Hello,
I saw a cherry cabinate on the weekend that was finished with a 3 part oil (BLO)varnish (POLYURATHANE) and mineral spirit mixture. I started playing around with this last night and had little success. Can any one tell me what proportions they use for this? and if you have time the process you use?
Thanks,
Replies
Try 1/3 BLO, 1/3 spar varnish, and 1/3 turpentine. This works. It is Garrett Hack's recipe from an article a few years back.
This is a wiping/'penetrating' formula. It does not give coverage in one application. In fact, the first application will look horrible. It is buffed off, etc. Try to find Hack's article - I have a bruised hand and don't want to type the whole routine although it's not very complicated.
Edited 10/2/2007 7:26 am ET by BossCrunk
Thinned oil/varnish finishes (Watco is one commercial equivalent) can look very nice on cherry. Apply the mix liberally and keep the surface wet for perhaps 15 minutes adding more material if parts soak up enough finish to start to look dry. Don't wait so long that it to start to get tacky. Then wipe all the excess off. You don't want to have it build a film on the surface but to get an smooth, even "in-the-wood" finish. (If you let a film build on the surface the oil/varnish film would be quite soft.) After the first coat cures sand using 320 or finer grit paper to remove roughness. Then apply more coats, letting them cure between. You can lubricate fine sandpaper with the material to assist getting a smooth finish, but you should still wipe off all the excess.
Below is what I used to do, but read until the end...
I varied the contents as I built the finish. For the first coat, I used a mix of 1/4 Tung Oil, 1/4 Varnish and 1/2 Turpentine, flooding the surface on 15 minute intervals until it looked like it would take no more then wiping the excess.
For the second and third coat, I used 1/3 Tung Oil, 1/3 Varnish and 1/3 Turpentine, following the same flood/wipe off excess. I would use the grey finishing pads between coats. I'd usually wait a couple of days between coats. If the finish gummed up the finishing pad, I'd let it dry longer.
For the final coat, I'd go 1/4 oil, 1/4 varnish, /1/2 naptha. The Naptha made the last coat dry before it could collect dust.
Then...... I started really reading about what alkyd varnish is made of, and realized that I was just modifying something that was already a combination of oil, resin and thinner.
Now, I use Waterlox original. It takes about 4 coats to build gloss. I can stop sooner for a matte finish, or continue and build more gloss. I like the ability to control the gloss "on the fly"
When I'm not using Waterlox, I use shellac. It's the most lush finish you'll ever find.
Yes, Frenchy, you converted me!
Does any body know if you can tint waterlox with artist oils or minwax? I tried artist oils andit didnt work very well at all.
The boss does not like natural wood so I am doomed until I can find a process that is easy and will yeild a dark brown finish that does not hide the grain.
Thanks for all your answers and wisdom!
Except with spray facilities, you are almost always better off to separate the coloring steps from the top coats. So begin with dye to get the color right, then seal and use a pigmented stain to add some depth, and then use the appropriate top coats. There are lots of variants on that basic theme, of course, but working with tinted varnish or lacquer is quite challenging. It works out that several easy steps are a lot easier that trying for the all in one finish.
I don't know about Waterlox, having never used it. But I have used artist oils with Watco as a carrier. The technique is similar to a painter using a drying oil as a thinner for their oils. This is done when doing a technique that painters call glazing. Mix an amount of oil paint with some of your finish. It doesn't have to be completely a homogeneous mixture. The idea is to use enough of your Watco or other drying oil finish to somewhat dilute the oil paint and cause it to dry within a finite amount of time. Oils used by themselves may take years to fully dry.I've had great success using this process and can achieve results with little fuss that are difficult to get otherwise. The color combinations are virtually endless.
That advice from steveschoene is right on the money. Take a little time to bring it up to whatever you want with dyes and pigments. The final finish is more fun to do if you are just "applying a film" and not trying to put all your money on one step and being ... dissappointed.
Note: do some test pieces. I wish I had done that on some stuff I built years ago. Live and learn.
Dan
Chances are that your Poly already is an oil mix.
Your definition of sucess is what is at question here. Every one likes their finish to behave differently.
Put simply... More oil= slower drytime, more dust contamination, better flow, more durable finish.
More varnish= faster dry times, more brush marks, more yellowing with age, more issues with cracking and blistering due to climate.
A common schedule is to use straight BLO for the first coat, wiping off all excess. Then follow with as moany oil/varnish coats as you deem necessary.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I don't understand why you would think poly would be an oil/varnish mix. There are some oil varnish mixes with polyurethane varnish of course, but it's usually pretty clear on the label. But when it just says polyurethane it's almost always varnish--no oil. In fact, some times things are really varnish when you might think from the label that its an oil/varnish mix, or just oil. Examples are Formby's Tung Oil Finish, which is a varnish not an oil and may not have been made using any tung oil, or Waterlox, which isn't so blatant, but is made with tung oil as an ingredient, but the product it self isn't a mix with oil it is a varnish.
There isn't much advantage (or for that matter disadvantage) in using a polyurethane varnish in the mix. Similarly, there is nothing advantageous in using spar varnish--its just a varnish formulated to be particularly flexible and soft, but mixing varnish with oil already takes care of that.
Properly used, dust and or "cracking" of the finish isn't an issue, since oil/varnish mixes are designed to be applied and then have all excess wiped off. There isn't a film to collect dust, nor is there a film to crack or blister. If you want to build a film, 100% varnish is more appropriate and will be much more durable than an oil varnish mix allowed to build a film. On indoor furniture varnish will last a very long time--though probably not as long as shellac.
You are right most "oils" have varnish in them to speed curing. However there are very few pure varnish products out there. the manufacturing process itself leaves some of the origional oils. I know that there are some speciality varnishes availible that are "pure varnish" But unless it very specifically states that it is a pure varnish it will have oil also. The oil is necessarry to make the varnish workable and flow nicely.
I garuntee you that all the Polyurethanes at Home Depot and Lowes have plenty of oil in them even though most dont mention the oil or the fact that it is a varnish.
I have talked to manufacturers about this, this is stated in both of the generally accepted bibles of finishing, it is on Wikipedia, google, Dictionary.com, and so on. However it is almost never stated on the product or mentioned in the manufacturer's litriture. Who knows why? There is a history that sort of explains it, but seems silly now.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Varnishes are made with various oils (linseed, soya, etc.) but are not a "mix" as is being described here. Gretchen
That is true. some of that oil remains after the the processing into varnish is complete. Also it is unreasonable to use a pure (or high concentration) varnish because it needs the oils to give it workability and durability. The resins added to the mix (Polyurethane for example) help to keep the varnish flexible and durable. Again, do some research and you will find this to be the case.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I do not agree with your explanation of "varnish". Varnish is manufactured by heating a resin and a drying oil to a certain temperature at which the two combine into a new compound called varnish--there is no oil left over. Thinners are then added to allow the varnish to be brushed or sprayed. Neither the resin or the oil remains as a separate or separable ingredient. The resin can be compared to the yeast used in bread and the oil can be related to the flour. Once they are mixed and cooked, the result is bread. Neither yeast nor flour remains as a distinct or separate item.The resins that can be used are phenolic, alkyd, urethane or some combination. The oils used are tung, linseed or soya.The characteristic of a particular varnish is determined by the amount of resin to oil and/or the type of resin to the type of oil. If you want formulate a water resistant, exterior varnish a phenolic resin/tung oil combination will produce that characteristic. Exterior varnishes will be made with a higher proportion of oil to resin to make the varnish more flexible. If you want a light colored, non-yellowing varnish the resin of choice would be alkyd and the oil would be soya. For an interior varnish, normally it will be formulated with a higher percentage of resin to oil to make the finish harder. If you want a least cost varnish, then urethane resin is normally chosen with a linseed oil as the oil. Some varnishes are made with a mixture of alkyd and urethane resin to give the varnish somewhat more scratch and abrasion resistance.
Howie.........
What I think mudman means is that apparently some manufacturers have added back a smidgen of non-evaporating oil to improve flow out when they removed VOC's. It's a basically trivial addition, not unlike other flow, or anti-foam, or anti-skin additives that aren't actually varnish itself but are there nonetheless. It's apparently the cheap way out and a characteristic of low-end products since there is at least a bit of degredation of the finish quality. See Flexnor, revised ed. p. 162 on the future of varnish.
However, it still doesn't really justify calling most varnishes oil/varnish mixes since the methods of application are entirely that of varnish, and have nothing to do with the oil/varnish mixes associated with Danish oil or the like.
>> What I think mudman means is that apparently some manufacturers have added back a smidgen of non-evaporating oil to improve flow out when they removed VOC's. You may well be correct Steve. I know that oil has been added as "thinner" in some low VOC formulas.Howie.........
tkbob,
what attracts you to this finish? Is it because its a wipe on finish?
The cherry cabinate that I saw used this process and it look great. A nice clear non blochy finish that was easy to appy and didnt require a totaly dust free environment. The cherry also had a really dark brown color, darker that just natural cherry.
Make sense?
I have 3 projects that are sitting waiting for finish but I have not found a finish that I really like... So I keep exploring and trying different things!
If the cherry had a really dark color, it was probably dyed. Cherry that has an oil and wax finish or shellac finish will darken with age, but this doesn't usually happen with a less permeable finish like varnish or lacquer.
Of course, linseed oil will darken the wood somewhat, and it's possible that that's what produced the effect you saw - depends on how light your idea of "dark" is.
Another factor that will affect the shade of the wood is the origin of the tree. Cherry trees grown in colder climates have the growth rings closer together and are darker than those grown in warmer climates.
George PattersonGeorge Patterson
Will dye penetrate evenly in cherry or maple? After you dye it would you then use the oil varnish mix asa top coat?
Dye blotches less than pigmented stains in either of those woods. Since dye has no binder, you can use the oil/varnish mix for your top coats.
Yes and yes. Steve Schoene has it right.George Patterson
Edited 10/4/2007 10:45 pm ET by grpphoto
You can use dyes made for oil (Behlen makes them, woodworker.com sells them), but they are not as light-fast as water soluble dyes. This may not be so bad for you, as cherry will darken over time: by the time the dye starts to fade much, the cherry will have darkened considerably from its fresh-cut state.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
Thanks all for your help, I have a couple things to try and I will let you know how it goes.
Just to let you know after I read somethings on here I read the can of "DEFT Danish oil" I have and it says that it is a tung oil with urathane mix that penetrates and hardens in the wood. I like the color of it but the stuff bloches like you wouldnt believe and it really does not work well if you thin it.
Thanks Again,
T
I'm no expert on the geographical differences in cherry, but my practical experience with it differs from your explanation. Maybe it's a difference in species with the common name "cherry". However, I have made furniture from "cherry" that was cut in Pennsylvania and from cherry cut in Florida and those pieces are in the same room which has lots of indirect daylight. The FL cherry is a very dark red brown, while the PA cherry is only slightly darker than when it was fresh about ten years ago. Last week I made a shelf of FL cherry and it's already showing some darkening. (All pieces have a poly finish on them.) Go figure.
tkbob,
Thanks, I was wondering if the ease and mistrake proof nature of wipe on was the attraction. If so I have a suggestion which I've found works for those of use who aren't talented painters but still like a nice finish..
My main objection with oil based finishes is the temporary nature of them. I've never found one that will hold up well over time..
My last project, a dining table, I used the 3part formula of Mineral spirits, BLO and Varathane Clear Finish. Apply the mix, leave 10 minutes and wipe thoroughly. Within an hour, wipe again. Repeat in 24 hours. I applied 8 coats on the dining table. A previous project, an armoire, I used Turpentine, BLO and Spar Varnish with the same application process. Some posts say the Spar Varnish does not give a hard finish so I switched to the Varathane Clear Finish. Both were satisfactory IMHO.
If you are wiping it thoroughly you should be able to apply your coats about an hour apart. You don't have to wait for it to cure since you are wiping off any excess.
Spar varnish wouldn't be any different in this application since you are not really building a film finish anyway.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled