Good day to everyone,
I’m starting woodworking from nothing but I plan on having a modestly equipped shop by next summer. Until I became a member of this great site, I was set on buying a Resaw King from Laguna tools for Christmas. Than I read the message board and became nervous. I am now looking for a comparable band saw from a manufacturer with a more stable reputation. Any suggestions and insight would be greatly appreciated
This is my first post, so I will briefly introduce myself. You might be wondering about the screen name. I’m a Environmental site remediation and rehabilitation technician. So I spend most of my day in the mud, like a hog, excavating contamination. I live in Québec but I work all over the place. Stress remediation is why I want to do the woodworking myself instead of paying to have it done. There’s also more satisfaction and it’s an outlet for my creativity. I have place a bid on a 9.5 acre wooded lot (full of hardwoods but mostly sugar maple) and plan building the house myself ( cabinet, built-ins and all) starting next summer. By the way, English isn’t my first language, so please excuse the writing and choice of words.
This said, I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the knots page and thank everyone for the wisdom you’ve already shared.
Replies
Should be easy, considering where you live, to find a nice used 36" machine. Let someone else spend the big bucks on the new equipment. Purchase used machines when possible.
DJK
Edited 10/18/2006 8:05 pm ET by DJK
Edited 10/18/2006 8:06 pm ET by DJK
Just a second on the used machines I have used a 36" oliver and that is a wonderful saw I have seen simmlar saws sell used for under $1200. The biggest issues are that they often have 3 phase motors and they are very heavy I believe the oliver ways over 2000 pounds. Anyway it is an option. My father has a Laguna 16" band saw and like it.
Troy
I have not been on this community chat room very long either, but welcome.
I personally think (although I do not know what you are talking about with the bad review), based on what I've seen, that the Laguna bandsaw is a good one. A friend has one and loves it.
In my personal experience, a good new tool is better than a good used tool. They both usually take a bit of work to get to where they do their jobs well, but the new one takes less work, usually is safer, and, well, is new.
This is just my opinion, from a guy that has a shop full of many used and a few new tools.
And you do not need to apologize about your English language skills. Some of the All-American guys in this community didn't pay enough attention in school so you shouldn't have a problem doing better than them.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
The subject of Laguna came up about a month ago. Quite a few posters complained about mostly the service rather than the machine itself. I was very interested in the Laguna but because of complaints aired on this forum I went for something else. I'll probably never know if that was a good move.
Do you remember what the problem with the saw was that needed customer service?
I have thought about buying one.
Thanks!
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
"Do you remember what the problem with the saw was that needed customer service?" Don't have any specific info on that question, but in general Laguna gets slammed for being much more interested in selling you a machine than providing customer service after you get it. From what I've read over the years, they lose many points for being arrogant and difficult to deal with after the purchase is made. It's not universal, certainly, but the comments come up often enough to make me think "MiniMax" on those occasions I fantasize about having a decent bandsaw.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks forestgirl. It's too bad they don't have it more together.
Hal
Hi and welcome: I have worked in a furniture, door and cabinet shop for a while that had 2 new laguna bandsaws and I have an old 20 inch powermatic of my own that I've had for 25 yrs. In my opinion the laguna saws were pretty much junk. If you live near Quebec look for a used General. I use my bandsaw more than any other tool in my shop and would not recommend spending a lot of money on your dream bandsaw, rather-- buy a reasonable used saw and get some experience sawing so you can make a wiser decision as to what you really need in a future upgrade. Good luck.
Forest Girl gave you a much better brief that I can. I don't think it was a particular problem. Most any machine can be defective or give problems. I think it is more the customer service and their attitude. Some folks have reportedly had their new machine for months without having had use of it.
To you and forestgirl too,
Thanks. It would be sad to receive a machine that will not work out of the box. I had an apprentice that bought an 8" jointer that was not possible to fix. A company rep. came to see it and gave him his money back. It was a huge hassle as we spent a lot of time trying to shim the ways to make it work.
I bought my latest bandsaw at a local industrial dealer that had several on display, so I had them plug the saws in and run them all. It was very interesting to see how much difference there was in how smoothly some saws ran, and how rough others were.
When I told the sales guy which one I wanted, he said they had them in the back, still in the box and would have a guy bring one up for me. "No," I said, "This is the saw I am buying."
It runs so nicely. Makes it pretty silly to save 50 bucks or so and get any of the others shipped.
Hal
Your point taken Hal, but in my personal experience I cannot afford the quality I aspire to in new tools so I have many old, but very good secondhand tools. A for instance is my Denford three phase 16 inch oil fed stone 120RPM horizontal grinder which cost less than a normal new tool grinder yet does a far superior job.
Also the view of a pro who can set costs against tax and enhanced productivity will of course be different.
Welcome to Knots! Sounds like big plans. No recommendation on the bandsaw.
When you get to building the house, check out Breaktime - thats where the home builders and contractors hang out ( Fine Homebuilding people ). You can get a lot of good help and info from them as well.
I think Frenchy is still building his house and might have some good insights on the tools needed that can be used for fine woodwork as well as building a house
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Was Captain Jack played by Kurt Russell?
Johnnie Depp.
Pirates of the Caribean
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Edited 10/19/2006 12:33 pm ET by Ricks503
Oh. Missed that one. I wish I could tell you what movie I was thinking about with Kurt Russell. I am pretty sure he was Cap'n Jack, though.
"Overboard". It was pretty funny.
Thanks! I have probably seen it 3 or 4 times, but mostly in bits and pieces as my daughters watched it over and over. I think there is nothing better than sitting and watching a dumb/funny movie with your kids on a rainy winter day.
I thought it was as Kurt Russell as it gets, which is good!
If you hadn't helped me on this it would have bugged me all day.
Hal
Soory to ruin your day Hal, but it wasn't 'Overboard". It was a movie in which Martin Short hired Cap'n Jack to sail his boat back to the states, I enjoyed it also, just can't think of the name.
Wolfman
Wolfman, you are right. Overboard must have been the one with Goldie Hawn where Kurt was a carpenter.
Sorry, I never was much of a movie guy. I didn't even know who Humphrey Bogart was until I was out of college, and know very few actors now. Not watching TV really helps!
Hal
No, that one was "Captian Ron" with Martin Short.
"Overbboard" was with Goldie Hawn.
I knew it wasn't Overboard. Was the name of the movie Hal is thinking about called "Captain Ron"?
sorry but...
it was Captain Ron
The name of the movie was Captain Ron, Kurt Russel played the title charachter who was hired to sail Martin Short's inhereted sail boat to Miami with his family.
In overboard Kurt Russel was a carpenter who did some work for goldie hawn on her boat...
It can't be a good thing that i know this....
Kurt Russell played Col. Jack O'Neil in Stargate
To all, thanks for the swift reponse to my post.
Buying used seems the best way to go but I'm not sure I could tell the difference between a lemon and a sweet deal. I'll have to read up. Somewhere here, someone wrote something like "perhaps it is not yet time to buy a tablesaw..." or in this case a bandsaw. Got me thinking. What I'll probably do is take the enveloppe that was reserved for the resaw king, and equipe myself with basic quality handtools. I'll need them too anyway.
So, if you had to build a kithchen full of mortise and tenon faceframes, which hand plane would you instintively reach for to get that perfect fit?
Also, I will definetly check out "break time".
Thanks again.
The issue was poor to no customer service. However, there is a company with a comparable product line to Laguna that prides itself on outstanding customer service. That would be MiniMax. Speaking from personal experience their bandsaws are of outstanding quality with plenty of power for any big jobs that you might want to throw at it. You should at least check them out if you can. Dane (or whoever) can refer you to someone who lives near you so that you can see one firsthand.
Rehabhog,
Look carefully at what you are attempting to do.. If you want a cheap shell and fine cabinets then it sounds like most have given you good advice..If you want a fine house first then you might rethink your priorities..
Making cabinets is tough, time demanding taskmaster that does not tolerate mistakes.. building a fine home is much more forgiving and has a far better return on your time..
You can buy a decent set of cabinets for a moderate sized house for around $10,000. Your labor spent on building that fine home can yield you $100,000 or more in equity.
You can still do fine woodworking only your time will be spent customizing trim and details rather than making 20 identical doors for the fronts of cabinets..
Wood is always going to command more attention then sheetrock no matter what color you paint it.. Do some fine wainscoating, make some raised panel stairs. Build in a entertainment center under the stairs. Boxes with doors no matter how carefully crafted will never return as much equity as a home that appears to be "custom"
Hi Frenchy,
I understand that the first phase of my project might be misleading it that way. I'm not sure that the cabinets that I will be building for it this winter will qualify as finewoodworking, since this is my first try, but what I need are cabinet that are more fonctional than artistic. Phase one of the project is a "in between" living quarter's that will change vocation as soon as phase two is completed.
Now in phase two, I'm talking the same language you are. Structural masonry, Post and beams, panel walls, custom inlay of stone and wood in the floor design, tall walls with lots of moldings and a dedicated library room. Something a victorian era tourist would like. It's also a enviromentally friendly house. Aside from all the green plumbing and isulation, passive solar energy is used in the form of clay walls and floors where most beneficial. It has taken quite some time to match the two styles. Skylights and ballustrades bring in natural light all the ways to the basement. It's an original for sure. My pride and joy.
Since I will be living in phase one, this gives me the time to build a nice shell to go with the nice cabinets and built-ins.
My grand father always loved owning a house because for him it ment always having something to do and details to take care of. I'm like that too.
Now, what's wainscoating?
Thank you and good evening
Rehabhog.
Go with a used saw, you get a lot of cast iron and spend a lot less money. Even a 20 year old Delta 14" that is tuned up is a better buy than a new one. Call these folks for a catalog.
Iturra Design
4636 Fulton RD
Jacksonville, FL 32225-1332
1.888.722.7078 voice
1.904.642.2802 fax
Rehabhog,
I'm sorry I missed your post earlier. I'm doing what you are planning on doing and might be able to help you if you'd like..
I can offer suggestions and my experiance.
Hi Frenchy,
I always appreciate people who are willing to share their experience and I try do the same. I'm glad to hear that you are doing what I'm planning to do. Most people tell me that it is way to complicated for me.
This said, how are you enjoying the experience so far? Piece of cake, ok, overwhelmed? Anything you wished you had farmed out instead of doing it yourself?
A bit more info on my project might help better relate to it.
It's a two phase project. A very small house for two at first in which I have to build the kitchen cabinets, bathroom cabinets, built-in boot and diner table, built-in library and entertainment center,custom furniture (because of the small space) hardwood floors, stairs and ramp. The foundation, pre-assemble walls, roof and most of the plumbing /electrical are contracted. I think of it has training wheels for the second phase. The second phase is a full out, environmentally friendly, do it yourself, 6 bedroom house. The woodworking needs will be the same as with the first phase but on a larger and refined scale. This is the house I want to live the rest of my life in. The project sounds nuts, I know, but if I were to put it in a detailed context it would the logical thing to do.
This project is also why I want to buy the best tools I can afford; I'll get a lot of use out of them. Although I live on a budget, right now the money's good, so I'm in the market to buy the big or premium stuff. What tools would you suggest or wish you had bought for your project?
Thank you for taking the time to offer your suggestion and experience. Feel free to answer or not.
Rehabhog
I don't see anyone answering your question about which tools to buy, just the same new vs used and power vs hand arguments for which the correct answer is often applicable only to that individual.So, you want to build a house? You'll need:1. A GOOD table saw with a GOOD fence. Don't skimp here as it will be central to much of what you do, i.e, ripping lumber & sheet goods.2. A miter saw. I'd recommend a 12" sliding compound miter saw (SCMS) which will handle cross cuts (up to 12 in obviously) and all of your mouldings & crownwork.3. If you're going to make your mouldings and crownwork you'll need a shaper. If not you'll need a router table. The good news is that you can add a router table to your table saw.3. A drill press. You'll be amazed at how many uses there are for a good DP.You can buy your hardwoods prefinished (surfaced 4 sides = s4s and dimensioned to your specs) but you'll pay a premium for these services on top of already expensive wood. If you want to do this yourself, you'll need:3. A bandsaw with decent resaw capacity (12 in would be good).4. A jointer for face and edge truing. 5. A planer to get the correct thickness.And you'll need the standard arsenal of hand power tools: circular saw, drill, routers, sanders, pneumatic nailers, compressor, etc.You probably already have a boat load of regular mechanics tools and you'll need them, wrenches, screwdrivers, sockets & drivers, measuring tools.Do you have power or will you need a generator? Got light to work by?I'm cetain there are several more tools that I've forgotten to add. All in all, you need $10-20K worth of powertools. Yes, you can save a bundle buying used equipment just be sure you know what you're looking for in each case (i.e., what are the common wear points, etc).With powertools, I would guess the number 1 mistake is buying undersized tools under the guise of saving a few bucks. Often these mistakes are corrected by selling the undersized tool at a loss and the additional expense of buying the right tool. Do it right the first time. Yes, tools are expensive but buying the right tool the first time will save you money in the long run. The right tools can last a lifetime and be passed down to your children.Good luck. I admire your ambition.Edited 10/22/2006 10:39 am ET by wyo
Edited 10/22/2006 10:45 am ET by wyo
Rehabhog,
Ok here's the answers. first it's a really tough task.. I'm 5 years into a 10 year project and slightly ahead of where I expected to be.. I work full time and work on the house nights and weekends.
I originally thought that I could do it all.. I found out I needed outside help in part because of my age (I'm 58) my condition (I've had mostly senditary jobs all of my life and carry at least 80 pounds more on me than I should) and time crunch.
I'm building a timberframe (actaully a double timberframe) and want it to be not just a home but a efficent and eviormentally justified building.. (that means it neds to last longer than it took the trees to grow)
I would change some things, mainly I would use stone on the outside completely rather than outside timberframes, I'd build with ICF's rather than SIP's and the placement of some rooms would be differant (but the city dictated those so I had no choice)
Circumstances forced me to work on interior stuff rather than the outside stuff and due to those same circumstances I had to have more help than I really would have needed otherwise.. It was all stuff that given time I could have done myself but time was critical..
I still love it, although this was supposed to be a family project. I promised to work 40 hours a week on it and asked my daughters and wife to each give me 10 hours a week.. At best I get one from maybe one.. but it takes at least three hours of arguement and dealing with hurt feelings for every hour I actually get so it's rare when they contribute even that hour..
I'd hoped that I could call on friends and family for those times when more than one person was needed.. It doesn't happen that way.. They're busy or don't show up so you need to have someone that you pay to show up when you need them.. Money is understood, favors are never paid back..
Tools, some tools you need to spend the most to get the best tools. some tools good is good enough and some cases cheap does just fine..
Things like bandsaws, planners, jointers, tablesaws etc. I bought as cheap as I could find (Grizzly) I don't regret it for a second. When I'm finished with them I'll sell them and since I bought on the low side I will recover more of my original price than if I bought on the high side
Plus the basic nature of the low end equipment means it's simple to fix should that ever be needed.. (it hasn't)
Hand tools like saws, nail guns etc. It seems that you need to buy the best stuff, the cheaper stuff just does a poor job and isn't reliable.. Specialty tools that I needed for timberframing I bought all Mikita, they are far from the best but the price differance is monumental between Mikita and the high end stuff. Only rarely have I rented stuff. The rent paid is too high in relation to the cost of the tools in most cases..
I'd hate to estimate the total I've spent on tools. Probably $50,000.00 of which I should recover over $25,000.00 when I sell and maybe a little more if inflation keeps raising the cost of things..
This is a big house.. total area over 5000 sq.ft. and doing a double timberframe really puts demands on me. I'm glad I used sawmill wood.. I paid less for 50,000 bd.ft. of fine hardwoods like black walnut, white oak, cherry, hard maple etc.. than I could buy sheetrock for.. My average cost was under $.50 cents a bd.ft. and if I'd been more carefull I could have gotten under 35 cents a bd.ft.
Time!
I mentally budget X # hours to do a task and often find out that I am wrong by a factor of 500% projects seldom take less time. So I wind up working longer and having outside help for some stuff. For an example I though I could take a day to lay the floor of one room with black walnut. It took me and another guy a month and that was a small 16x16 room..
Okay, so I'm trying to figure out the math on this. I'm not an accountant though, so I could be all wrong about this.
It takes you 500% longer than you figure. So if you originally thought it would take 10 years, how long is the project really going to take? Fifty years?
But based on how long it took to do that floor that should have taken a day but actually took two of you a month, I think your 500% estimate is way off. Isn't 500% of 1 day only 5 days? I think you may really be up there in the 3,000% off range... No, since two of you did it, isn't it 6,000%?
How old did you say you are? This job may take you 600 years, if you really work at it, or you could cut it down to 300 if your buddy helps!
Hal
Hal J
Please read carefully.. I said some projects took longer, the example I gave was probably the worst case.. As I said going in I projected it to take ten years and I'm actually ahead of schedule. Some projects are faster and easier than I expect.
For example I'd planned spending a month of my spare time stripping the piano. It took less than 8 hours. and at the end of that eight hours I was able to lift it from my great room onto the bridge in less than 15 minutes.. something I'd planned on taking at least a full day with four people it took 15 minutes with two.. nobody raised a sweat or strained a muscle. (sometimes I'm so brillant I scare myself)
I'm 58 to repeat what I clearly said earlier..
Frenchy,
Oh, I know. I was just giving you a hard time, and all in fun. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings. It just struck me as funny at the time.
I'm a professional woodworker and I often underestimate how long things will take, so I understand completely. Many of the jobs I do are like science experiments.
Years ago when I started a job building a staircase on site, in a new home, the builder asked me how long I thought it would take. I told him about 3 weeks. Two weeks later he asked again saying he needed to schedule the painters. I told him about 3 weeks. It happens!
I think that many of us think we are better than we really are. Isn't that better than the opposite?
Hal
Sorry Hal J
I just finished a letter to the city council and in a foul mood.. Grumble grumble grumble....
I bragged that I was ahead of schedule but I know the rule.. the last 10% always takes 90% of the time..
I think you need to quit stressing about how long this project may take. Just enjoy the process!
The whole thing sounds like fun, actually. If I could do it, I would do the same.
Hal
Hal J
Now you've hit the nail on the head!
You see I don't know how to do what I'm doing.. The only time I took wood shop I flunked.. because of that I never built anything from wood. I didn't own any wood working tools untill I started this project. (I honestly reroofed my old house using a ballpean hammer).
I designed the house without the benefit of any classes or instruction and learned how to timberframe buy buying some tools and making stuff fit..
I am math challenged.. I wouldn't know how to figure out an angle to save my soul, but I can hold something in place and figure out where it needs to go. I'm real big on story sticks and trial and error.
My rafters I made by setting them on the driveway spreading the legs far enough apart and seeing where the tips crossed. Later I found out that the West Wing is at a 27/12 pitch and the great room is at 17/12 pitch. It looks OK so that's what I left it at..
As long as gravity still works I can plumb bob my way out of any fix I make for myself.. You should have seen me build my tower.. I started out on the second floor and then it went up and back down the 17/12 pitch of the great room, then up the 12/12 pitch of the domer and back around . Half of the tower is up the roof and half is sorta on the flat.. In the end when I finished the top was less than a quarter of an inch from perfect... so I squeezed the two planks together and nailed 'em. I didn't worry because I had a come-along, clamps, and determination..
When stuff like that happens I want to call up my old wood shop teacher and go,,, PHHHHHLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!
Frenchy,
I probably shouldn't tell you this, but I learned to do most things on my own too. Back in the day we didn't have all of the instruction books that are available now.
But I did work with some really smart people, one being a builder I apprenticed for early on that can build anything. He was a high school dropout, and is very successful. He would never let us even think of using nail guns, and no one had a sliding compound miter saw. We hand planed things to fit, and they had to fit perfectly.
And I'm not really that old! Just lucky. It helps when you start woodworking at age 3.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
HalJ
I started wood working at age 53 ;-)
I sell equipment to builders (forklifts telehandlers) and I constantly noticed errors and sloppyness in the work of even the builders with the best reputation.. The more I read the more I wondered why things were done the way the were instead of better and more efficently. The final nail on the coffin was when I read that the average age of a home that is totally remodeled was 56 years.. By total remodeled they meant where at least 80% of the home went into the dumpster.
In Europe it's over 200 years and in much of Asia it's well over 120.. That indicated to me that maybe we weren't building as well as we could
I was on one site and saw in the dumpster a 22 foot long 2x12 with just a few nails in it and a little damage on one end. I looked at the end of it and tried to count the growth rings.. They were so close together that it was hard to spot them.. My best guesstimate was that board alone took nearly 200 years to grow.. I can envision some 2000 year old douglas fir giving up it's life to last 56 years in use and wanted to cry. Call me a tree hugger if you want but I felt we owed ourselves more than that.
I decided that the real differance was building well enough or over building.. One thing Older homes that last have in common is being over built. Thus they are still sound long after the "style" goes out of favor .. Because that they have a real chance of becoming popular again and carefully remodeled rather than cartered into a dumpster and hauled off.
With that in mind I decided that I owed myself the proof of my thoughts. Was I just full of BS or was there really something to my concepts?
What is it they say fools rush in while wise men fear to tread? I checked around and timberframers wanted Millions to do what I envisioned. I don't have millions. but I am ambitious and willing to work hard. I looked at buying what I wanted and it was still massively over any sort of budget I could envision. Thus I began to spend time in sawmills.. when I saw white oak timbers made into railroad ties I asked what something like that would cost. The low price shocked me and a kernal of an idea formed.. I think at the time they were getting something like $5.50 for a 8"x9"x9 1/2 ' railroad tie before it went in to be treated.
And standing in a great big pile was a whole stack of Black walnut timbers going off to the pallet makers. The pallet makers only paid 17 cents a bd.ft. for any hardwood.
The reason these were going off so cheap is at the time buyers only wanted blonde woods like maple and birch. They couldn't give away black walnut or cherry..
Well if everybody would quit buying any lumber for the next 5 years, the price would be reasonable again. I remember when I was in high school (barely) and wanted to do a project out of black walnut. But it cost 49 cents a foot so I used hard maple instead at only 20 cents.
Our consumption with natural resources is way out of control. I saw on the news last night that by the year 2050 we will need 2 earths to provide for our needs based on what we are using today.
I think that a lot of remodeling is done because of bad design rather than poor workmanship. People need larger kitchens or better baths. Many old homes have small bedrooms and closets.
In the remodeling work that I have been involved with, we don't throw away much, and recycle anything that can be used again. There are companies here that will come and dismantle a home rather than throwing it away, and almost all of it is reused or recycled.
I should say though, that a lot of remodeling because of bad workmanship, at least what I have seen, is because someone has done a poor quality remodel in the past. With all of the homeowners out there doing it themselves now, it can only get worse.
It is like furniture makers learning from Norm Abrams and thinking they are building antique reproductions.
Hal
Hal J
I wish I could share your pessimism about do-it-yourselfers vs pros. but I see poor workmanship every day when I visit with the "pros"
Remember often low price is King and the guy actually doing the work maybe some kid who is sorta doing what the boss showed him to do.
That or he was humping lumber one week and the next week when his buddy needed someone became the lead carpeter.
IN over 15 years of selling to the framing industry I have never heard anybody say they did average work.. I have never heard anybody claim they did shoddy work.
Somehow they are all above average or the absolute best.
Just once I'd like to see a business card say we do cheap work but get it past inspection.. :-)
I have often told my clients "I may be slow, but I'm expensive."
Hal J
wood is too cheap!
I buy hardwood for so little that it's embaressing.. It's not just me! Heck, I pay what the pallet mills pay for wood and if you see the quality of wood that is sent to a pallet mill it will make you angery..
The only way the small to midsized sawmill can stay ahead is to constantly move wood.. They can't afford for it to stand around and wait for a customer.. If their buyers for a particular species can't buy it it goes to the pallet mills..
My sawmill used to sell Hackberry to the dutch who love it.. However that market has dried up and the logs that were cut for that market need to go someplace.. That place winds up being pallet mills. The same that happened to black walnut or cherry at one time..
It takes 80 to 100 years to grow a decent sized log and if they can't find a buyer in three months it becomes a pallet ..
Real crime..
"By total remodeled they meant where at least 80% of the home went into the dumpster." "That indicated to me that maybe we weren't building as well as we could."
First, let me say I'm not at all disagreeing with your main point. However, there are other factors at work here. A huge one is the extreme appreciation of home values in the US, and our overwhelming penchant for using home equity loans to keep up with the current fad, whatever that may be.
We just bought a 2-year-old dishwasher from a couple remodelikng their home and replacing the appliances with stainless steel versions. Their remodel started out simply to add a bedroom for the kids. When we were there, the whole darned house was in a state of remodel! This is happening all around the Seattle area, and I suspect most other metro areas as well. The entire country is living off of home equity, which is why the economics gurus get so nervous when the real estate market cools off.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl,
It's far more sinister than that.. Home values have rapidly appreciated that is absolutely true, however what is behind all that rapid appreciation?
Are you old enough to remember the Vietnam war? If so you will remember that war too was "off the books" just like the currant wars are.. the result of that war was really high inflation.. 18% or more.. per year..
Just incase you think I'm attacking one political party or the other, remember it was both Johnson's war and Nixon's war..
If you go back further you will remember Korea, Inflation following that war drove home prices up as well.
This country hasn't ever raised taxes enough to pay for it's wars.. to cover that deficet they simply inflate things..
To be ahead of the game buy homes at the start of wars and sell once the worst of the inflation is over..
"Are you old enough to remember the Vietnam war?" Oh, jeez, you bet I am. Came of age in the day of the draft lottery. Remember our male friends sitting around the TV watching to see if they'd been "picked."
Fortunately I, personally, don't "go back" as far as the Korean war, though my much older brother was in the Navy at the time.
Inflation doesn't seem to be toooo bad right now, other than the gas prices, which are so manipulated it's disgusting. That certainly could change though!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
forestgirl.
Baseline things to 2000 and you will see a steady price increase reflecting inflation.. housing is just one.
The only thing remaining constant has been wages while the rest of costs have risen dramatically..
Yes, prices have risen, and it sucks. But while the inflation rate is too high, I (and you) have seen so much worse! Now, the wage thing is really bad, as you say. "The only thing remaining constant has been wages while the rest of costs have risen dramatically." In no small part, we can thank the CEO's who are making, almost 300 times what the average worker makes Almost double the gap that existed in 2002. Less than 10 years ago, CEO's "only" made 89x the average worker's pay.
Just one of the things wrong with the whole idea of a "trickle-down" economy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
ForestGirl,
Only in America are CEO's wages so much higher than workers.. the rest of the world it's rare for a CEO to earn more than 20 times what factory workers earn. many parts of the world it's like five or seven times at best..
Who says there isn't class warfare, well there really isn't lately , it's over the wealthy have won..
My only solace is that when the French finally wised up to the abuses the upperclass had been doing to them, they cut off most of their heads, thus the greater the abuse the worse the retaliation..
Forestgirl,
Wow, I think there has been quite a bit of price inflation all around. Have you bought any hardwood lately?
Hal
For me, the severity of inflation is relative to what we went through in the mid-1970's and then again in the early 1980's (thank you, President Reagan). I'm not saying we don't have any inflation, and the last year it's starting to get a little nerve-wracking, but I think it's still less than 5% -- not good but not horrendous. It'd be better to see it less than 2%, for sure.
Judging inflation by the price of any one commodity is not valid, by the way. But I'm sure you know that.
Now, if we could just stop our president from goin' off and starting multi-billion- dollar wars where we ought not be!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Part of the answer would depend of how much woodworking you will do after this. If you will continue on, I would get somewhat higher quality. For what it is worth my vote is
Cabinet saw - Since this will be an after hours project, I would suggest a sawstop - High quality and even more is the safety features which if you are tired could be critical.
Miter saw - 12" slider
Jointer - 8"
Planer - 20"
Bandsaw - 16" - 18" with a riser kit so you have 12" resaw capability
Drill Press
1/2" corded drill
18V cordless drill with at leat 2 batteries
Compressor with some nail guns
Tile saw - if you will be doing any tile work
Circular saw - can use it for breaking down sheet goods
Reciprocating saw - may not need it often, so buy cheap
Oscilating spindle sander and Drum sander might be nice but not critical.
Belt sander and ROS
Think dust collection - cyclone and air filtration combined so you will be around to enjoy the house. A Shop vac for general cleanup duty
Routers - 3HP for table use (or a shaper), 2 1/2hp kit for general use and a trim router
Spend some time up front building some jigs. - Router table, table saw sled, miter sled, infeed and outfeed support tables (with locking wheels - can be storage caninets that double as infeed and outfeed tables) tilting table for the drill press, drill press table, resaw fence for the bandsaw, zero clearance inserts for table saw ( a couple dozen ) zero clearance fences for the router table, Dado jig for the router. For table saw jigs, I recommend Jim Tolpins TableSaw Magic.
Consider making any mobile cabinets (with locking wheels) the same height as the TS - adding them in some places can increase infeed, outfeed and side support. And being the same height, they can be ganged together as work surfaces in whatever configuration you need.
I will not go into hand tools, we could be here till xmas and get so many more opinions that you would be bogged down.
If you do not have a workshop on site, you will need to build one. Also some place to store your lumber.
Depending one where you live, If you have access to trees, you might consider a portable mill where you can mill your own lumber that you would then be able to start using 1-4 years down the line. If that is too big an investment, you can cut/seal and season the logs till you have enough then contact and hire someone in the area who has one, to come out and cut it for you. Stack and dry it and use it in 1-3 years.
" There'll be no living with her now" - Captain Jack Sparrow
Thanks for the reply,
I'm taking very careful note of your comment about the safety features of the machinery this being an after hour project. I had never thought of it that way. Thank you very much.
Rehabhog
Thank you for the detailed response,
Your 5000 sq.ft. project is quite an undertaking, especially with little help. From what I imagine it's going to be one beautiful house.
Your advice has driven home the fact that this project might take longer than expected. I usually work 10-15 hour days ( except when mother nature interfers) for nine month's of the year. I had planed on keeping that pace through the other three months while building my home. I just don't know how many years on end I can keep that up if it's going to be a ten year project. But I'm glad you made me realize it now rather than find out later. I'll have to set up a planning schedule.
Also, 50k of tools seems like a lot. I had figured on getting by with 15k. I'll buy as plan and then buy on a "as needed basis".
Still, I have a lot of things to decide and figure out before I start mine but now I have a more focused view of what lies ahead and some advice to go with it.
If you want to resaw the machines at Laguna are wonderful choices. I own two, the LT18 and the Resaw you looked at. As I knew prior to purchase and then later founf to be true...these saws are precise and accurate to a fault. Don't be discouraged by what others write. Laguna, simply put, is no different than other companies. They will fix it if you can show them it's their fault. And know this, little will need fixing if you buy from them. I've used numerrous bandsaws for nearly 30 years now...these are the best overall.
My 7 year old LT-18 hasn't missed a beat and cuts great. I have 3 Laguna machines and have not had a problem dealing with Laguna either before or after the sale (hence machines 2 and 3). Be wary of those who criticize a particular distributor that have no actual first hand experience with them as it is nothing more than hearsay.
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