Replies

1. 
   DonStephan | Apr 28, 2003 02:56am | #1

   I was told that the soaked surface of the waterstone should be rubbed with the nagura stone "until a paste forms".  That paste seems to dry very quickly, and I keep a damp sponge nearby to squeeze a bit of water on the stone to keep the paste wet.  If I remember right, jumping from 1200 to 600 grit stone is common, so shouldn't need intermiediate grit.  I would think that after at most a couple minutes of polishing all of the 1200 grit scratches would be removed.  When honing the bevel, how long does it take to raise a burr on the 6000 grit stone?  Not sure if entirely correct, but I equate raising a burr to sufficient time at a grit.

2. 
   Andrew | Apr 28, 2003 05:35am | #2

   The key mistake is skipping a grit. Try using a 4000 grit stone in between. It'll take the 1200 grit scratches out a lot faster, and leave you with less work. The more grits you go through the less work you make for yourself.

3. 
   pauld | Apr 28, 2003 06:03am | #3

   Trusche2,

   You might want to try cleaning your 6,000-grit stone - if it's contaminated with coarse material it'll act like you've described. Also make sure it's saturated before you commence, and keep it plenty wet while honing.

   Good luck,
   Paul

4. 
   MarkRoderick | Apr 28, 2003 02:55pm | #4

   I go from 220 to 1000 to 4000 to 8000.

   But just to give you an idea, when I go from 1000 to 4000 it takes perhaps three to five minutes of gentle lapping to get the correct result. Then another three to five minutes on the 8000 and I've got the mirror finish.

   Hours spent lapping on a water stone is way, way too much. Even going from 1000 to 6000, I would guess you were actually finished about two hours and 45 minutes ago.

   Make sure your stone is flat. Just a little while lapping on a 6000 grit waterstone and it will be somewhat out of flat, the stones are so soft.

   Remember, only the first inch or so of the chisel blade needs to be lapped, not the whole thing.

   Don't worry about building up a slurry, etc. Waterstones are not rocket science. Keep it a bit wet, so the lapping feels smooth and easy, and you'll be fine. Gentle pressure is the right feel.

   If I were you I'd start again. First flatten the stones, then start at 220 for just a few minutes, then 1000 for just a few minutes, then 4000, then 6000. In fifteen minutes you'll be done.

   The only exception to that rule would be if the back of the chisel has a hopeless "belly," in which case you'll either have to throw it away or use a belt sander to get it flat. But even from that point, once you get it flat it's just a few minutes with each waterstone.

5. 
   bsutton12 | Apr 28, 2003 08:54pm | #5

   I have had good luck using 400 grit and then 2000 grit wet/dry sandpaper on a piece of plate glass.  Usually takes only a few minutes.

6. 
   Alan | Apr 29, 2003 03:18am | #6

   Jack,

   You've gotten the right advice:  use a stone with a grit between your 1200 and your 6000 or you'll spend an awfully long time on the 6000.

   Alan

1. 
   greenebelly | Apr 30, 2003 06:13am | #7

          Just a different perspective. I found a chart ( don't know if it's true) in Woodcraft in the stone section. It compared the Japanese grit of 8000=2000 grit American. An old woodworker showed me to take a piece of wet/dry 600 grit and glue it to a piece of glass on one side and a piece of 2000 git to the other. He then took my chisels to a grinder and concaved the back ( be sure to keep it square to the edge face). Then use a guide and a couple of passes on 600 then several on the 2000 side . Then use a strop of leather and POW!!!!! Never have I had as sharp chisel's as I do now. And I don't have to buy expensive stones. Just a thought.

1. 
   GregB126 | Apr 30, 2003 08:50am | #8

   Greenebelly,

   Did you locate the comparison chart online?  If so, can you post a link?

   Cheers,

   Greg

1. 
   Ole | Apr 30, 2003 01:46pm | #9

   Here is the link:

   http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/assets/html/waterstones.asp?mscssid=00901ED58371464CD982AABEA9A927B3&Gift=False&GiftID=

   I use only a light pressure at the end of each grit, kind of reduces the scratches.

   Ole

   .... I Love the smell of sawdust in the morning....

   Edited 4/30/2003 6:50:27 AM ET by ORH

2. 
   greenebelly | May 01, 2003 10:45pm | #12

          No I didn't get it online. It is actually in their catalog, but you have to look carefully to find it.

2. 
   BG | May 05, 2003 12:11am | #14

   Greenbelly,

   Had a similar experience recently with a pro doing the same thing to my plane blade....came out incredible...he put a black marker stripe across the blade after the grind but before the honing...just to make sure it was square.

7. 
   MarkRoderick | Apr 30, 2003 02:18pm | #10

   An update on my earlier post. I said I spent no more than three to five minutes on each grit. After checking last night, I realize that was wrong. It's actually more like one or two minutes.

1. 
   trusche2 | Apr 30, 2003 10:52pm | #11

   Thanks to all for your suggestions and insights.  FYI - I spoke with a tech at The Japan Woodworker and he explained to me that what is important is that the back is flat and that a mirror-like finish isn't critical.

   Jack T (trusche2)

8. 
   Kunzwerks | May 04, 2003 11:59pm | #13

   I was thinking about your post when sharpening up some of my japanese chisels today. I use waterstones and depending on if the blade is new or has a chip, I go through 1000, 3000, and then step up to 8000 grit.

   So there I am sharping one of my chisels using the 3000 grit and getting a "mirror like" polish. So I'm thinking at your 6000, this shouldn't be a problem, however I notice it depends on the hardness of the steel. As you may know the japanese chisels have a harder steel "laminated" to a softer steel. Only the harder steel is used for the cutting edge. That's where the mirror like finish is showing, even at 3000 grit. Up the bevel edge where the softer steel comes in is still a dull grey. You can see the line where the soft steel is laminated to the harder steel. Final honing at 8000 grit still leaves the softer steel with a duller color than the cutting edge.

   So I'm thinking your sharpening some steel that is "softer" and simply won't take a mirror like finish. Let me know if you have had a chance to sharpen some of your other tools. You should be getting a polished look on some of your cutting edges (ie; plane blades).

1. 
   trusche2 | May 05, 2003 11:59pm | #15

   Kunzwerks,

     Your assessment is probably correct.  The chisels I am honing/lapping are a new set of Sorby bench chisels.  And yes I have read that Japanese chisels generally are made of a harder steel.  Even though I am not able to achieve that mirror like finish on the back, I do notice it on the micro bevel.  As I mentioned in an earlier post it is more important that the back is flat, not shiny.  The chisels seem to be working just fine.  Thanks for the response(s) and your suggestions.

   Jack T.

1. 
   MarkRoderick | May 06, 2003 08:41pm | #16

   Just a comment. It's not really meaningful to say the back should be flat rather than shiny. It's sort of like saying that it's more important for a chair to have a seat than legs. A chair must have a seat and legs, and the back of a chisel most be flat and just as finely honed as the bevel on the front. Don't forget that the edge you are trying to sharpen consists of the intersection of two faces, front and back. Both of those faces have to be equally honed or the edge won't be sharp.

   There is really no reason why the first inch on the back of your chisel shouldn't look like the front bevel, i.e., just as shiny. It's the same steel as the bevel, so by definition it will look the same as the bevel if honed equally.

1. 
   Accelar | May 06, 2003 09:51pm | #17

   It sounds like the advice has been everything you could hope for, so this is for emergencies - or if anyone reading this wanted to buy some waterstones. 

   Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com) had a deal on waterstones in their last catalogue (2 weeks ago ?).  If you don't live near one, they will have live people you can talk to about your problem at their telephone call centre or hook you up with an expert at the store.  They literally have a chisel expert.  These guys are awesome - truly awesome - on service. 

   I went to a store on Saturday afternoon and got most of what I needed.  The pieces I didn't because they were out of stock were shipped by mail  yesterday - I'll have them tomorrow - no charge.

   Last week I was in to buy some router parts and had a question.  They bought out a guy who works there - their "inhouse router expert" and who also teaches 3 of the different router courses they offer.  He took me back to one of the seminar rooms and demonstrated the technique I needed to use on the spot.  He spent an hour with me showing me a variety of time saving techniques in set up, and helping with the project.  Truly awesome.Gavin Pitchford