Hi everyone. I’ve very much enjoyed reading these forums and sucking up as much information as possible. I’ve read about a million posts concerning bandsaw purchases and still remain somewhat confused, particularly given some of the new offerings out there.
I currently own a Jet 12″ open stand bandsaw, which has been nice for small projects but clearly can’t cut it for resaw work. I also have a somewhat underpowered hybrid tablesaw (FYI) that has trouble cutting 2″ thick hardwood. I am interested in replacing the JET with a larger steel frame bandsaw (16-18″ size) for the purpose of resawing hardwood (perhaps up to 6″ width or 8″ max) and for ripping thicker stock (such as 8/4 hard maple; and giving my poor tablesaw a break).
I work in a garage shop that is currently only wired for 115 V although I would consider upgrading the electrical to 220V if there would be a big bang for the buck on that. I haven’t been tripping breakers with the current setup but…maybe a bigger bandsaw would do that.
I’ve narrowed my decision down to the Grizzly G0513X or G0514X, the Jet JWBS-16 or 18, the RIKON 14″ deluxe or 18″, or the new 16 or 18″ models from Steel City. I briefly considered the 14″ saw from Powermatic but heard too many horror stories about the riser block installation nightmare to consider it further. Also, I’m not anxious to have to upgrade in the future to a larger saw (nor is my wife). All the saws in the 16 or 17″ range seem to be able to be wired for either 115 or 220 V although the larger saws seem to be only 220V. I can’t justify a jump up to the Laguna or MiniMax saws (sniff) even though everyone seems to think they “walk on water. “
Questions:
(1) If I buy one of the saws that can accomodate either voltage is there really a big difference in upgrading the whole shop to 220V since that will certainly be a big expense?
(2) Anyone with strong opinions for or against these saws when compared against their competition noted above? The Grizzly’s seem to be the clear winners in value, have the largest motors, etc. The JET saws seem to be “underpowered” from other posters opinions and have difficult to change blade mechanisms although the 18″ saw seems to be better appointed than the 16″. Of course, I can buy the JET locally which is nice. The Steel City product is somewhat unknown to me although several posters liked it. People also seem to like the RIKON saws although the 18″ would required me to upgrade my electric service now rather than consider buying the saw and upgrading its wiring and my electric at a later date. Perhaps the 14″ would be too small to stave off upgrades later?
(3) How much does “size matter” in saws of this size range? i.e. Does the fact that the Grizzly 19″ G0514X is cheaper than the Steel City 16″ saw make this a de facto decision for those in the know?
I would greatly ppreciate any input. Sorry if this type of thread has run too many times in the past.
Rick
Replies
Hi Rick ,
I'll take question # 1 , sounds like your shop is currently running without 230 / 220 , so imo perhaps several receptacles maybe even just one circuit . As long as your service box can handle the added circuit and you are advised on the way to do it the actual cost of parts won't run high . Now if your lucky like me you'll have an old Sylvania service box and the new breakers cost like $ 30 each , instead of $ 6.50 or so .
So you really do not need to re wire your entire shop and it could open up new possibilities for new machines and such .While I don't use any extension cords on machines in the shop , a few of the machines have longish cords on them to reach the plug in .
regards dusty
Hey Astro.....................
How many times do you really want to upgrade ?? Stop the Wining!
Plan the upgrade in phases; if $$$$ is the big factor. Get the place wired for your dream machine this year. Next year.... go for the gusto and get the dream machine. Meanwhile keep in touch with Laguana and Minimax; because they often have deals on demo models etc....especially after a show!!! They don't really want to crate it up again.
"stop the WINING"......Huh, I don't remember Astro asking about merlot or cabernet.O, wait, you mean whining. Jeez, doesn't anybody know how to spell any more?
Your the only one who actually got my subliminal message ! "Salute !"
I, too, was in your shoes about 3 months ago. I labored over the purchase for many weeks and finally narrowed my choice to the 19” Grizzly Extreme, the 18” Rikon Deluxe, and 18” Steel City. The Grizzly appeared to be the best value but the trunnion supports are stamped steel, unlike the cast iron supports on the Rikon and Steel City models. For a table as big as that on the Grizzly, stamped steel table supports seem like a design flaw to me. I looked at the Rikon and Steel City saws side-by-side at Woodcraft. At the time, the Rikon was on sale for $1000.00 and if I ordered online, Woodcraft would deliver it to my home for only $30.00. I don’t own a truck, nor do I have friends with a truck, so the Rikon was a full $250.00 less than the Steel City model when you account for shipping. I bought the Rikon. Had the prices and delivery charges been equal I would have purchased the Steel City model.The next issue was unpacking it and getting it on a mobile base. I bought a 700lb capacity HTC base but it was too flimsy to support the saw. Part of the problem was that the base on the saw was not flush- a full 1/4” higher in one corner. I returned the HTC base and purchased a Shop Fox base rated for 1300#. I predrilled bolt holes into the corner bottoms of the base, installed a hoist in my ceiling and lifted the saw straight up, lowering it gently onto the 3” upside-down bolts sticking through the base. I also added a wooden shim for the one corner. While I’m sure the shim won’t last forever, the saw is about as stable as it can be on a mobile base. I still have yet to start the saw though because I have to add a 220V circuit. My garage was only pre-wired with 14-2 wire and 15 amp outlets so I needed to upgrade anyway. I’m adding two 20 amp 120V circuits and one 20 amp 220V circuit. I’m using metal conduit and exposed receptacles because my garage walls are finished. Just the wiring supplies cost about $200.00 at a home center but it had to be done even had I not purchased a 220V machine.Hopefully I’ll get a chance to actually turn the saw on by the end of this month. - Lyptus
Lyptus wrote:
"The Grizzly appeared to be the best value but the trunnion supports are stamped steel, unlike the cast iron supports on the Rikon and Steel City models. For a table as big as that on the Grizzly, stamped steel table supports seem like a design flaw to me."
Actually, the Steel City uses cast aluminum trunnions, and that is a flaw in my book. I have the 19" Shop Fox (Grizzly clone) and the steel trunnions are more than adequate. I've resawn short logs at the full 12" capacity and the table doesn't move hardly at all. I do think wider spacing would be a benefit, but only marginally so.
As for the Al trunnions on the SC (and the Delta 18"), while they are widely spaced they don't adjust as easily IMHO (I really like the rack and pinnion design of the Grizz, SF, and Rikon). But the major shortcoming is that they gouge easily which in turn makes moving the table difficult and results in the table not clamping down level. If you are careful it may never happen, but I've seen it on a Delta I looked at.
In the end these ~$1000 saws are all very similar and I suggest putting your hands on them and seeing which features sway you to one brand or the other.
Jake
"Hopefully I’ll get a chance to actually turn the saw on by the end of this month."
Lyptus, are you able to give an update on your Rikon 18"?
Monte
Not yet. Hopefully I'll be able to tell you how it works next week. I'm still stringing the wires for the new 220V circuit.
For BS, I have used an old Delta 14" (ca 1955), currently own a new SC 18". The latter I have had for only 2 months, but I like it a great deal so far. Sarge has written a number of threads on this that are easy to pull up from search. Iturra did a Delta vs Jet comparison and favored the Delta, but he prefers the old Delta iron (as do I). Rikon has been well reviewed and has its supporters, but some have noticed that their saws have arrived unfinished, raising QC issues. Not sure how customer support has handled this- if they have been helpful, that would be a point in favor of Rikon- others may have first hand experience.
In the past 18-24 months, it seems that Grizzly has improved its BS product, and a number of people have bought it and seem satisfied, particularly at the bang for the buck. In the end, for me, actually being able to go over the SC at Woodcraft and getting a 5 year guarantee were the deciding factors. Not sure what the guarantee is for the other saws.
As for rewiring, here ther is little debate: do it. If you do not have adequate 230V capacity in your shop now, you will constantly be facing the same issue, and eventually have to do it and then rewire many of your machines for it. Do it now, even if it means buying a less expensive saw.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I recently purchased the G0513X from Grizzly. I can't say enough good things about it. I think that you get a lot of saw for your dollar with Grizzly. The only thing I had to do once I had the beast uncrated was to bolt on the table and fence guides, clean the table and adjust the bearing guides. The saw tracks perfectly to the fence/miter slot. Even after switching from the included (1/2") blade to a 3/4" wood slicer it tracked perfect. The wheel angle is easy to tweek if needed, so you'll never need to componsate with your fences etc. I did the 220 rewire myself, so cost was minimal - I already had an available breaker in the panel and plenty of wire so I just needed to buy an outlet and the plug (the saw comes without a plug) which was less than $10. So far the heaviest use for the saw has been to rough cut logs from my property into lumber (they don't look very rough!). I run 5' logs through the saw on a sled, and I've done up to 12" diameter. I've have not yet tried to resaw any thin veneer. The saw is extremely quiet. Dust collection is very effective with my shop vac. The bearings are quite easy to adjust. The only feature I would like is a brake...I fear my impatience to move things around on the table with the blade still idleing will get me in trouble one day. Maybe I can retrofit something. Go for the Grizzly. This is a great saw.
Rick,
I was in your situation a month ago. We needed to upgrade a band saw and I looked at what's on the market. I also felt the Grizzly looked like the best value. We also have a Laguna we bought a few years ago so I do have some comparison between steel-bodied band saws.
The Grizzly 513X is definitely more saw than we bought a few years ago in the Laguna but Laguna has also made improvements in their saws since. The Laguna was considerably more expensive.
Space is an issue for us and Grizzly didn't have the 19" saws on display as they're new. I would have bought the 17" anyway. The table size on the Grizzly is larger than the Rikon but they appear to have the same fence. In fact, I suspect Rikon and Grizzly are made by the same maker. The Rikon has some nice looking cast spoked wheels and the Grizzly wheels aren't spoked. While the Rikon wheels look nice, I prefer the mass of the Grizzly wheels.
I spent the last couple days sawing 4" to 6" stock on the Grizzly and it performed well. Like tuolumne, I wish the saw had a brake. I haven't noticed anything about the saw that makes me unhappy but I don't care for aluminum rails the fence rides on. I didn't like the geared adjustment of the table tilt in the Grizzly show room but it's winning me over in the shop. I suspect the greater mass of the 19" wheels may be an advantage when pushing the limits of the saws but the practical capacity of the saws is the same for our use.
Our saw is running on 220 and past experience tells me the main difference you'll find between 110 and 220 volt power is the heavy power draw of the 110 on start-up. After a year or two with the Grizzly 513X I'll be able to give a more critical review but, for now, I think I made the right choice for our situation.
I went from a Jet 12 like yours to a Delta 14 with riser. I shopped Grizzly first. Though you seem to have written off the Delta, it is the design that everyone else copies -- a classic if there ever was one. This bandsaw is my favorite power tool. It has been no trouble to change blades even. It is smooth in operation. It has a larger table than most. It may be made in Asia now, but I can't see that it made any difference in the unit I have. My 2 cents worth.
Cadiddlehopper
And now a word about the Power Matic. THe PM riser issue is only a nightmare if you dont know about it. SInce you do know about it, just cut the pins off of the TOP of the riser with a hacksaw, and align the saw giving a little extra consideration to the "floating " top, until it is buttoned down. Mine aligned as perfect as I could have expected. It was a PIA to adjust the table extension, but doing is knowing.
Everything about the saw is good to great, and almost everything about the saw could be made a little better- such is modern life. I posted a rather long technical detail on amazon.com in the thread on the very bottom of amazon's PM BS page. The saw meet my expectations for the $850 + tax + riser (Kuntz Carpentry in Ill).
All the Best
KB
Oh...and the PM BS is 110V- no power problems whatsoever even re-sawing 11.5" green Walnut logs My 110V table saw is another matter....
KB
I recently bought a 16" Laguna Bandsaw and it has been AWESOME.
They cost a bit more, but they really know how to build a bandsaw.
I don't know how much this will help but I purchased a Jet 18" a couple of years ago. I run the saw from 115V with no problem with tripping breakers. The lower guides are a bit of a pain to adjust although once I did it a couple of times it became quicker. I understand the New 18" version has modified the adjustment so that might make a difference. The blade that shipped with the saw was worthless and I purchased a wood slicer from Highland Hardware which helped a lot. I recently switched to a smaller Lenox and I like it much more then the wood slicer.
Is it underpowered? Well I've resawn a lot of hardwood on Delta 14". The Delta had less horsepower may not have been as quick but properly set up with a good blade it worked. The Jet I have has a 1 1/2 hp and I certainly wouldn't consider it for a dedicated resaw machine but it has worked fine for me and I understand the newer ones are 1 3/4 hp though I can't see making much difference.
I considered buying a 14" Delta but I wanted a larger table and when I purchased the Jet with rebates/sales etc it was about $250.00 more then a new Delta 14" with riser. The jet has served me well and I am happy with it. If I were buying today there are a lot more choices in the 18" size then when I purchased mine and I don't know if I would make the same decision today.
I'v been to the Grizzly showroom and although many people like them I wasn't very impressed with the quality of much of what I saw and I probably wouldn't purchase a Grizzly machine. That was a couple of years ago and that might have changed but for now I don't even consider them. The most interesting newer saw that I've seen is the Rikon and I think I would give it a closer look. Don't know much about Steel City as they are new.
I have noticed that the price of the saws you mentioned have risen considerably over what I paid and If I couldn't find a sale anywhere I probably would begin to look at the smaller Bridgewood or Mini Max machines but in that case you may have to upgrade your electrical service.
Good luck with your decision I'm sure that whichever one you choose once you tune it up and get real good quality blade you will be happy with it.
I bought myself a Laguna 14SE for the holidays. Delivery was quick, 1 week. Customer Service has been EXCELLENT! I love this saw. The table is dead flat. The wheels were perfectly balanced. The Swedish steel blades cut beautifully. The only issue I could even complain about is that the wheels are so heavy that they free wheel for quite a while before stopping. Shame they don't make an hand brake for it :)
All of the negative comments "I" have read while researching my purchase were either people moaning and groaning just to complain, the motor HP, or old issues with previous versions of the saw. For example, the LT14SE comes w/a 4" dust collection port not 3". Customer service has been excellent.
My experience has been nothing but positive.
As for 220V. If you have an open slot in your box just pop in a breaker and run the wire. It is a lot easier than you think. If you don't know how then buy the plug, socket, box, conduit (if needed) wire and install the box and run the wire so that all the electrician needs to do is make the connections.
HTH.
Stephen
Just an FYI~ During the month of February, Woodcraft will again be selling the 18" RIKON for $999.99.- Lyptus
I've spoken with Laguna - was hoping to see their products at the Baltimore woodworking show, but they decided to cancel. Everything I hear, the saws are great, but I can't see justifying the 2x cost. Is a 14" LTSE @ $1,500+ shipped to your door twice as nice are running a Powermatic 14CS which is $850 to your door with a riser block kit? Or an 18" Rikon for $1,000 at Woodcraft?Having said that, are there any fundamental opinions on going 14" Powermatic/etc. versus Rikon 18"? It's about $200 difference...Filippo
Filippo,
I bought an 18" HD Laguna BS a couple of years ago and although it is a Cadillac of a saw I have to agree with you about the cost. If I had to do it over I would have bought the Rikon(they were'nt out then) from my local Woodcraft store and would be much happier because of it. I don't use the bandsaw enough to justify that expense and I think it was a waste. If you are looking for the best, buy the Laguna, but if OK suites you on some tools buy the Rikon.
Thanks, Terry. Seems like, if you want to buy the best, Laguna or Minimax. If you want to buy very good at less than half the price, buy Rikon ...Filippo
I had my eyes on the Rikon 18" from the time it first came out. Having already spent my "tool allowance" for the next 10 years, I just waited, skipping lunch for about a year or so to be able to get it without having my wife shoot me.Well I'm glad I waited because Rikon came out with their 14" deluxe BS. It will resaw stock up to 13" wide, which is all that I need.Took delivery a week and a half ago, and let me tell you it's now the niftiest tool in my shop. The saw came practically totally assembled, except for the base cabinet (no big deal to assemble} and the packing is one box with fitted foam (lake you see in high end audio stuff or computers. I mean this thing came in the best condition I've ever seen. Although, I wish I could say that about the owners manual. This thing is the classic example of really poor translation, printing (photos so dark, you can't see anything in the shadow areas. And to top it of, there were lines completely missing and one or two outright major errors.Thankfully, you can download a manual (in PDF format) from their website, and the best tech support I've experienced in many years, complete with real American support staff, who speak english.I haven't had too much of a chance to use the saw enough to be able to fully review it, but from the little messing around I've done, it looks like I've got a keeper.P.S. The saw comes wired for 110 v, although you can rewire it for 230 v. This was a moot point as I have two dedicated 20A lines run into the shop.When I get better acquainted with the saw, I'll post my findings.Bruce
i just saw that saw, huh! at my hardwood outlet yesterday. i had never seen it or heard of it before. it looked really impressive and i'm currently interested in band saws. it also looked like it came with an integral fence. i would definitely like to know more about what you think of it as you use it. the one i saw was priced at $750, yours too?
thanks for posting,
greg
That's the price I paid, plus some delivery charges . Got it from Woodcraft. So far, with very little use, just some minor tests, I feel that I'm in love with the saw. The instruction manual sucks, but assembly is minimal (just the base cabinet) and the rest isn't too hard to figure out, besides, their tech support appears to be top notch.You are right, the saw comes with a fairly substantial fence along with an aluminum "dowel" type of single point for resawing help. Not too sure if I like the fence after seeing the video clip at the Laguna site. They seem to have a really nifty fence, with a price to match, about $300.00 . At this point, I can't tell if an upgrade is really needed.As I mentioned earlier, as soon as I get to put the saw through its paces, I'll post my feelings about it.Bruce
ok, great thanks much.
greg
For $250 more, you move up to the 18" Rikon. If you're fairly price sensitive the 14" Deluxe sounds great. But if not price sensitive, why not move up to the bigger saw?
why not move up to the bigger saw?
one reason and one reason only. my shop is at work and we will not be upgrading to 220 service. and the second one and only reason is that my shop in minescule in proportions, that 18 inch saw looks very large. that being said, it is a good idea and i like the way you think. thanks for the suggestion.
Some of the 18" saws can be switched over to 110 easily. The only issue is having a line that can accomodate the amp draw. The footprint of the 18" isn't a whole lot bigger than the big 14" Deluxe Rikon.
JH
ok, good to know and thank you.
As the original initiatior of this thread, I'd like to thank everyone for their input on the bandsaw topic. The information has been very helpful. After some soul searching and weighing the size of the tool and the need to convert my garage to 220V, I went the less costly route and purchased a 14" deluxe Rikon bandsaw. So far, I've been extremely pleased with it and have no second thoughts. It cuts SO much better than my old 12" jet (but of course it should). It also does a nice job resawing. The fit and finish were excellent and I've had no problems changing blades. I'd say, however, that the 14" is significantly smaller and lighter than the 18" saw and somewhat less "solid." That's something of an advantage in my case due to limited space and the need for easy mobility, but I don't want the previous poster to think that there isn't a significant difference. I'm sure the 18 is an excellent machine and I guess its possible that I'll be lusting after it in 6 months, but I somehow doubt that I will realistically be outgrowing the capabilities of this nice 14" bandsaw anytime soon. Thanks again for everyone's input.Rick
what are you using to make the bandsaw mobile? i'm considering this one as well and my shop is tiny.
I use a ShopFox mobile base rated for 1300 lbs. support. I placed a 3/4 plywood board on the base and drilled holes through each of the four bottom corners aligning with the pre-drilled holes in the Rikon Base. I then placed bolts up through the bottom of the base and board. I raised the bandsaw 6" off the ground by using a pulley system attached to the eye-screw on top of the bandsaw and an eye-screw that I screwed into my ceiling joist. After raising and suspending the bandsaw off the ground, I placed the mobile base underneath it and slowly lowered the bandsaw onto the mobile base and guided the bolts through the holes on the bandsaw bottom. I then added the lock washers and nuts to secure the saw. - Lyptus
Instead of struggling with that manual, you'd probably be further ahead by buying one of the bandsaw books -- either by Mark Duginske or Lonnie Bird.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I just "bit the bullet" after dealing with 110V outlets in my garage workshop and had a 100 AMP sub-panel installed (had very limited space left on my 200AMP service). I had two dedicated 220V 30 AMP lines and two 20AMP lines run. I didn't feel comfortable nor have the knowledge/experience to try it myself. Cost was $935. While I won't be running two tools that need 220V, I decided to have them installed on both walls to have flexibility when I roll my table saw around (or future bandsaw). Additional cost was not that much for two vs. one. While the upgrade was expensive, I think it was a wise move rather than to limit my future machine purchases to only those that require 110V. Good luck.
To clarify, the two 20AMP lines were 110V not 220V.
I finally finished rewiring my shop with two new 120V 20amp circuits and one new 220V 20amp circuit for my new 18" Rikon Bandsaw. I started the saw for the first time yesterday since it arrived nearly two months ago. In terms of fit and finish, the saw arrived in overall good shape. It does have a dent in the lower door and arrived with some rust on the table that was easily removed with steel wool. The biggest issue was that the base was not perfectly level (1/4" high in one corner). Given all the positive press about Rikon, I was a little disappointed that the saw base was so off. I was also not prepared for how top heavy the saw is. But as I mentioned in my last post, I dealt with that by bolting the saw to a 1300# capacity Shop Fox mobile base. When the base is locked down, the saw is pretty rock solid stable. The saw runs very smoothly and quietly. I made a few cuts on 2” thick Lyptus and the saw worked well with the standard blade. I am going to replace the 3/4” stock blade with a 1/2” timberline blade for general work. All of the bolts needed to adjust the blade guides have easy access except for one- the bolt on the bottom guide used to free up the lower guide block. In retrospect, it would be good to loosen this bolt prior to bolting on the table because the factory had secured it pretty tight. My shop is small- 11” x 21”. This saw barely fits in with the rest of my stuff and rewiring to 220V was time consuming but not difficult. So it makes a lot of sense to me why so many choose the 14” saws, especially the 14” Rikon. That said, I’m really glad I purchased the 18” model. It is very sturdy, heavy, and appears powerful although I haven’t tried resawing a 10” oak board yet. Also, at $1030.00 including home delivery, the price is unbeatable. I doubt that I will ever have to upgrade. Also, having to accommodate this beast in my small shop has provided me with an incentive to reorganize and redesign the space, placing all machines on mobile bases, installing tool cabinets, etc., all which is already proving to be a lot of fun.- Lyptus
Rewire now. My son is an electrical contractor, I have gc lic and teach const classes . our new shop, 5 K sq ft, has 200 amp 42 circuit box with a spare sub half way down the wall. he said he didn't want to see the lights dim when the air compressor kicks on when someone was welding or the planer was running.. dedicated conduit to every machine and extras under the concrete ...next step is to upgrade the lighting
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