Friends,
Three suggestions for improving Knots and the Fine Woodworking website:
Suggestion 1: Add a Folder to Knots entitled “For New Woodworkers”
Suggestion 2: Add a section to the Fine Woodworking Website entitled “For New Woodworkers”
In the past two weeks, three people have posted messages on Knots saying they are new woodworkers and want to know how to get started and what tools to buy. I sent similar responses to the first two. I read the entire set of responses to each of those threads, and I am not sure a new woodworker can deal well with the large amount of sometimes conflicting advice. If Knots adds a Folder called “For New Woodworkers”, it would be easy for new woodworkers to find previous threads which answer their question. When a new woodworker asks the old question, we can easily tell them where to find the answers.
For a more organized attempt to help new woodworkers, The FW Website could generate a section with its own “button” called “For New Woodworkers”, and it could have some more organized sections to help them out. For example:
– How to find woodworking clubs and others who could give you lessons.
– Different types of woodworking that you might be interested in.
– SAFETY
– A sequence of 10 projects, beginning with the simplist, with instruction.
– Illustrated lessons on common woodworking tasks, joints, etc.
– A sequence of tasks for those who want to pursue the use of handtools-only, and a sequence for those who want to use power tools.
– Advice on buying your first tools.
– the first two books to buy
– etc
Suggestion 3) In the Profiles section of Knots, there is room for each member to put info about themselves. However, the thing I would like to know about each member is: what do they build????? So why not add a gallery of 5 to 10 slots for the members to add photos of their work.
Thumbs up or down? Are these suggestions worth doing? Should they be modified? If there is support for either idea, we can let FW know.
Mel
Replies
Hey Mel,
Where you workin' now? Dept of redundancy dept? Hah,
Ray
I disagree with you. Being a new-ish woodworker myself, I more than appreciate the varied responses I get from the seasoned woodworkers who frequent this site. I fear that if I only visited the "new woodworkers" forum, I'd only get responses from other new woodworkers.
I hope other people here are not bothered by us "newbies" the way you seem to be.
TF
Toolfanatic,
I think you might have read something into 96's post that was not there. From personal experience I can tell you that 96 is both a gentleman and a scholar - and welcomes newbies with open arms and boatloads of encouragement. I think his post/request for a 'new woodworker' section is not meant to segregate, but rather to facilitate. It would gather all the "important to the new guy" stuff under a single heading so newbies can get up to speed faster, avoid posting questions on which there has already been much said, and generally get a handle on how the forum operates. This would not preclude newbies from going anywhere and asking anything, but it would give them a great jumping off point. Kind of like the FAQ areas on many web sites.
It's been my experience that new people are always welcome here. I think 96 just wants to make initial contact a little easier.
Just my 2 cents.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Rennie, Forestgirl, Boss Crunk, Pete Bradley, Ray (joinerswork), and gizmO,Thank you all for replying. Here is a single reply to all of you. Rennie guessed right. I was trying to add more service for new woodworkers. I was not trying to stop anybody from reading all of Knots. By the way, thank you very much for the kind words. The talented, intelligent, insightful, beautiful and erudite Forestgirl not only showed why FWW can't add another folder, but she also provided an optimal solution -- just provide those who ask "new woodworker" questions with links to previous threads. Thank you, Forestgirl. To borrow an old military phrase: "Roger, Willco."Boss Crunk has a depth of insight into the human psyche and a command of the English language that I can only aspire to. There is no doubt that he is fully correct in ascertaining that many of the Knots denizens have aspirations beyond their current capabilities, and that perhaps, once in a while, they may even convince themselves that they are a bit more capable than they really are. Well, Boss, I have to tell you that I need my delusions. Reality is far less attractive. You are a master of the use of incisive wit to enable others to see reality when it is partially but perversly occluded by extraneous argument. ((Translated into English: "Boss, I like your style."))GizmO, I fully agree with you that doing searchs on Knots is difficult and occassionally frustrating. I use the search function often to find things that I know exist, but sometimes it takes me a while to get there. I am not complaining, and I am sure that you weren't either. THis is a great site. However, the newbies will have the hardest time being successful in their searches, and thus really could use a little more help. Pete Bradley, your suggestion for using a FAQ provides another alternative for helping newcomers. I don't know the limitations of the FWW website. All we can ask is that the FWW people look into it. They do a great job. Thank you all. I have learned a bunch.
Mel
FWIW, I like your idea of a folder with common topics for those just starting out.
Boss,
When I read your original response, I figured that you felt that adding a folder is a good idea. But as Forestgirl pointed out, it is not possible to add a folder. So we'll continue to work around it, by responding with pointers (links) to previous threads. That may not be efficient, but there are no alternatives, and it works.
Thanks,
Mel
There has been a major re-work of Knots. I'm quite sure the moderators have the ability to add a folder or request that Prospero add on. This site has video on demand, plans online, pretty fair graphics, et al.The Cafe folder has restricted access.I believe that folders can be added and deleted pretty much at will.
Boss,
I sent a message to
[email protected]
and asked them about their ability to add a folder to Knots and to add another section to the main FWW site which focusses on beginners. When I hear back from them, I'll post a message with what they say. Popular Woodworking has a package for new woodworkers. It is at:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/icandothat/ICDT_Book_Aug06_HI.pdf I think that the FWW Editors could do much better than that. The info is all available. It just needs to be be collected, organized, and edited. IMHO, the best approach to teaching a woodworker, is to provide a starting task, followed by a sequence of more demanding tasks, where those tasks are selected:
1) to be interesting and to provide satisfaction,
2) to be safe
3) to include new skills on each task. The other approach, which is used in too many beginning books on woodworking is to explain the function of each tool in the workshop, and how to use it. This approach is like reading an encyclopedia. There is too much of that in the Popular Woodworking package. There is a lot of info there but you don't get a sense of accomplishment very quickly. You made an insightful point when you said that everybody in Knots thinks they are Krenov. It makes sense that most people who frequent FWW are experienced. However it is in FWW's interest to keep up a steady stream of NEW woodworkers, and hence "customers". So I think that FWW would be well served by providing a section of very good assistance to the newbies. Newbies not only "continue the species", but they quickly get out of the newbie stage, and get into the intermediate stage, where they can more safely take responsibility for their own learning -- which is the mormal state of things for most people on Knots. Also newbies keep us all "fresh" because they bring in new thoughts and ideas (along with reinventing all of the old ones). That will help insure the next generation of folks like Boss Crunk, Foresgirl, Mike Wallace, Richard Jones, Derek Cohen, Adam Cherubini, Phillip Marcou, Ray Pine, etc (people whose skills that I aspire to.) ((my apologies to all of the other great woodworkers on Knots whose names I didn't include on this quickly-generated list))That's the background on where I am coming from. Thank you for your advice and support. Maybe we can get something going on FWW for young'uns. Mel
Mel et all,
The [email protected] is the best way to contact us folks here at Taunton regarding the forums. I will review with Matt the suggestions made (which I think are excellent by the way) and will get back to you on this.
Forest girl is correct in that there are some serious limitations in the software, that runs these forums, in regards to the number of folders. The total number is 16 and we are currently maxed out. This was the main reason for the recent redesign.
I will say that we are in the process of putting together some forum FAQ's that should help "newbies" to the forums can we incorporate some newbies to woodworking info? I will work with Matt on that.
-Mark
Mark,
Thanks for the reply and the information.
Thanks for considering our suggestions for the new woodworkers.
Keep up the great work.
Mel
The other way to contact me is simply to start a discussion addressed to: SYSOP that way I will receive notification of the discussion. -Mark
Mark,
OK, now I know how to contact you. That probably won't happen often. I don't get these brainstorms all that often. I really appreciate your help.
Mel
Mel,
I removed the other thread that you started that was the same discussion. If you want it returned I will do so but since it was a repeat...
So Pete and Repeat are in a boat and Pete jumps out, who was left? -M
Mark,
You did the right thing, as always.
Thank you.
Mel
If you are maxed out I think that you can safely delete the folder entitled "Knots Fests" and replace it with something that would be more frequently used.
That was the one option I was considering let me speak with the editorial folks and see what they think. Maybe we can rename the folder to "New to Woodworking" or something along those lines and when the FAQs are done we can link to this folder. More TK on this. -Mark
How about..."Getting Started..."??
Edited 7/13/2006 11:33 pm by Little Joe
Toolfanatic,
Great reply! Great attitude! Sounds like you are well on your way in woodworking. Congratulations. I was not trying to keep new woodworkers out of the rest of Knots. I was merely trying to give them a place to go first, if they so choose, which is clearly marked and easy to find. One can find the other posts by new woodworkers and the responses they received, but it entails a lot of searching, and trial and error. There is something else that I was trying to do.. That is to get FWW to think through the question of how best to gather and organize and present a set of information to new woodworkers. The info is all "out there" somewhere. It just has to be gathered and organized.Please understand that I was not trying to block any doors. I was only trying to provide an additional service to new woodworkers. In general, I think the best person to learn a new skill from is not an older expert, but a person who has just learned it. They know well what the problems are in learning this skill. The older folks have forgotten the things that were bothering them when they first learned these skills. Real teaching involves more than just talking. It requires that the teacher have insight into the mind of the learner. The best teachers are the best listeners. Maybe you are in a great position to provide good advice to the new woodworkers who write in!! Give it a try.Enjoy.
Have fun.
Do lots of woodworking.
Make masterpieces as well as practical pieces.
Be safe.
Floss every day.
And help others learn more about woodworking.
Mel
Then I misunderstood. My apologies.However, I will say that in my experience, I get the best responses to all of my questions on the "general discussion" forum. I know there are other more specific forums for tools, techniques, finishes, a classified section, etc. But, I've found that I don't get as many responses to my questions when I post in those forums.I know it annoys some people seeing these more pedestrian-type questions on the general discussion board, but I'm here to learn and feel that's where I do most of my learning.TFToolfanatic (a.k.a. The man formerly known as "Toolfreak")
Toolfanatic,
No need to apologize. If I could write better, you wouldn't have misunderstood. I get the feeling that you are not what I would call a "newbie". To me, the newbies are the folks, like the three who wrote to Knots during the last two weeks, who want to get into woodworking but don't know where to start and don't have any tools. That's a real newbie! You, on the other hand, have already taken control of your own destiny. You know what questions you want answered. You know where to get the answers you consider good. You are a tool fanatic. We are all learning. Knots is a great place for people who want to continue their learning, and to help others learn. THAT IS A GREAT THING! I was bitten by the woodworking bug in 1968. I may write a book on all of the mistakes I have made. On my first raised panel doors, I made the rails go all the way across, and the stiles just joined the rails. But I was safe, I had fun, and I don't make that mistake any more.Then I went through a phase in which I just stuck with the things that I had learned to do. Psychologists refer to that as "Fear of failure" . A preferable state of mind is "Need for achievement". For a decade now, I have been trying lots of things that are old to others but new to me. I can't tell you how thrilled I was when my first set of hand-cut dovetails went together. Now I wonder why I ever used a jig. From this message and from my previous ones in this thread, I think you can see that I believe that we are all learning and teaching, but that the "real newbies" have a hard time breaking into that mold. Those are the folks who need an initial push in a good direction. Then they become like you, and take responsibility for their own learning. Maybe we can get FWW to give that extra bit of help to the folks that you have already bypassed.Good luck with your woodworking. Why not answer this message by including a few photos of stuff you have made? If you do that, I'll put up a photo of my dry sink with the rails and stiles reversed. :-)Enjoy, and thanks for writing,
MelPS Here is a quote from Frank Lloyd Wright:
"An expert is a man who has stopped thinking - he knows!"If that is the case, we should all hope that we don't become experts.
96, I think we've just hit a point in time where certain stars and comets are aligned and 3 newbies posted in quick succession. And, being newbies, they probably weren't aware of the previous posts.
A salient point to keep in mind is that the software here at Taunton is heavily structured by Prospero and they don't have flexibility to change much in the profile feature, or in the number of folders available. These restrictions have caused inconvenience (understatement) in the past and will continue to do so.
My solution when a new thread is a near-duplicate of a more recent one is not to respond with info, but to respond with a link to the earlier thread. IMHO, that saves folks time and energy, and helps newbies understand about searching or browsing before posting.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I think a FAQ might help a lot. There's an endless procession of "Which model of blurfl should I buy" questions that might be better handled by a "what to look for in a..." section. Ditto for questions on plugging a n X amp machine into a Y amp circuit which are usually caused by confusing machine manuals trying to use a circuit breaker in place of overload protection (and invariably draw 50% wrong/dangerous advice); dust collection (difference between dust collector and air filter, pointer to pentz site and perhaps leading manufacturers, etc.); and the basics of band saw blades.
Pete
Had one of the first blufls ever made, but got rid of it when I learned how to do it by hand....
Oh no, you can't attempt to identify beginning woodworkers. All woodworking is fine woodworking. It wouldn't be politically correct or inclusive enough to attempt to stratify and serve people according to their experience in the craft.
A beginner has every right to be as Fine a Woodworker as somebody who has been doing it for 30 years and earns a living at the craft.
If you have a subscription to the magazine you're already A Fine Woodworker.
There are people on this board (winkin' and blinkin') who couldn't build a decent six-board chest that chime in on equipment selection, joinery, and finishing questions all the time.
Look Ma, I built a Shaker end table. James Krenov, watch out.
Just wait, these newbies you mentioned will be advising you and me next month on the relative merits of Japanese vs. Western style paring chisels and whether or not the additional Rockwell hardness of the Japanese chisels truly presents a problem on North American hardwoods.
Edited 7/12/2006 4:17 pm ET by BossCrunk
Boss,
You speak well for having your tongue so far in cheek. ;o)
Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Edited 7/12/2006 1:45 pm by Rennie
Being a new woodworker, I'm gonna throw in with 9619. I definitely don't think the post was negative or offensive and I appreciate the thought and effort to help us out! Both times I've posted questions, I've tried to use the search function to find existing related threads so I don't duplicate questions, but either I'm doing something wrong or the search function aint functioning. Probably the former.
Regardless of whether or not FW is able to add a new folder to the community, I can't say enough how much I appreciate the wealth of information and experience I've found here. You men and women have my utmost respect.
That is all.
96,
Perhaps the issue is not so much the design of the site but the design of the metadata (the data about all the info on the site).
There is some kind of metadata schema in operation, as the FWW index, contents and the search engine (for 3) must use it. But this schema isn't published (as far as I can see); nor are there any associated help pages about how to learn, use or suggest adaptions to the schema.
It's very common for the metadata schemas of sites like this to be set up at the start but then rarely changed to meet the growing needs of the users to both establish new, and to find established, information. The trouble is that the maintenance and change of metadata schemas is not trivial.
Still, there could be low-cost. low-effort improvements, not least of which would be to publish what the schema looks like now, so we can all see the information categories and sub-categories by which Knots is currently organised. We (including newbies) could then have a better idea of how to search and what the information entities are called.
We would also then be able to suggest improvements - new and redundant categories (like "newbie base data"); new relationships (links) between categories; and so forth.
Lataxe, ex schema-designer.
Lataxe,
Right on, dude!
You are one savvy computer weenie.
Since I can't think of anyone who can state it better than you, why don't you send a message to
[email protected]
and make the suggestion that they let us in on that info. Is that the best point of contact at FWW, or is ther a better one?
You are onto something good.
Thank you very much,
Mel
This is a great idea and we here at the magazine share many of your sentiments. In fact, we have some pieces in place already for a "Getting Started in Woodworking" homepage and are working to complete such a project in the future.
A few comments on your three suggestions:
1. If everyone in Knots is game, we'll get rid of the "Knots Fest" folder immediately, and create a new one called "Getting Started." (currently we're maxed out on folders)
2. We have a great deal of information on our site already for getting started in woodworking but it is not currently aggregated under one page. For example, using the navigation above there are 130 category pages, which each feature a "Basics" article that covers just that. Here's one on milling lumber. (now only 129 more to read)
As Latax said in one of his posts to this discussion, creating a single page for beginners would involve doing some work to our metadata. That's not difficult at all. The hard part is going through all 20,000 pieces of content on our site to identify all the pieces that need to be tagged with the new metadata.
3. Because our forums are hosted by a third-party provider, we don't have much flexibility with the fields in the forum profiles.
Everyone: please continue posting ideas to this thread and I'll stay in touch as we make changes.
Regards,
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
It's disappointing to learn that the revamped site is already running into limitations imposed by the hosting agency. Sounds like it's time for a change, otherwise, how will the site grow and become even better?
I wouldn't say we're running into limitations, other than the longstanding one that the forum can only have a certain number of folders. That's been the case from the start, and we attempted to overcome that by creating multiple forums but we heard loud and clear that that wasn't a good solution.
Everything else discussed in this thread is perfectly possible and not limited by technology, only by hours in the day...
Matt,
That metadata is the key, in the sense that knowing how it's structured and what categories/relationships it contains allows you to tweak the navigational and search tools to make the best of it. "Best of it" usually means enabling accurate identification of specifics and avoiding the sort of wholesale dump of hundreds of references, the syndrome that you describe.
Most users are not going to want to decipher a metadata schema, even the "user-object" version of it, so you lads inevitably have the difficult task of constructing some tools-for-metadata-use. Perhaps it would be possible to both refine the tags or keywords, as you mention, but to also provide help in the form of search-term recommendations, including Boolean combinations of search words that will zero in to specific topics without the "hundred hits" syndrome.
But you already know all this, probably; what you need from users is perhaps a series of WW topics that are commonly required. The "new to WW" topic is just one; and that could probably be differentiated into a series of sub-topics.
For myself, I would like the Knots material to be reorganised, with the genuine WW wisdom extracted into a Wiki-style facility. One virtue of this is that the Knots knowledge becomes a usable resource, rather than a zillion posts that must be waded through via the search engine, with only a remote hope of finding the 3 posts that will answer your question, maybe, if you're lucky.
Another virtue is that, once set up, it is largely constructed and amended by the users themselves.......
Lataxe
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