Honestly,
do you think it’s possible to achieve professional quality projects with a #7 jointer with maybe one of those magnetic fences from lee valley on it? or am i just fooling myself and do i need a powered jointer?
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Replies
Of course it's possible. Loook at all the fine furniture built before powered jointers existed.
My expereince with the Lee Valley magnetic fence (several years ago) was not positive. It may well have been my technique, but I ultimately concluded that a try square and winding sticks were better tools for squaring up stock than any fence for the plane.
I'm certainly no professional, but I haven't had any problems getting a nice, square joint with a #7, even without a fence -- at least, that's what my try square tells me.
A useful tip from one of Rob Cosman's "Rough to Ready" DVD is to angle the blade slightly to bring down the high side rather than trying to "tip" the plane by hand -- it gives you much better control over the correction.
If you're planing shorter pieces, make a shooting board. Use the tilt adjustment of the iron to square up the edges.
I no professional, but will it flatten nicely, you bet. I struggled with my Delta 6" and was tired of it. I decided to give hand planes a chance. Bought the LN #7 and low angle jack, and while it takes elbow grease, I have no problem flattening wide boards and even glued up tops with little trouble now. I owe it to Rob Causmans (pardon the sp) Rough to ready dvd. He made it quite easy. I also bought a David Charlesworth DVD, on sharpening, and general plane operation. I cant believe I'm saying this, but it's acutally quite nice to listen to music while working instead of the loud hum. I did a recent chest for my niece flattening all the stock with hand planes. Tired you bet, did it take a long time, yes.
Matter of fact, the new LN cataloug just showed up, I think its time to feed the addiction. Be careful, once you get the first one, the monkey's on your back! Someone warned me, but I did not listen, and now have quite a few of the nice brown boxes in my shop! Take care.
If you get rid of the brown boxes you can sqeaze a few more planes in the vacant space;) Troy
Space is the not the problem it's $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Rats, only to be wealthy!
Howdy!
<<do you think it's possible to achieve professional quality projects with a #7 jointer with maybe one of those magnetic fences from lee valley on it? or am i just fooling myself and do i need a powered jointer?>>
Absolutely! You can get at least as good of results with a hand plane as with a powered planer. Once you've gotten the hang of it, hand planing can be as fast, and often faster, than using a tailed apprentice....
I would suggest that you save your money on the side fence. Spend the time to learn how to plane square edges "freehand" (it doesn't take that long). Once you do, you'll find that jointing edges for panel making, etc., is incredibly fast and easy. It is also a skill that will translate directly to many other planing operations, such as trimming tenon shoulders, etc.
When you buy your plane(s) (if you decide to go this way), I suggest that you not waste your time or money on a new-manufactured Stanley or any of the imported hardware store brands (Groz, Anant, etc). IME, you will spend entirely way too much time fettling the plane and still end up with a so-so plane, at best. You're better off buying a pre-WWII Stanley (Record, Sargent, Millers Falls, etc.) and tuning it up, or buying a new Lie-Nielsen, Clifton, or Veritas. All three of those manufacturers' planes should be ready to go right out of the box, with, at most, just a light honing on the plane iron needed.
As others have already mentioned, several of Rob Cosman's and David Charlesworth's DVDs contain a tremendous wealth of information on planing techniques and sharpening. They are very much worth viewing. (Their other DVDs on other woodworking subjects are also very worthwhile.)
You also might want to take a look at some of the hand tool books, particularly Garrett Hack's Handplane Book. They contain a huge amount of information on buying, tuning, and using hand planes (and other hand tools).
Check out this site for a lot of useful info on hand planes and hand planing:
http://www.amgron.clara.net/index.htm Click on "Planing Notes" for the hand plane information.
The following will take you through planing a rough-sawn board to a dimensioned and surfaced board using only hand planes:
Hand planing (rough) lumber to dimension:
Ideally, you need 5 planes: a scrub plane, a #5, a #7 or #8, a #4 or #4-1/2, and a low angle block plane, but you can get away with a #5 and a low angle block plane -- it's just a little harder. (Or you can use wooden equivalents.)
You'll also need a good straight edge, an accurate try or combination square, a marking/panel gauge, and a pair of winding sticks (you can make these yourself). A card scraper (with holder, if desired) is also handy.
Select a board face for the reference face. Use a pair of winding sticks and a straight edge to determine the high and low spots. Mark the high spots and use the scrub plane to reduce them to the approximate level of the rest of the board. Check for twist with the winding sticks. Correct with the scrub, as necessary. By this time, you should have a roughly flat (length and width) board with no twist and with a lot of troughs in it. Use the #5 to remove the troughs from the scrub plane. (Planing diagonally or straight across the grain in both directions with the scrub plane and the #5 to remove the scrub troughs will significantly reduce tearout in most woods. Then follow up with the #5 by planing with the grain.) Once the troughs are mostly gone, use the #7 or #8 with the grain to plane the face flat. Once you get full length and full width shavings, you board is very, very close to FLAT. Check with the straight edge and winding sticks. Correct as necessary. Finish up with the smoothing plane (#4 or # 4-1/2). Use the scraper on gnarly grain that gives your smoother a hard time, but be careful not to scrape a dip into the wood. Part 1 of 6, complete.
Mark this face as your reference face. All other measurements of square, etc., will come from this face.
Select one long edge, and use the #5 to roughly flatten/smooth it, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Mark this edge as your reference edge. Part 2 of 6, complete.
Use the reference edge and the try/combination square to mark one of the short edges square. You can use the #5 to rough plane it flat and square to both the reference face and edge -- if the short edge is 4 to 6 or more inches wide; if not, then start with the LA block plane. (Chamfering the edges down to your cutting line will reduce tear out on the corner edges; alternative methods are to clamp a sacrificial piece of wood to the edge and let it tear out instead of your board, or to plane in from each outside edge.) Use the LA block plane to clean it up. Mark the other short edge to the desired length (saw it to rough length, if necessary) and do the same thing to the other short edge. Parts 3 and 4 of 6, complete.
Use your combination square or a marking/panel gauge to mark the other (unplaned) long edge to the desired finished width. Saw to rough width, if necessary. As you did for the reference long edge, use the #5 to roughly smooth it down almost to the cutting line, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Check for straight and square to the reference face and to the 2 short edges. All 4 edges should now be square to the reference face and square to each other. Part 5 of 6, complete.
Use your marking gauge, basing off the reference face, to mark the thickness of your board around all 4 edges. Flip the board over to the unplaned face and use the scrub plane to plane down almost to the marked reference lines (The bottoms of the troughs should be about 1/16 inch above the cutting line). Use the #5, and the #7 or #8, as before on the reference face, to make this face flat and square. Finish up with the smoothing plane and, as necessary, the scraper. Part 6 of 6, complete.
At this time, you should have a board with 2 flat, smooth, and parallel faces, 4 flat and square edges (long edges parallel to each other, as well as short edges parallel to each other, and all 4 edges square to the two faces and to each other), and of the required thickness, length, and width, ready for whatever needs to be done next.
The first board you do by hand will take what seems like an inordinately long time, but with just a little bit of practice, it becomes nearly as fast as -- and often faster than -- putting a board through a jointer, thickness planer, and sanding sequence.
If you have a shooting board, you can use it to assist with steps 2, 3, 4, and 5.
A couple of things to keep in mind:
Keep your plane irons SHARP!!
If you have only a couple of planes, open the mouth up for the initial rougher planing, and close the mouth for the finer, finish planing.
Let the plane do the work -- don't force it.
Skewing the plane often helps to reduce tear out and makes planing easier.
Try to keep the amount of wood removed from each face roughly equal; otherwise any internal stresses present may cause the board to warp or cup again, after you have put all that work and effort into making it flat.
Expect to get a good upper body work out!
The listed sequence is not the only sequence that this can be done in, but it works quite well.
Good luck, and have fun! There's nothing quite like the sense of accomplishment you get when you have taken a piece of rough-sawn timber and turned it into a nicely finished, dimensioned board, using only hand-powered tools.
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 10/23/2006 4:27 pm by pzgren
Edited 10/24/2006 1:19 pm by pzgren
i guess i wasn't thinking of it as a planer, i have a planer and it works well.
i'm thinking more of the jointing the edges of boards to glue them together.
i'm assuming that is doable as well.
For jointing edges for a glue up, hand planes are even better than a powered planer.
Reason is this: If you take the two boards you are going to join, and place the two faces you want together with the joint in the middle, then fold them, either together or away - doesnt matter, then place the edges to be glued up and the boards in a vice. When you plane the two edges simultaneously, the angles will cancel out, resulting in a flat glued up board.
What this means is that, you no longer have to worry about maintaining a perfect 90 degree angle. 89, 88, 45 even! all will unfold to a level surface!
Working one board at a time requires either to make the edge precisely 90 degrees or exact opposites. difficult.
Also, you can "spring" a joint with a handplane - dont think you can do it with a machine short of a CNC type. (CNC - computer numerical control, a robot)
Lastly, it is fun! And if we are doing this for enjoyment (hobby not business) then fun should be considered.
Mike
mb,
It is just as easy to use this same technique on a jointer. Just run one board's face against the fence, the other board's back against the fence, and any variation from 90* is cancelled out the same way.
Regards,
Ray Pine
Very doable, and not hard to learn. (That was what I was getting at in the first couple of paragraphs of my previous post; the dimensioning article was added just to give you an idea of what can be done with hand planes.)
Here's one way to plane an edge for panel making:
You'll need an accurate try or combo square, an accurate straight edge, a pencil, and a (jointer) plane.
Select a face to be your reference face. All measurements of squareness come from this face. Select an edge to flatten. Check the flatness of the edge with the straight edge. Mark any high spots. Trim just those spots with your plane (this will probably take only a pass or three). Use a pencil to place a continuous squiggly mark all along the length of the edge. Take a couple of full-length passes with the plane until the pencil marks disappear. About 2 to 4 inches in from each end (depending on the overall length of your board), place a line on the edge perpendicular to the length of the board (i.e., from face to face), and then run a squiggly mark all along the length of the edge between the two face-to-face marks. Start planing from the near face-to-face mark to the face-to-face mark at the other end of the board until the pencil lines disappear (this should take only a couple of passes). Now take one or two full length passes. Check with straight edge. You should have a very, very slightly concave surface from one end to the other (something on the order of 1/64 to 1/32 inch). Use the try square to check for squareness to your reference face, and correct as necessary.
This will give you a "sprung joint" which will help keep the ends of the board from opening up with humidity changes.
Some helpful techniques:
Set the plane iron for light to very light shavings, and make sure that it is square to the sole of the plane.
Make sure that your iron is SHARP. Stop planing and re-sharpen as necessary; this is much faster than re-doing your entire board because a dull iron caused huge tear-out just as you were about finished.....
Use a three-finger grip on the tote, with your index finger pointing alongside the iron in the direction of planing. Hook your forward hand thumb around the rear of the knob and use the edge of your index finger as a "fence" underneath the sole of the plane, alongside the face of the board (for obvious reasons, you don't want to do this if the face of the board is rough and splintery.....). This will help keep the sole of the plane perpendicular to the face and will help keep the edge square to the reference face.
Keep the tote vertical (90º); this will (help) keep your edge square to the reference face.
Skew the plane slightly if you run into uncooperative grain.
Register the front (toe) of the plane on the board, keeping most of the pressure on the knob, as you start your planing stroke. Transition the pressure to even on both the knob and tote in the middle of the board, and move the pressure back to the tote as the front end of the plane comes up to the far end of the board. This will help prevent rounding off the ends.
Use even, deliberate, moderate to slow speed strokes. Going too fast increases the probability of inducing unevenness (local high/low spots) in the length and of losing squareness in the width of the edge.
You can plane two board edges at the same time. To use this technique, choose the two edges that will be glued to each other and fold the boards together so that the two top faces are touching each other (like closing a book). Clamp the boards together so they won't shift position relative to each other. Plane the edges and get them straight, as described above. If there are any deviations from absolute squareness, the complimentary angles will cancel each other out when they are fitted together edge to edge.
If you have one, you can use a shooting board on shorter boards to help you get a straight and square edge.
All of this appears more complicated in writing than it actually is in practice. Give it a couple of tries on some scrap; you'll be surprised at how fast you pick up the technique and how fast you can prepare the edges of boards for glue-up.
This is only one of several ways that this can be done; it works pretty well for me. YMMV.
Good luck, have fun, and feel free to ask more questions if you need to.Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
I own a powered jointer, and I still take a final pass with a #7 before gluing up panels. The aforementioned method of clamping the two pieces together face to face before jointing is key.Pete
I've got a stanley jointer fence, and when I tried to joint some 14' stock for a lamination, I found great difficulty in achieving a good square edge.
The work all being done at the far corner of the blade would gradually work the blade so that it was "unsquare"
Until, that is, I realized that with the basic fence, all the thrust was on one side of the blade, I added a couple of blocks to the fence so that the trust from planing was at the centre of the blade, and lo and behold, my jointer plane would cut a true square edge over the entire length.
I would daresay that the LV fence, the GP fence all will percipiate the same effect unless they are "blocked up" to put the thrust on the centre of the blade. Seems like common sense to me.
And oh ya, even though I got a long bed jointer and roller stands, The handplane with a jointer fence was a substantially less strenuous gymnastic excercise.
Not only possible, but for me, preferable. Would do it agin.
Eric in Calgary
do you think it's possible to achieve professional quality projects with a #7 jointer with maybe one of those magnetic fences from lee valley on it? or am i just fooling myself and do i need a powered jointer?
Mikkimel
Without going into specifics (there is much excellent infomation on the "how" above), the simple reassurance is "yes, you can get a 'professional' joint using a hand jointer". It does take a little practice to do it freehand, but we are all capable of mastering the technique. If you prefer, there are jigs to help, such as the LV fence you mentioned.
Here is a three-board Jarrah tabletop.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
What are the dimensions of that top? Nice piece.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
What are the dimensions of that top?
Highfigh
It is a sofa table, the top of which is 4'3" x 1'2".
The remainder is Blackbutt, a nearly-impossible-to-plane wood that is more commonly used for flooring.
View Image
Interesting (which is why this piece came to mind to post it here), I built this table using a jointer plane and a spokeshave (because I couldn't do curves with a jointer plane). It was the piece I built as part of my review of the LV BU Jointer plane. The decision to only use a jointer plane was just a bit of fun.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/LVBevelUpJointer/index.asp
Regards from Perth
Derek
I am planning to buy a LN jointer plane soon. Would you recommend a #7 or a #8? I already have a #5, but want something longer.
#7.
I have both albeit restored Stanleys not new.
The #8 weighs a ton and I’m not convinced the extra length makes enough of a difference to justify the effort to move it.
Mike
I don't have room for a powered jointer so don't have one. I cut my boards on the table saw, then true up the edges with my longest plane (Stanley 6) It works great for me. You have to be careful with the plane. Take a couple strokes, then check for square. It is really easy to get your planed edge out of square with the sides. Take it slow, keep checking. I've always said we learn more from our mistakes than our successes.
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