Hi all,
I am relatively knew to Knots discussion board. I read it often but have never posted anything. After searching through the various threads I was unable to find an answer to a question, and was wondering if someone could offer me some advise. I am currently in the process of designing a workbench. I love the look of the solid maple bench tops created by joining strips of maple together to form the top. Unfortunately, my budget can’t afford maple. I was considering purchasing some very straight fir 2×4’s or even 4×4’s and using them instead. Is using a soft wood a bad idea? Will the table move on me and require constant reflattening? Is there another type of wood that would be cheaper than maple but work better than construction grade 2×4’s. Thanks for any help that can be offered.
Replies
My workbench/assembly table is an 8' length of bowling alley. Not a maple section, but southern yellow pine.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
If I were starting out I would build the “Rock Solid Plywood Workbench” described in Fine Woodworking issue number 181.
It looks to be extremely stable, relatively inexpensive, and does not require a shop full of high-end tools to build.
Frank, thanks for the advice. I have considered building a strictly "functional" workbench, but I guess the artist in me wants to have a little bit of the European workbench esthetics as well (i.e. w/ bench dogs, wooden vices, etc.) I was hoping to achieve it for a reasonable price.
Robin wrote: "I have considered building a strictly "functional" workbench, but I guess the artist in me wants to have a little bit of the European workbench esthetics as well (i.e. w/ bench dogs, wooden vices, etc.) I was hoping to achieve it for a reasonable price."<!----><!----><!---->
I can completely understand your feelings, and a European style bench is a great project. There are lots of woods that are less expensive that would still be great. Ash and soft maple are the first I think of. Depending on where you are located there are local woods that are also great. In certain parts of the U.S. construction lumber is Southern Yellow Pine, which makes a great bench.<!----><!---->
Any wood can make a fine bench. Chris Schwarz (PWW) use SYP all the time.
The main issues with softwood are whether it is fully dry (construction grade fir might not be) so it woun't disrtort as it dries further; it will dent and get dinged easier (obvious), and it will likely need flattening more often, at least at first, though this is not a particular hard thing to accomplish for a reasonably fit individual.
You might go on Wood Finder or check local mills to see if anyone is looking to unload a bulk of something they're tired of having around - ash or oak, maybe even maple? If you are willing to look around, and are open to using what is available, you may be surprised. It will also halp if you hav ethe toools to straighten and flatten rough cut stock yourself (joint and plane).
my first workbench was made from framing lumber and 3/4" sanded plywood. Nothing fancy.
For the top, you can make a really solid work surface using 2x4 lumber if you design it as a torsion box with a plywood surface.
I built one using some of the plans from this source. It's pretty easy to do and works just fine. I used better grade Doug Fir which was slightly more expensive than big box stuff. I still had to dig through a huge pile of lumber in order to find enough good sticks. Just remember that the wood only has to be clear on one edge. You could also buy wider dimensional lumber, say 2 x 8, and rip out the good parts.
My other advice would be to get fairly decent, quick release vices. Luckily, they are available at good prices just now. The cheap ones will plague you, as I discovered.
http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/z_pdf/shopImprov/BobAndDavesGoodFastAndCheapBench-ne.pdf
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10709
Wow,
You guys are great. Thanks for all the advice. I had no idea I would get a response, especially so quickly! I appreciate it.
The voice of heresy here...
The Knots community owns lots of workbenches, many of which will never be abused. They can be and often are true works of art. Some own workbenches that get paint/stain/glue slopped on them, that get hammered on, that get cuts. Mine is somewhat in the middle.
Select good 2x4's and let them dry in your shop. Build your frame out of 4x4's and support the middle of the bench as well as the ends. Top it with plywood if you want a smooth, flat surface. That can be topped with Masonite or some similar material that can be replaced whenever it becomes too raggedy. Make the perimeter out of 2x6's that fit flush with the Masonite and attach the front apron using good screws so you can replace it if necessary in 5-10 years. You can add round dog holes and vises in the future as your budget improves and your needs evolve.
If your budget can handle it, use 2x6's instead of 2x4's and cut them down to maybe 4" using your table saw.
You might also check out John White's "New-fangled" bench (search Knots forums - there are lots of posts) for a different approach to work benches. It uses construction lumber and pipe clamps.
The Wood Loon
Acton, MA
rob,
i have had three workbenches made from construction grade lumber. letting the wood dry out is a very good idea. my first bench was made entirely from 4x4's. twenty years later it looked well-used, had a nice patina and was solid as the day it was made. less fear involved when working cheaper lumber-a mistake is not so awful.
eef
I built my bench top from 10' long 2x4 stock indexed the boards with biscuts and used yellow glue. leveled the top with a belt sander. For the work surface I used tempered masonite and edged the top with rock maple and coated the whole thing with poly. I throw a coat of Johnsons Paste wax on the top every few years & it has held up well.
It looks nice and I don't feel gulity when I work on my outdoor power tools etc. It is nice and heavy so when I need to break out the hammer I never need to chase the bench.....
As the other guys mentioned hand pick the boards and construction lumber will serve you well - I used a basic design from the Workbench Book published by Taunton.
David
IMO, the primary issue with construction lumber is that it is not kiln dried to the same dryness as furniture lumber. Much is only KD to 19%. The lowest is KD to 12-14%. What this means is that you should further dry (acclimate) the wood for a month or two for 12% wood and probably 6-8 months for a 19%. It requires space to properly stack and sticker it. Make sure that air can a does pass easily through the stack.
Once dried properly, you can certainly use it for a benchtop. You will have to joint and plane it to be able to laminate the boards. You'll also have to use lots of clamps and glue it up in sections. Sure, it's soft and easily dented but it is still a fine bench. For more durability, make a same size hardboard covering and attach it some way that allows you to replace it at a later date.
You can certainly use construction lumber, but I would recommend against using 2x4's since they are usually cut from the lowest grade trees.
Go to the 2x10's and 2x12's and sort through the piles to find the best straight grained boards with the fewest knots and closely spaced rings. If possible buy stock that has been kiln dried, it will need to lose less moisture to stabilize to your shop conditions and the kilning will set much of the resins in the wood. The big box stores typically sell green lumber but a lumber yard will probably stock kiln dried wood.
By the way I'm the guy who designed the bench, made out of Douglas Fir, that is mentioned in post #10.
John White
Former Shop Manager at FWW
Robin,
You've gotten a lot of sound advice so far. There is nothing wrong with using a soft wood for a bench top. While it is more prone to getting dented, it is so much easier to flatten by hand. It is also cheaper, as I'm sure you're already aware. When selecting your materials, watch the growth rings and avoid the pith. Like John suggested, look at 2x10s for higher grade lumber. You'll need to dry out the lumber before you start working with it.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I used Hemfir (framing lumber here in Seattle) 2x4s for my first bench.
Not to disagree with someone who is published, but Hemfir 2x4, in spite of Chris Scharwz's recommendation, make a terrible benchtop.
It's too soft, it absorbs any liquid that comes within eight feet of it, it's too soft, it dents if you stomp on the floor above it, it's too soft, the glue is too much moisture for it, it's too soft, it isn't heavy enough, it's too soft, you can dig a hole in it simply by using it, it's too soft, the vise will press stuff so far into it that you will need to use chisels to dig them out, but mainly, it's too soft. The face of the bench to the vise does not grip, it swallows.
After using one for several years, I'm now going to replace it with one made from A. macrophyllum, and I wish I'd done it in the first place, simply because the money would still be gone, and I would have had a benchtop all these years that wasn't too soft and didn't absorb all the coffee that is spilled in the house next door.
Edited 3/11/2009 11:44 pm ET by Jammersix
Robin,
I am just gluing up an english bench with top 30x96. I am using ash which is about half the price of maple. I bought 8/4 and the english bench is glued edge to edge and i will still end up with 1 3/4. I can get by with that thin, because 10 in aprons are in the front and back to support it.
In any case, it took 100 bd ft @ 2.50/ft. With odds and ends, will be under 300 in wood.
Not sure if you robinwi2 means you are in wisconsin, I am in madison and if you are close and I can help let me know.
thanks,
Stevo
I built my best workbench top by getting a 4' x 8' piece of 3/4" cabinet grade plywood ripped lengthwise by my home center.
I then took the two 'ugliest' sides and glued and clamped them together leaving the two best sides for the top and bottom. If you wish, you can rip 3/4" hardwood, pine, or poplar to width and edge band the edges for a finished look.
After several years of abusing the top you can flip it over and start all over again.
Edited 3/12/2009 1:08 am ET by PaPasWorkshop
I built the top of my bench using 2 sheets of 3/4" laminated pine boards because I did not trust my planing skills to produce the kind of top I wuld like. I then "varnished" the top with marine epoxy, which hardened it up a treat, and edged it with beech to protect the edges.The intention is to replace it with a proper hardwood top at a future date. (Date = When I learn to joint properly OR buy a jointer) Cost was 54 Euros for the wood, 23 Euros for the epoxy. Call it less than $100. It is holding up reasonably well but is not as ding resistant as I would like.
I built mine out of SYP 2x4s about 3 years ago. It's very solid. I did not, however, allow the wood to fully dry and I have some small gaps in one end of the bench now, but they're not enough to get worked up about. It's not a dining table after all (well not usually anyway).
Anywho, I bought all of my 2x4s from the local big box and was very, very picky about what I bought. I think if you include the price of wood glue, my bench cost me about $98.00. It's 30" x 108" and stands 35-1/4" above the ground and doubles as an outfeed table for my tablesaw. I have no regrets.
The tools I had at the time were very limited, but my wife wouldn't let me use the kitchen counters and I was tired of trying to fix stuff on the floor!
If you can, I recommend running a threaded rod through the width of the table to help with wood movement. Mine is too wide to drill now, but I wish I would have thought of it while I was building.
Good Luck!
>> I recommend running a threaded rod through the width of the table to help with wood movement. Mine is too wide to drill now, but I wish I would have thought of it while I was building.You're probably lucky that you didn't install threaded rod. It doesn't work and can cause the top to deform. If you install the rods when the wood is at it's maximum expansion due to seasonal humidity, the rods will loosen up when the wood contracts in a drier season. If you then tighten them up, the nuts and washer will be pulled into the wood--YOU CAN NEVER STOP THE WOOD FROM EXPANDING AND CONTRACTING--causing damage to the edges. Then the next cycle of drying will loosen up he rod again. It's a never ending cycle.Howie.........
What will win: the irresistable force or the immovable object?
I know they used to split rock off cliffs by drilling holes, inserting wood stakes and then pouring water on the stakes. But in my minds eye I wonder what would happen if used as many Bessy K-bodies as would fit and restrained a benchtop in the dead of winter when contraction was at it's maximum - would the top really break those Bessy's when it expanded?
No one has migrated to 3" thick granite benchtops? ;-)
Ooooh, granite...
>> But in my minds eye I wonder what would happen if used as many Bessy K-bodies as would fit and restrained a benchtop in the dead of winter when contraction was at it's maximum - would the top really break those Bessy's when it expanded? Depends, sometime the wood would just indent or curl depending on the hardness of the wood or other factors. As the old saying goes: "Something's got to give." Plus it would make for conversation piece explaining why those clamps are always on the table.Howie.........
I didn't mean I'd actually do it of course. I was more imagining the clamps as a perfected version of the rod. I understood the theory behind using the rod to be that it essentially acts as a permenant clamp.
What will win: the irresistable force or the immovable object?
Woman, as in your mate. You, as the immovable object. Ya fussin at eash other and she smiles at you..
You guess who wins!
Sam,
If the clamps didn't break or deform, the wood could incur what is known as "compression set". That is when the cell walls are crushed or deformed by the pressure when they try to expand, but cannot. Then when moisture is lowered again, the cells shrink, and the width of the panel becomes less than when the constraints were applied in the first place. This subsequent shrinkage is in extreme cases often accompanied by overall checking of the wood surface, when the crushed cells pull apart. Ever see a tabletop that has sat out in the weather for a while? The top, held flat, develops set when its surface gets wet and cannot develop cup to compensate for the unequal moisture. Then when the top surface dries out, it checks all over, as its interior doesn't shrink as much.
In the case of the rods in a benchtop, if the movement ( stable species, quartersawn stuff, minimal humidity swings) wasn't too extreme, the wood might not develop set, but likely the rods would be tighter then looser with change of seasons.
Ray
Thanks, Ray! I knew it was worth asking these silly questions out loud. I love learning new stuff about wood and how it behaves. Cool information.
R. Bruce Hoadley, Understanding Wood, Taunton Press; 1980.
Howard, I have built softwood benches for many years for manufacturing plants and a few labs .Though the sizes of the benches varied do to specs, one thing was a constant.Every bench had a 5/16" threaded rod in a 7/16 bored hole.The perimeter boards were counter bored for the nut,washer and the ratched to pull it up. Most benches were made in three sections,then these were glued up and finished. Each section consists of 7 pieces of 1 1/4"x 3 1/4" glued up. The third section usually had 8 boards.This makes the finished top 27"+ or -.
I never had a callback because of loose allthreads or any deformity of the top. As a matter of fact I never had any callbacks of any kind on the benches.I'm talking about at the very least 150 mostly softwood benches. I would pickout the best lumber I could find well in advance of making them.Sometimes 2x4's sometimes wider stock I rip down.Solar kiln dried to 9or 10%.
I will attach a file of the last bench I made for my grandson.The only difference in this bench and the average ones I built is the height and the vice. If I recall This bench is about 24" high for now.I cut longer legs for when my 9 year old ( at that time) grandson grows taller. The homemade vice is the other difference, I rarely put vices on the production benches.Also will attach a file of my homemade glue press for laminating the bench.
mike
About 20 years ago, I was faced with the same problem. What material can I make a workbench out of that would be cheap and effective. I wanted something on wheels that could be rolled around the shop to the table saw as a support for plywood or long boards and as a tool box. I went to the local lumber yard and ordered 8 foot kiln dried 2x4's. I also ordered 1/2 inch all thread. After acclimating the lumber to my shop I joined the tops of the 2x4 so that the bevel the lumber yard places on 2x4's was eliminated. I drilled each board in the middle of long side with a hole big enough for the rod to slip through. Then I took glue and glued the boards together and as I did it I used nuts and washers to apply pressure from side to side. I also used every bar clamp I had to apply pressure. After the glue dried I scrapped and then hand planed the top surface again to smooth the top. I build 4X4 legs with 2X4 stretchers around the top and close to the top of the casters. Then I build a cabinet to fit into this opening. There are many drawers which I use for tools like, screwdrivers, plyers, measuring stuff, hammers etc... Each drawer is a slip through drawer. You can access the contents of each drawer from either side. I placed a long vise on one end. This unit is very heavy, almost too heavy to move around. When you hammer on this bench, it is solid! After several months the top gets to looking bad and I just hand plane the top and finish with a 4x26 belt sander.
I'd like to drive a Rolls Royce but can only afford a Dodge Sprinter. 2x4's are a poor mans choice but maple, actually beech is a fine choice for a work bench. My largest bench is solid MDF, 2" thick, with 3/8 " maple veneer on both the top and bottom. perfectly flat, solid, and heavy as can be.nco
robinwi2
if at this stage, you already have enough pride to consider aesthetiics in your workbench, you probably won't be satisfied until you get the perfect maple/ash top. If it was me (it was once) I would concentrate on building the solid base you want. I went through successive tops of, 3/4 plywood, 1.5 MDF, surplus laminated kitchen counter (that works very well, BTW), solid core door ($10 at Habitat for Humanity) and now finally, maple butcher block (Sam's Club work table $129). They all work. They all get beat up.
The last five I built have been from SYP. If you go there, use the 2 x 12's as John W. mentioned. But.. rip the rounded over edge.. then rip a 3" wide strip off each side. Throw the center pith away or use it for some construction project. By doing so.. you end up with two pieces that have QS grain... //////
I have built them with soft maple and hickory. They both work and are relatively cheap but.. not as cheap as SYP. And don't be fooled into thinking it is super soft as spruce or white pine. If you have ever seen it completely dry you understand it is a softwood for identification but very heavy and dense by character.
Here's a picture of the one I built about a year and a half ago. It moved about .035 in one condensed area here in the southern humidity in that time. It took about 15 minutes to true with a #7 jointer. The first is the area that was slightly off over a year. The 2nd was after planing. BTW... I make bases with Doug fir.
Good luck...
Sarge..
Robin, My first workbench top was 2 pieces of 2X6 and 2 pieces of 2X8 edge-glued together. When the edges were planed to get rid of the rounded corners before gluing, I ended up with a 24 inch wide top. The wood I used at the time was Doug Fir. Added a cheap Craftsman vise and used it for nearly 20 years. You aren't making furniture, it's a tool.
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