design may expose consumers to panel arcing and fires regardless of changes in the breakers themselves. the excerpts are from here
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm
they were a link from the page belowI dug up some more info if you want to keep reading ???
there are lots of link here...
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpestlouis.htm#ReplaceFPETom"
Hi Tom; Thanks for the additional info, and links. I guess theres no need checking further, everything you need to know is right there. Oh man am I ever ticked off about this, because it's not just my shop, my house has the same FP Stablok Panel, and it was installed in 97, right in the middle of the recall, and I've never heard anything about this.
You know what really gets me about this, is the fact that all of this equipment has CSA approval labels all over it. A Canadian Standards Association approval is supposed to guarantee the product has passed safety and performance tests.
The fact that the breakers fit so loosely in the bar should have been enough to fail the equipment before it was even load tested.
I think the fact that the Canadian Government is always so desperate to attract, and retain business, and manufacturing in Canada might have a lot to do with this situation.
Oh well what's done is done. Now I have to decide weather I want to live with a question mark over my electrical equipment or replace it.
Thanks again. Shawn
Shawn,
I wish I could say it was enjoyable to pass on so much info....
especially, with your circumstances...... what a nightmare.....this stuff just won't go away ! Take Care..Tom"
I'd advise you to replace the panel. It sounds like a safety issue, and you will likely add more tools and household appliances which may stress other panel components and lead to misadventure. While quality work isn't cheap, it's not too costly to replace an existing panel, and you will sleep better at night. Moreover, as you add more tools, you will find it easy to wire back to the new panel, amd could save money on the back end. I upgraded my service from an old fuse box to a 200 amp breaker about 8 years ago. I've expanded my shop over the past 6 years, and have frequently benefited from the new panel when wiring new tools.
Good luck,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Well... I definitely would like to replace the panel knowing what that the one now is is not very safe and, although Im confident I could do it myself, I would feel more comfortable with a hired electrician. But they seem very pricey. I appreciate everyones advice though. It's nice being able to get some opinions when I working with something that Im not to confident with.
By the way. If I was to replace the main panel, since I dont have a main shutoff between the meter and the panel, would I have to call the power company to disconect my meter and if I do, how much do they charge.
I would feel more comfortable with a hired electrician
I also wanted an electrician to do the panel change. There's a lot of detail regarding how the wires from elsewhere in the house are "landed" that is hard to acquire from books. Plus, making the connection to your service, what sort of lugs to use, do you use an anti-oxidant, all that sort of thing.
So I hired the guy to do the panel change, which he did quite well. He even stayed late and connected my sockets (I'd run almost all the wires to the box locations). Since I'd bought the panel and the breakers and run wires through the ceilings and walls, he did it all in about eight hours and I paid FAR less than if I'd just sat back and paid him to do it all. Other things I did to save $$ were, I grounded the hot/cold/gas systems together (inspector told me it needed to be done), and installed my new grounding rods (lots of pounding, again a requirement from the inspector) and ran the grounding electrode conductor myself. My electrician gave me yet another break because I told him I'd do all the cleanup, which is a part of the job he hates to do.
In the end, I figure I saved well over half the cost, and every single electrical connection was made by a qualified electrician. The whole design was reviewed in advance (and modified, thank goodness because I had at least one stupid idea, trying to 3-wire a pair of GFCI'd circuits) and the completed work was inspected by the city. Since my five kids and wife live in this house, this lets me rest easier.
Oh, and the install passed inspection on the first go, including the panel change and all seven (five 220, two 110) circuits.
would I have to call the power company to disconect my meter and if I do, how much do they charge
I called my power company. They said the protocol is, I they come out per schedule and remove the meter. They put a lock so the service can't be restored until they come out. Once I pass inspection, I call them, they come out and see the inspector's signature, then they re-install the meter and charge me $35.
I called my inspector. He said, don't call the utility folks in advance. It's up to him, not the utility, when power can go back on in the house. So once I shut power off and do the change, call him and he'll inspect; if I pass, I can re-energize the house, but until then we'll be without power. But if I want this done on a weekend, I'll be paying weekend inspection fees in excess of $200.
I talked with my electrician. He said forget it, just pull the meter when he gets there, we do the work, and put the meter back on. Don't try to fool the inspector, just leave the power on when he arrives.
I made my own choice, which was to follow the electrician's advice. This way, I didn't have to 1) take a day off work instead of doing the panel change on the weekend, or 2) pay the inspector $200 extra to avoid having power down for an extra day. This worked out fine, and the inspector wasn't put out at all (didn't even comment on the power being on already).
So now when the power company comes and sees the unsealed meter, they'll just seal it back up. I don't know if I'll pay $35, but that's no big deal.
I don't have advice for what you should do, other than you should definitely have your work inspected and passed off by the city. You should find out your utility's rules and your inspector's rules, then make your decisions.
Nicely done. Not only does it seem all up to code, but you probably learned a lot by managing so much of it yourself.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Politely ask inspector to show you what section of NEC prohibits this type of installation. If you have a copy of article in your possesion to show him exactly what you desire to do, this would probably help your cause. I'm not sure where you are located, but here we can appeal any inspectors decision to state dept. of insurance for clarification. Your inspector is probablly thinking that you have two seperate circuits in one box when in fact you only have one. Ask him how a dryer would be wired as it uses the very same technology to furnish 220 for heater and 110 for motor and timer. He may not have seen this type of wiring before and is afraid to "stick his neck out". Best of luck.
Oh, boy. This same question was posted on woodnet.net awhile ago, and started a real storm. Some people used this little quote in the Grizzly manual (combined with the incorrect assumption that the branch circuit breaker only protects the branch wiring, and not the appliance), as evidence that Grizzly doesn't build proper motor protection into their tools, they ship dangerous product, etc. It's a little amazing how many people feel comfortable giving advice and opinions that are just plain incorrect while playing amateur electricians an engineers.
--Grizzly gets themselves into little situations like this because they don't ship the tool with a plug on the cord. Why they do this, I don't know. Maybe they rationalize it because customers want to choose between straight and locking plugs; some customers like to live dangerously and use those old non-Code 3-wire dryer plugs, too, I suppose. They're not the only tool manufacturer that does stupid things with plugs; my favorite are those that specfiy in the manual of their heavy-duty 120V tools that it must be used on a 20A branch, and then ship it with a 15A plug! If they'd just put a 20A plug on it, they could be sure it was never used on a 15A branch.
--If Grizzly were to put a plug on the end of the cord, they would implicitly ensure that it would be used on a breaker with the correct rating. One of the often-repeated "internet myths" about electrical wiring is that "the breaker only protects the circuit wiring, not what's plugged into it". This is flat-out wrong. The branch circuit breaker does indeed provide protection to what is plugged into the receptacles. That is why, under the NEC, there are limits on the maximum breaker size one may use on a branch serving a certain size receptacle; i.e., if you have a 15A receptacle on a cricuit, you cannot use a 50A breaker. Even if you use #6 wire in the branch circuit. The 50A breaker would be too big to protect the flexible cord, fixture wiring, and/or appliance wiring that the Code says can be plugged into a 15A receptacle.
--Note that the ampacity for wires used in flexible cords and fixture wiring is higher than if the same guage wire was used in a branch circuit; .i.e., there is a separate section of Article 200 for such wires, and for example a cord with a 15A plug on it does not need to be #14.
--All motors greater than 1 HP cannot depend on the branch circuit for overload protection. In the case of the Grizzly, the magnetic switch that they use provides thernal overload protection, that complies with the Code requirements for motor protection.
--That doesn't mean you can hook the Grizzly up to a 50A branch, however. The tool's power cord conductors are not protected by the magnetic switch, and it is unlikely they are rated for use on a 50A branch. ;) The switch itself wouldn't be adequately protected, either.
--So, can you use the 20A breaker? Probably. The tool's wiring is probably plenty big for use on a 20A circuit (if it wasn't so late, I'd look it up). The admonishment in the Grizzlt manual is probably a result of them having to say something due the fact that there is no plug, and tech writer over-exuberance plus lawyer paranoia resulted in the 15A recommendation. Although it is good practice to use as small a protection device as is needed to power the load.
Grizzly gets themselves into little situations like this because they don't ship the tool with a plug on the cord.
That's better than what Delta does with their 5HP... the motor is rated 21A and at least sometimes they include a 20A cord. :) To be fair, the manual (incorrectly) says there is no cord, so most owners probably get enough of a that's-not-right vibe to check it out; Delta gives the right answer when you talk with them on the phone.
it is good practice to use as small a protection device as is needed to power the load
True, but sometimes deciding the correct amount of power needed isn't easy. A motor with 20A on its plate should not be protected with 20A OCP, because it can draw more as it starts up; I believe the NEC recommends 25% extra capacity, so 25A+ for a 20A motor load. Is that how you read it, for a load like a saw?
For a dedicated circuit, the load is supposed to be 80% of the OCP; i.e, the OCP is at least 125% of the load. That should take care of start-up as well. So yes, for a 20A nameplate load, the next value above 25A, i.e. 30A, is used.
There's also material in Article 400 about the size of conductors feeding motors. Although that pertains just to the conductors themselves, and not the OCP. And there is a question as to whether this pertains to cord-connected "appliances" such as cord-and-plug connected power tools. The intent of that section is to cover the situation where a motor is replaced with a new one of the same HP, but a different (higher) nameplate current rating; they don't want to force new branch circuit conductors to be run.
a motor is replaced with a new one of the same HP, but a different (higher) nameplate current rating; they don't want to force new branch circuit conductors to be run
Yeah, I've heard about that but honestly I just ran 10/2 (+ ground) for my 30A circuits. I just couldn't make myself believe there'd be any benefit to running bigger wire, as 30A is a helluva stretch already. Watch, I'll be kicking myself in two years as I find I just can't live without the newest 33A tool. Hehe.
I was originally going to run just two 220v circuits, 30A each, with outlets all around the garage. No dice, says the inspector during my preinstall design review, so instead I have five 30A circuits, with every 220v outlet a home run. Cost me about $45 extra in breakers and an extra 100' or so of wire, but it's one heck of a robust install for a bloody garage shop. Only thing more extravagant would have been drawing in three-phase. :)
Don't stop there- go for 4 phase. You never know when you might need a missile launcher...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Don't stop there- go for 4 phase
Funny. :) Reminds me of the great old movie Mr. Mom, where Jack Butler (Michael Keaton) is desperately trying to establish his masculine credibility to his wife's new boss (Martin Mull). As the boss arrives at the front door, Jack comes to the door in work clothes, carrying some tools and trying to sound handy. He lays out some BS about some electrical work he's doing in the garage, so the boss asks him if he's going to put in 220. Keaton replies "Yeah. 220, 221... whatever it takes."
about electrical wiring is that "the breaker only protects the circuit wiring, not what's plugged into it". This is flat-out wrong. Geeee Old post BUT... So I missed a few words.. Electrical enginner here.. I suppose to know.. The circuit breaker is sized for the wire used for fire protection.. Not the load applied.. That better?....OH I forgot.. The electrical outlet should have a receptical configuration for the intended amperage.. I know of no code that states that the wire cannot have a greater load capacity that the intended load...
Edited 11/5/2005 1:57 pm by WillGeorge
"The breaker protects only the circuit, not what is plugged into it". I think I made that statement. As the name implies - just a tinkerer, what is wrong with that statement? When I plug my stalled shaver into the 20 amp circuit, it just burns up without tripping the breaker as expected. Can you explain more fully the error of that statement.
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