On my table saw, a new Vermont American 6″ dado set leaves grooves in the tenon, enough and deep enough to make cleanup take more time than it’s worth. Is this something that all dado sets do or just this brand? (I’m wondering if I should return it and invest in a more expensive set or go back to cutting tenons with a regular blade.) Thanks for any insight.
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Replies
Frear, if possible return it and apply the money toward a better dado set. VT American is not known for quality as you have now found out.
Thanks. Any brands in particular you'd recommend? I know of Freud.
I own a dewalt set and it works great. I picked it up from grizzly and they threw in a magnetic shim set. If I recall correctly it cost me about 90$.
ChaimMake your own mistakes not someone elses, this is a good way to be original !
Low-end dado sets don't cut flat-bottomed grooves, and that translates into tenons with undulating surfaces as well.
Freud makes some dado sets that cost around $80-100. Those are about the cheapest that I know of that will leave a flat surface.
-Steve
Thanks. I like cutting with the dado set, so I'll save up for the Freud.
One other question: My Craftsman 10" table saw accepts only part of the dado stack (two blades and maybe two chippers); is there any way around this? Safety is my top concern, so I've made sure the blade nut is tight with at least a little thread showing.
Edited 6/28/2008 9:51 pm ET by Frear
Are you leaving the washer on? You don't need it. Otherwise there's no way round it. Tablesaws that don't have an arbor long enough for a dado set probably weren't intended for use with one, though I don't recall hearing of one that allows half of a set.
Jim
The interior washer, right? Sounds like that's my problem. Thanks.
Yikes! Definitely leave the interior washer on. It's what aligns the blade with the arbor. Personally, I wouldn't run without both washers.
I meant the washer between the nut and the blade. I've never actually had a saw with an interior washer. Most manuals will tell you what you can remove. The fact that yours recommends a 6" dado set suggests that it may not be safe to use a larger, though the manual should tell you that also. There are so many Craftsman models that it's difficult to generalize.
Jim
If your saw is a 10" Contractor Saw like Model # 113.298844 the manual says, "The arbor on the saw, is only long enough so that the widest cut that can be made is 9/16" wide. It is not necessary to install the outside loose collar before screwing on the arbor nut. Make sure the arbor nut is tight."
I have the Freud $200 set and received very good flat-bottomed dados on that saw and also high quality full wideth dados on my new 3hp Steel City cabinet saw.
Nervous Nellie here,
I'd be concerned about all those cutters under a little nut. But that's just me.
"I'd be concerned about all those cutters under a little nut. "
I do it all the time. If the nut (which is really not so little) is tight enough to hold the blades on WITH a washer, it's tight enough to hold 'em on WITHOUT one. I can't see how a blade and a washer is any different than two (or more) blades. IMHO, the washer is primarily to help keep things stiff and aligned against the arbor flange when using a single blade. No real need for that with a stack of dado blades. There's no way the blades will deform enough to come loose. And in 30+ years of using various saws, I've never seen an arbor nut come loose. (Probably because the arbor spins in the direction that causes the nut to actually tighten in use, as opposed to loosen.)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Seems like a plausible argument. I'm glad my arbor holds the entire dado set.
Just so you know, I've got the Frued 8" $100 set and it does leave grooves in the joint. Not sure it's worse than what you're experiencing or not. I have used it to cut a lot of tenons and what I do is just run in the piece over the blade quickly several times at different positions along the tenon and it is acceptable. I don't really mind doing it, it just seems normal with stack dados to me. I always shoulder plane to fit afterwards anyway, so maybe I'm not objective.Brian
Narrow grooves are okay; it's the non-flat bottoms that cheaper dado sets leave that cause problems when cutting a tenon.
-Steve
Well said Steve.
Edited 6/29/2008 6:13 pm ET by gofigure57
Little "bat ears" are part and parcel of the dado blades that do a good "shearing" job, which is what leaves the clean edges. That's different from a tenon that feels looks corrugated across it's entire surface.
The elimination of bat ears is part of what makes Freud's Box Joint Cutter set so nice.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
How bad are the grooves? Few blades cut truly flat-bottomed kerfs, including most dado blades (even the Forrests). The outisde blades are normally bevelled toward the outside to achieve a clean shoulder cut. The result is a relatively flat cut with two deeper points at the sides. I don't think any dado blade will leave as smooth a tenon as a standard blade with a tenoning jig or router bit.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
The project was end lap joints on a frame for an outdoor lattice box. The lap was 3 1/2 inches wide (1x4 lumber) and the grooves were noticeable enough when I joined the two laps together that I had to put wood filler on the edges. OK for an outdoor carpentry-type project, but I bought the dado set planning to do more mortise and tenon work for furniture and indoor projects.
There really isn't a need for tenons to be glass smooth but some insist. The outside blades often project a little higher than the cutters. The flat bottom dadoes are the most expensive, $200 or more per set. Less expensive sets can be more coarse cutting, particularly entry level sets like Vermont American, Craftsman, etc. I use Freud's 8" $99 set. There is a very slight line where the blades cut deeper but it isn't anything that effects normal tenons. I don't have the time to do additional work on things like a tenon and prefer them to be a fit off the saw. If you can't get a full 13/16" set on the arbor, your saw is probably not intended for dado use. The arbor bearings may not stand up to the stress. Slowing down on your feed speed can help with the quality of the cut. The pic is not a close up but I think you can see the tenon is pretty clean and tight, so are the shoulders.
Thanks for the photo. Your tenons definitely look cleaner than come off my set. I didn't run the cut across multiple times because the project didn't demand it, but it got me thinking that if I had to go across it that many times, it would be faster to cut with a regular blade and jigs. The reason I went with the Vermont American set is that it's a 6" set (the size the Craftsman table saw manual recommends). I just looked in Woodcraft, and all I see are 8" sets. Any recommendations?
http://www.eagleamerica.com Is now carries the Oshlun dado set Part no. 601-2008 for $79.99 IMHO the blade could sell for $140-160. There are 6 teeth per chipper, Carbide is C4. When I tried one I was super impressed with the quality of the blades and the cut. The bottoms were perfectly flat and the outer blades made very minimal "bat ears". Believe it or not but the cuts were every bit as good as a Forrest or Freud Super Dado and better than Freuds Pro Dado.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Great. Thanks.
My tenons have the small grooves which are common and mentioned here by some. I never minded the slight roughness of the tennon and only adjust it to get a snug fit. I figured the slight roughness gives a better surface for glue adhesion in a well fitting tennon.
Webby
I have a Forrest dado set. On my ancient RAS, it cuts as smooth as can be. On my TS, it cuts like someone hacked it out with a hatchet. Well, OK, not QUITE that bad. But still . . . .
Turns out, the TS arbor is a bit undersized, so the blades in the dado set don't line up exactly, and the RAS's arbor is spot on. You might check this before you blame the blade.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything seems snug and the alignment checks out, but I'll take a closer look. I just returned the Vermont American set, so I'll see how the new set does out of the box. Thanks for the suggestion.
My 6" dado set is by Systi-Matic. That's never sounded like a premium brand, but I inspected it closely before I bought it and I was impressed with its heft and balance. Test cuts at home confirmed what I perceived in the store.
The chippers are full sized, not just wings with a tooth at each end. In use, I've never failed to be impressed by its results. I usually find myself saying, "this tool is a beauty" at the end of the cut. I believe that my 3 HP motor is the absolute minimum needed to haul that beast around, though.
It does leave bat ears at the edges (great term!), so I wouldn't choose it for lap joints that leave an exposed end. For blind tenons I agree with Webby that the ridges provide welcome tiny resevoirs for glue to squeeze in along the joint. I cut all my tenons with this set, and they have never failed structurally with these ridges.
Until this thread I've never given any thought to the saw arbor diameter, but I can see that this might be important for a good dado cut. Instinct tells me that it would be unwise to skip the arbor washer. Especially with the mass of the spinning dado set, I'd want the assembly to be held on tight when the work hits it. Also, if there is any play in the arbor fit, the washer will grip the blades farther away from the axis than a tiny nut, stabilizing the set and holding it together better.
My 25 cents.
Thanks for the advice. Good thoughts on the lap versus the tenon. What do you use for joints that will show at the edges? As for the dado, the Oshlun set that Bruce S. recommended arrived today, so I'll see how it performs.
I don't know the Oshlun but it sounds like my Systi-Matic with six teeth per chipper.
I don't make a lot of lap joints but I'd go with my flat-tooth rip blade and careful fence setup. Since the inside corner of the rabbet will also show, I'd cut a little shy of the corner and finish with a chisel for a neat appearance. Even if you don't have a flat-tooth blade you can cut shy and ease up to the corner with a chisel.
Thanks. I've had some non-woodworking projects the past couple of weekends, but I'll be testing out the new setup soon. I'm still in the stage of making different joints just to try them out. So thanks for the advice.
I've used a Craftsman "wobble-type" dado cutter for years (I don't think they sell this style any more?) . You can find them on e-bay - if not, I've got two and would be willing to sell one to you. Has carbide blades. I'm guessing this style may be harder on arbor bearings than the stacked variety, but it takes no time to setup as you dial-in the width of the groove.
Thanks. I jumped on the Oshlun set that Bruce S. recommended, and it arrived today, so I'll see how it performs. (A new tool always makes it feel like a birthday.)
I guess my reputation is at stake. No worries here! Anxious for your reviews ;-)Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
The Oshlun set is a winner. The full blade for the chipper is more solid and makes setup much easier, spinning it into place. The quality of all the pieces in the set is very nice. I've done some preliminary cutting, so I haven't answered my original question, but I've cleared some non-wood projects and that comes next. Thanks, again, for the referral.
Enjoy, So my reputation is intact.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
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