I was out in the shop this weekend working on a simple sitting bench. The top is 12″x26″ x 8/4. The two legs are 12″ x 19 x 8/4. To mate the legs with the top, I want to put “handcut” dovetails in it. I wanted to make them larger so that no dovetail jig could match it.
I laid out the pins and tails, and set the bandsaw to 11 degrees. To make a long story short, after cutting pins and tails on the bandsaw they looked like crap. How can I do this? Should I try cutting them on the tablesaw? Bandsaw with a high dollar blade? This is ALOT harder than I thought it would be. Can anyone help me?
Jeff
Replies
You weren't very specific about how exactly they "look like crap." Are they loose with gaps or what?
FWIW, typically one cuts either the pins or the tails first, and then marks the corresponding pieces directly from those already cut. Your descriptions makes it sound like you simply tried to mark them out and cut them all at once, but I dunno if I'm reading you right.
Can you cut dovetails for a drawer? If you have been successful doing that, what's different with these pieces? As you can tell, I feel like I'm missing something. If you could say some more, I might be able to offer better tips.
Samson,
Sorry about no details, I was pretty frustrated when I wrote the original message.
I first mark out the pins and cut them on the bandsaw set at 10 - 11 degrees. I cut them out and then use the bandsaw to remove the waste. I then set the pins on the piece its going to be joined to and mark the tails. Set the bandsaw to 90 degrees and then cut out the tails and remove waste. Questions:
1. When cutting the pins and tails on the bandsaw, should I be cutting right on the line or should I cut short of the line and then somehow clean them up?
2. If I do cut short of the line, how do you clean them up and get a perfect line?
3. What size bandsaw blade should I use? If you cut right on the line, I know the blade must yield a perfect cut, mine is not.
4. Should I try this on the table saw?
I appreciate everyones help. I don't want to abandon this project and I keep wasting quality material!
I've only done dovetails by hand, but I use a bandsaw quite a bit. Here are some suggestions:1. When making your first set of cuts, pins or tails, use the bandsaw to cut close to your line, then use a really sharp chisel to clean up the sides.2. Then mark your tails or pins off of the first piece.3. Make the second cut using a bandsaw to get close to the line, then again use a chisel to clean up.4. Practice before trying it on your good wood.5. Something to consider: Use a handsaw for your second piece instead of a bandsaw.There really isn't any secret to making good dovetails, other than taking your time, and practice. It's like learning how to ride a bike -- a lot of mistakes at first, and then one day it just all comes together.
wil,
You say to clean them up with a chisel. Which direction do you go to clean them up? From the face of the pin down or from the end of the pin in with the grain direction?
Jeff
both...
Woodman,
It's possible to cut very good-looking dovetails on the bandsaw. The advantage to using machines vs hand methods is that machines have much higher inherent accuracy. But only if you use them in a way that the accuracy works for you. I think you are using the bandsaw in a way that actually works against you.
When cutting by hand, I always cut the tails first, then mark the pins from the tails. It can be done either way, with equal precision, and I don't want to start that argument here.
But I always use a knife to transfer the tails to the pins. Are you marking with a knife? It makes a big difference in accuracy as opposed to a pencil line, even a very sharp pencil.
Having the knife line as a very sharp, accurate reference, I use a chisel, referenced in the knife line, first straight down, then at a little angle cut to give the dovetail saw a little kerf to sit in to start off the cut of the pin. It's possible to do that for the bandsaw blade also, but it may be harder to control the wood into the blade than it is to control a hand-held dovetail saw into the wood. But with a little practice it should not be a problem.
But, to get back to my point, using "hand" methods on the bandsaw side-steps it's inherent accuracy. In his bandsaw book, Lonnie Bird describes an excellent dovetail method on the bandsaw, using spacer blocks. Once you use spacer blocks (all identical, of course) and a jig for setting the bandsaw's table to a repeatable, consistent angle, the resulting pins and tails have "machine accuracy." There is no beating the use of "stop blocks" for repeatable accuracy, over "measuring," on any cutting machine where multiple cuts are to be made.
The spacing and proportion of the joint can be anything that the "freedom" of hand methods give, depending on your selection of the dimension of the spacers. I highly recommend Bird's book for the description and drawings he provides of the process.
Rich
Thank-you Rich,
One question I do have for you. I have been reading a lot in regards to sending a TS blade to Forrest and having them grind a 11 degree bevel all the way around. Sounds like this might be a good idea too. Have you tried this way yet? How does it work?
Jeff
Jeff,
I have advocated the tablesaw method every chance I get. You obvioulsy missed those threads!
Yes, Forrest will regrind a blade for you. They also have their own blades ready for sale with the angle pre-ground. But why alter an expensive blade? Any sharpening shop can do the job. And there's no reason not to buy a low-priced circular saw blade, 7-1/4". It'll last forever used only for dovetails. Or get an 8" blade for your 10" table saw and have that reground.
But do the following before you cut dovetails on any machine:
1. Learn to do them well by hand. It is not hard. Anyone can do it very, very well. Don't go to another method until you are satisfied you can do them. There is nothing mysterious or special about them.
2. Read Steve Latta's article in FWW, issue 104 about the technique. Lots of little, indispensible tips and philosophy of the method in there.
Rich
Edited 2/12/2007 11:28 am ET by Rich14
As has been already mentioned, either way is fine, as long as the sides are clean when you're done.Practice, take your time, and you'll be able to do this, I promise. With all the mystique that surrounds dovetails, it isn't rocket science.I read an article recently about how the author set out to make a dovetail out of scrap lumber every day for a month, and found that his dovetailing got much better. To me, this says that it really is just a matter of practice.
"When cutting the pins and tails on the bandsaw, should I be cutting right on the line or should I cut short of the line and then somehow clean them up?"
Jeff
When cutting to a pencil line, try to "split the line on the waste side".
Here is a post that I wrote last week. Maybe you should try this method. 8 4:26 pm Billy, I like the TS method better than the BS method, especially for large work. I always cut the pins first, using a sled made by screwing a fence to two miter gauges set to 10 -12º, and a little 1/4" mdf bed for the work to ride on, with the work standing on end. I like to waste the wood in between with a jig saw, and a very thin blade, followed with a router to clean up the bottom. The router has a sub-base carpet taped onto it so there is no hole around the bit to drop into. I usually used a long dovetail bit, and just cut close by eye, then finished out into the corners with a skew.After scoring a light line across the tail ends for the bottom of the next cut, I usually clamped a nice straight square 3x3 onto the side, then clamped the part with tails to that, then with a knife, scribed the lines to mark for cutting the tails. Now tilt the TS blade to match the angle you used on the miter sled. With a new sacrificial scrap bed on the sled, make a zero clearance cut to index the marks to. You will cut one side from one side, then have to transfer the marks to the other side with a square. For the second cut, I always cut shy of the line, then guess by eye how much to move over to make the final trim cut. You will be surprised to learn how easy it is to guess 10-20 thousandths, and hit it. If you try to dry-run fit the parts and determine that you need to take off as little as .002", it is easy to just stand it back on the saw and trim that much off very easy and precisely. Once again waste the scrap with a band-saw or jig-saw, leaving a little extra to finish off with the router. One great thing about the TS is that all of these cuts will be straight and flat, and if you want to go back and trim 5 thousandths of an inch or less to make it fit perfectly, it is as easy as pie. as mama would say.
Well, by now you've gotten plenty of good advice and likely need no more from me, but I'll give you a bit anyway. If you're not to sure of the capability of your saw (or sawing as the case may be), and you don't have too many DT's to do, I recommend the following:
1. Mark the baselines (allowing a tiny extra thickness - 1/32" or less - to allow for cleanup of the joint later) with a wheel gauge that scribes a fine slice.
2. Mark everything else for the tails with a marking knife guided by squares, bevel gauge, or DT markers.
3. Saw a shade to the waste side of the knifed lines and cope saw and/or chisel out most of the waste to within a shade of the baseline.
4. Use your paring chisels to clean up the excess perfectly back to the knifed lines on all sides. Check for square across the "bellies" of the inside faces if necessary using a small square - you can make your own out cardboard if your dedicated tools are too large.
5. Mark the pins with a marking knife while carefully lining up the tails over the mating board (bench vise and same thickness extra plank help here)
6. Again cut to the waste side and then carefully pare back to the knife lines.
7. You may have to to do a few minor adjustments with some more paring if the fit is too tight.
This method is a bit fiddly and slow, but if you have only a couple feet of large DT's to accomplish, it will - with patience- yield very clean results. Purists will scream and pull out there hair that I'm suggesting anything other than "learning to saw to the line" etc. But frankly, what I'm proposing is very similar in many ways to stopped DTs where most of the pin formation is keen chisel work.
Jeff, if they "looked like crap" it is most likely that there was an unfortunate combination of crap marking out, sawing and method (;).
I suggest you mark out the tails first and saw them out with bandsaw as close to the line as you feel safe, then neaten them up by paring with sharp chisel. (Use the bandsaw to remove the waste too).
Then use the tails to mark out the sockets/pins.Thees are your reference and the sockets are to be adjusted to fit them -not the other way round. I would not bother to change the angle of the bandsaw from 90 degrees-merely make repeated cuts from the "narrow" side to remove the bulk of waste then saw to the line by handsaw and neaten up with chisel. Once you have established your own method it is actually easier to do them than describe them.
I would persevere with your bandsaw -I think it is easier with less chance of things going wrong.
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