I just bought a house with a two-car garage (old story, I’m sure) and now have the space to explore a life-long interest in woodworking.
I am looking to buy my first table saw and I have been looking around. I had pretty much decided to go with a Delta 36-650 I saw at Lowes for $498 last week, but I was looking around at Sears this afternoon. They had a Craftsman 22859 with a 30″ “Align a Rip” fence and integrated dust collection system on sale for $499 (supposedly $300 off).
If you had $500 to spend on a table saw, would the Craftsman 22859 be a better choice than the Delta 36-650.
All comments and advice are appreciated.
Replies
If I had $500 TS dedicated dollars, I'd find a used cabinet saw. I've never owned anything with the Craftsman name on it (made in the last 20 years) that wasn't better made by somebody else. The Delta is OK, but with some patience and luck, you can score a great saw for $500.
I'm pretty much a beginner in this woodworking hobby, built a few tables for the wife and such and since it is really just a hobby and not tied to my financial stability, a cheaper price was important to me.
My TS wis a craftsman. An even cheaper model than the one your looking at. It has suited me just fine. It comes on when I flip the switch, the blade runs true, the fence is straight and easy to set up, it cuts in a staight line, and the table is flat. Only complaint I have is that the table is small, but I plan to fix that problem in the near future by building table extensions along both sides and the back, these additions along with a more permanent stand for the saw and I think it will be just fine for my needs.
I've noticed that Craftsman tools are not looked upon favorably in this forum and maybe I just got lucky, but for the money I can't see where I went wrong. I would caution you however that craftsman saws are made by several diffrent manufacturers and would be willing to bet that not all of them are built the same. I know that you can trace the manufacturer with the serial number, not sure about the model number though.
Hope this helps.
I sold my Craftsman about two years ago for a new Jet 3hp. Today I had the occasion to use a friend's Craftsman just like the one I sold. I could really appreicate my Jet. I cut (ripped) some 1X popliar using a new Freud glue line blade and found it was too easy to bog down the saw. If you never use a good cabnet saw you may not miss it, but if you ever cut any 2X hardwood with the Craftsman you will upi will wish for more power. Go for the good used cabnet saw. Just my opinion.
Unfortunately, a cabinet saw isn't really an option given my shortage of space. That is why I have been looking more at contractor saws. I need something that I can roll over out of the way when it isn't being used.
Actually, a contractor saw takes up more space if you count the motor sticking out the back -- assuming you're comparing this to a cabinet saw with a 30-inch rip capacity. Most older cabinet saws came standard with crappy jet-lock fences and 30-something rip capacity. You can always replace these with a Biesemeyer-type fence.
And don't think of woodworking as a temporary hobby where you just want to build few things here-and-there -- you'll do this for LIFE! My first tablesaw was a Grizzly contractor I bought for $350. Used it for 10 years and gave it away to a co-worker for free. I currently own a sliding tablesaw that has a 10'x14' footprint, when using the outrigger.
What type of sliding saw do you own?
John
I have the Mini Max SC4W. I plan to remove the extension table and cut off the rip-fence rail to 30-inch mark so I can gain some space.
Edited 3/9/2004 3:59:36 PM ET by Newhuh
Tarheel,
Having lived "mobile" for 30 years, a cabinet saw is a better choice since it takes up less room that contractor saws. The footprint on my 3hp cabinet saw is a third less than that of my contractor saw. The cabinet saw is heavier but the appropriate mobile base will permit you to move them around without a problem. Whatever you buy, invest in really good blades and link belts. Both of these items can made a so-so saw perform much better. I believe Grizzly sells a 2hp cabinet saw for under $800, but I could be wrong.
Doug
Numerous companies make rolling bases for cabinet saws and the price will be close to or the same as the price for a rolling base for a contractor's saw.
John W.
Find a good used Unisaw or copy. It’ll save you the inevitable trouble of upgrading later, believe me it WILL happen! Also, a cabinet saw takes up far less space than a typical contractors saw will. There are good used saws out there for $500-$750 all the time. My fully reconditioned Unisaw was only $900.
If you can find you a good used 10 inch Craftsman belt driven saw and spend some money on a good fence you will have a good starter saw and some of that $500.00 left for accessories (link belt, steel pulleys, dado blade, etc.) I drive a Delta Unisaw now and I love it, but I had a couple of Craftsmans before I got it and I enjoyed them very much. It's fun to have the top of the line tools to work with, but the joy of woodworking is not all in the tools. (it just seems like it sometimes)
Gods Peace
les
ABC........Anything But Craftsman. The Delta is a better choice.
John
I would not recommend the Craftsman and really suggest you explore a used cabinet saw. You will NOT regret your decision.
Just like most who have commented, I would try to avoid buying the Craftsman contractor saw. It sounds like you have been wanting to get into woodwork for some time, and finally the time is right. If you are patient and do your homework you can enjoy the better tool a lot sooner. It's always nice to get any new tool, but once the hobby take off there is usually no slowing down. Say a year from now you really wish you have saved and bought the cabinet saw. You will never look at the cabinet saw and say, "I probably could have gotten away with the contractors saw". I own the Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw and have been completely satisfied. It's not top of the line by any means but for the price, and where I was in regards to woodworking, it has been a perfect fit. I have a complete shop in a one car garage and I have no problem making room for whatever I need to do. Mobile bases are a lifesaver!
Ryan
Here's a used Rockwell cabinet saw with a replacement rip fence for $795 (scroll down). It looks like an Excalibur or a ShopFox Classic fence. This is just a sample of an "older" machine that's fairly affordable and well made. You can probably get one for even cheaper if you look in a newspaper ad. There are hundreds of used machine resellers all over the U.S.
http://www.minimax-usa.com/specials.html
Edited 3/9/2004 5:02:31 PM ET by Newhuh
You've received numerous replies suggesting that you take your time on this purchase and find a decent cabinet saw. On the whole, I would agree with their assessment, as your abilities in woodworking will only grow with time, experience and mistakes, and you will want a saw that keeps up with you. I know...I have a 25-year old Craftsman that has been tweaked, adjusted and upgraded until I can't think of anything else to do to it. I'm upgrading, but I plan to take my time and look around before I jump into a new relationship.
One of the considerations in getting a cabinet saw hasn't been mentioned by anyone yet, which surprises me. Most, if not all, require 220V power with a minimum of 20 amps service and usually 30 amps. Does your garage have this, and is it on a dedicated circuit rather than an extension of the dryer circuit, which seems to often be the case? Grizzly make a 110V version of their 1023Z cabinet saw, but the result is a less powerful saw.
Regards,
Ron
Model #113.298842, ten years old. At the time this was their 'top of the line' saw
3 hp (really 1.5), 2 cast iron extension wings, shop built T-square type fence that rides on ball bearings. I consider this fence to be the best part of the saw. It rips up to 44" to the right of the blade. I like it better than the Bies. It's based on plans that were in FWW.
The motor can be wired for either 110 or 220v. It's currently wired 220v. It's controlled by magnetic contactors that automatically turn on a 110v dust collector or shop-vac when the saw is started. The back of the saw is blocked off to aid in dust collection. The bottom is also sealed off except where the dc hose goes.
Other accessories included with saw:
Tenioning/universal jig
link belt
mobile base
zero clearance insert
regular insert
dado insert
Freud 8", 24 tooth safety dado (almost new) w/magnetic spacers included
cross cut sled that's good for a 30" cut
I'll even throw in a couple pro quality 60 tooth and 18 tooth blades.
This saw works great and has had no trouble cutting anything I've thrown at it. The only reason I'm selling it is to make room for a Euro sliding saw. (yippie!)
I'll gladly email anyone who is interested pics of everything.
$500 for the whole package. (I hate to think what I have invested)
I live on the CA coast 45 minutes west of Santa Barbara
Nick
Nick,
Thanks for the offer, but shipping alone would probably double the cost.
I live on the other coast, North Carolina to be exact.
Allan
Tarheel,
I'll chime in with the chorus here. A little patience and time spent hunting will almost certainly get you a very nice used cabinet saw for your $500, or less. Lots of retirees in NC, and as a result, lots of woodworker 'attrition' resulting in widows who sell the tools. I saw a very nice Oliver cabinet saw here locally for $350 (!!), and Unisaws for $500 are pretty common. Only the fact that I have neither need NOR space kept me from bringing that Oliver home ... (One of the guys I share shop space with has a 12 foot bed Oliver patternmaker's lathe that he was similarly just not able to resist. What a piece of iron that is ... )
I know the urge - "I've got the money, the space, the spousal greenlight, I want my saw -- like YESTERDAY!" But, in the long run (heck, within 3 months of bringing it home) you'll be very glad to have taken a little more time, and sought out the extra quality.
Have fun!
Clay
Isn't 45 minutes west of Santa Barbara the Pacific Ocean?
Tarheel99,
Welcome to the forum, have fun.
My Craftsman TS has served me well for 20 to 21 years. I've done the upgrades talked about (linkbelt, pulley's & aftermarket fence), and blades, everybody loves nice blades. The upgrades improve the saw alot. I have no intension of replacing it, at least not in the near future. Too many other toys to buy. A cabinet saw would be better, much better, but I'm a hobbist. Money was a real issue when I bought my TS.
Craftsman and Grizzly will raise some +/- feelings around here. I own 2 Grizzly machines.
Go Terp's, ACC weekend!
Enjoy, Roy
Hahahahahahaa
That always gets a reaction!
If you look on a map Santa Barbara is also about 2 hours west of LA. Lompoc is as far west as a person can get in the lower 48. That is why the Air Force picked it for it's west coast missile launch site. It is the only place where they can put a missile into polar orbit.
You know, I recall about dozen years ago when I lived in Newport Beach, Calif. (Orange County), seeing, sustained, bright orange light and what I remember as huge vapor trail coming from miles north -- and that wasn't the sun or the smog! I guess that was a missile launch?
PCH 1 drive is the best! Santa Barbara is a really cool town, especially after driving past L.A. to get there.
Been to A.J.Spurs lately??
Yes I have!
Great food at a great price if you do the early bird dinner.
You might be better looking at the Ridgid at home depot for the amount of money you are thinking of. A used table saw is a nice idea but most times you need to be very sure the saw is in good order. Check all the bearings, table top, fence action, guard fittings as you will not have a warranty and any parts you might need, can you still get them.
In response to buying the Ridgid. Both the Craftsman and Ridgid are made by the same company, Emerson Electric. The paint is different but the saw is the same. I used a Craftsman for 25 years and just purchased a Jet Supersaw. I was the best investment I every made.
Edited 3/12/2004 10:41 am ET by woodglue
I stepped up from the $189 skil to the Dewalt 746k with sliding table 2 years ago and have been very pleased with it. But with the skil table saw I made some very nice items. main reason for the upgrade happened when the skil motor brushes were worn to nothing and melted the carrier. Just the right time for the upgrade. But if you only have $500 to spend then both the Jet and Dewalt are out of reach!
USANigel:
I'll put my two cents in. I too went from a little benchtop to a used craftsman that had been upgraded. I've slid a lot of wood across it and its served me well, but the brushes are going on it and there's no way to replace them. My shop's in the garage so the saw is mobile. A contractor type with the motor in the back doesn't work for me either. I'm looking for a used cabinet saw. BUT, my uncle's company just got bought by B&D so it maybe that I can get Dewalt at cost. Most of the tool dealers I talk to don't like the Dewalt 746 because of the cost and the fit and finish. In fact, no one around here stocks it - its a special order item. You happy with it?
Anyone else out there own a DW746?
Tommyboy
With mine, had it two years, I found the fit and finish to be very good. It runs great (much better when working with 240V setup) very smooth, the included blade cuts very smooth to the point of being ready for glue. As with any tool there could be improvements, but in general its all there. Many years ago I worked for Wadkin woodworking machinery and this saw can be set up to cut just as nice. (not as much power) I have the 746K with the sliding table and 52" rails (really 50" usable) built my own out feed cabinet and zero inserts (out of corian). I would buy again.
USANigel:
Thanks alot. I talked to my Uncle earlier tonight and it does look like I'll be able to get it at cost. He's going to make some calls for me. I've heard some rumbles that Dewalt may discontinue the saw so I hope he hurries. I was scrolling around in Breaktime over at Fine Homebuilding and the readers there seem to have mixed feelings about Dewalt. I own at least four Dewalt tools and have been very happy with them. I would never buy Craftsman or Ryobi new. I've decided that if I can't afford a professional grade tool, I'll make do without until I can. WW is a sideline for me but I don't want to waste time trying to get some piece of crap to work right. Great tools don't mean great work, but it's a lot harder to make something great with a POS tool.
Tools are a strange thing! I have a few Roybi tools and they work great, way better than I expected for the money. ie $25 for a sander, works as good as the bosch I have. 8 1/4 " miter saw, now 15 years old, still cutting great and straight. Craftsman tapes lifetime exchange (how do you beat that!) It will be a shame if the 746 is discontinued, it is a good saw.
Thanks. I faxed my Uncle a wish list including the 746. We'll see how much it comes in at and whether there's room in the budget for it. It's funny about Ryobi - I've got an 8 year old router from Ryobi that just won't die, but the stuff I see in the stores now doesn't do much to impress me.
Say
I am right were you are. but I am replacing an older Craftsman TS. I opted for a Unisaw "50's vintage". once you start looking at them carefully you'll see they are very simple machinery, heavy duty but simple. The main things to look for are the motor and the arbor bearings. The bearing are $20 a pease and the are easly replaced. Every part of the Unisaw is available from multiple sources ...even 50 years later. I particularly like to believe that hundereds of real craftsmen have used my saw. Check you local paper and eBay. look for quality brands Powermatic, Unisaw. I found several decent Unisaws at $550-600. I will have added $100 more but I have a saw that will last 20yrs and I can add all kinds of accessories.
They are no larger than a contractor saw and can be moved around pretty easily.
Good luck
If you have the time, patience and knowledge to look for something used - do that.
Also...
You might want to consider a bandsaw in-lieu of the table saw. That is certainly another discussion altogether but one worth thinking about.
My buddy bought the RIGID mid priced table saw with the cast iron wings sold at HOME DEPOT and we both use it and have been happy with it. We aren't Pro's, but we do appreciate it's "user friendliness" and quality of cuts.
I've considered purchasing a DeWalt contractor portable saw because I am seriously short of space to keep a real table saw around. I haven't heard any Pro's or Con's on them, but I like the yellow. Te-he-he.
Good luck with your choice and let us know what you finally get and how you like it.
F
As you can well see this topic can stir up a good deal of interest. At the time I purchased my table saw I was also in the market for a jointer and had limited funds to work with. Would I rather have a cabinet saw with double the hp, sure, just as I would rather have an 8" jointer than the 6" I ended up with. But these compromises didn't compromise the quality of my work.
I'll echo a few of the other comments already posted, purchase what you can afford and make it work for you. If you go the tablesaw route purchase a unit with cast iron wings, if you go the used cabinet saw route make sure the saw is in ready to work condition and make sure you can test the saw before you haul it away. I firmly believe that the type of saw you choose will not make you a better craftsman, but the quality of your bench skills will, the saw will make you more efficient.
I have to admit though, everytime I visit my sister I salivate over my brother in law's Powermatic 66, what a saw!
Have fun, and good luck with whatever you choose!
Tarheel:
Although I have been working wood for close to 10 years, I still feel myself as a beginner and relate completely to your situation.
I first bought a craftsman table saw in 1993. Somehow, by sheer luck, I happened on my first issue of FWW and it featured the top of a Delta contractor saw on the cover. After reading more, I took the Craftsman back and bought the Delta. It served me well, but becuase of the motor hanging out of the back, it took up a lot of space. With the open sheet metal stand, decent dust collection was difficult. In short, it made a mess.
Earlier this year, I sold the Delta and used the proceeds to buy a Unisaw. Everyone here is right. It takes up less space, runs better and has better dust collection capability than the contractor saw. HOWEVER, the contractor saw made good cuts - this cabinet saw makes very close to glue joint cuts.
Have some fun and spend some time on e-bay. The education you will get from looking at saws will surprise and amaze you. Besides, it is really fun.
Good luck from a lifelong newbie.
Bob
I have a 36-650 and it's a great saw,it can be hooked to 120v or 240v,
with cast iron wings she's very stable, it does have a big footprint however
(43" X 57") to be exact, that's with the motor sticking out the back and the full length
of the rail,the original fence is o.k. but for serious woodworking the biesemeyer fence
is a nice touch, sure there are a lot nicer,bigger and better machines out there, but
fisrt look at how much time you are willing to put into this, then look at your wallet.
As for the difference between Delta and Craftsman .....well it's kind of like comparing
Norm Abrams to........ Bob Villa............ somethings you just don't do.
hope this helped
Hey Tarheel,
I bought the Delta 36-650 a few months ago. The saw is inexpensive, has a great fence for the price, sets up was reletively easy, cuts straight and true. AND it runs on 110 volts unlike a cabinet saw. Table size is good and has a good rip width. And it is $500 new. There is something to be said for having a new saw with all the parts as opposed to a used one with things missing.
I am VERY pleased with mine.
My experience with Craftsman power tools have not been good. Drills fail, saws don't cut straight and routers quit running. Craftsman taught me to buy good power tools from Porter-Cable, Delta and Makita, tools that are really enjoyable to use.
Good luck making your decision.
Dave
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