There is a dovetail joint out there that I would love to try out sometime. Called a secret or miter dovetail. When closed, it looks like a simple miter joint, until you open it back up and find dovetails in there. I’ve seen Roy Underhill do these, but he does them too fast to learn how. Any takers out there.
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Look here, Whitedog:
http://pages.friendlycity.net/~krucker/Dovetail/dovetailjoints.htm
Oh yah ! Piece of cake. Just kidding. But they are possible.
Is this the critter you speak of ? See pics.
If yes one great great source for making this joint is
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=booksqid=1245543976&sr=1-1
By Ian Kirby
PS: The photo police stole my last pic. Here is a link to a past post with same pic.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=46085.26
Now I got to go learn how to remove old pics or some such. Wonder how much that will please people reading old threads with no pics and if they will be there then what is all this limit stuff ? Aaaah the sacrifices we crafts people make for our sport.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 6/20/2009 8:36 pm by roc
Edited 6/20/2009 8:37 pm by roc
Roy goes into detail on how to make that joint on page 136 in his new book The Woodwright's Guide Working Wood with Wedge & Edge.
http://www.amazon.com/Woodwrights-Guide-Working-Wood-Wedge/dp/0807859141/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245544220&sr=8-1
Here is my feeble attempt at the joint
Not feeble. Looks great ! Is that maple ? Not easy in maple !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Yes it's hard maple and my first attempt at the joint. Maybe I'll give it another shot this weekend and see how much cleaner it comes out.
Mike
Roc,
I have created a "secret butt joint". It looks like a through dovetail, but that is only on the surface. I came up with idea while looking at Kintaro Yazawa's website on joints. Some of Kintaro's joints are not what they first appear to be. The other idea I got while looking at Kintaro's website was to take his ideas one step farther. Instead of just having one "seeming" joint on top of another, one could put one on top of another on top of a third, which is the only real joint. Of course, the person who looks at the surface of the joint could not tell if there is zero, one or two fake joints covering the real joint, so the only people who would be surprised would be someone who was taking the joint apart. Probably not worth the effort. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>one could put one on top of another on top of a third, which is the only real jointMel,Always trying to get to the root of things aren't you ? Looks like you have created a new branch of archeology; excavating home woodworker projects to discover the buried secrets. Mel . . . you aren't working too hard or any thing are you ? Don't make me worry about you like this. Get some rest. Listen to roc you will feel better soon.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
Am I working too hard?
Not quite. My wife and I are in California, visiting our BRAND NEW GRANDDAUGHTER. She is beautiful, and only two weeks old. We are at the home of my oldest son and his wife, and we are having the time of our lives with little Lucy. Even woodworking isn't this good!Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Have you seen the Dovetail Tape? You apply it to your butt joints to make them look like dovetails. No joke.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Where do I look for secret DT miter joint tape? Perhaps it's with the other goods in the camouflage department... :>)
Sarge..
But only on a "need to know" basis. That is why it is a secret joint. I guess if you made one for a table top, that would be classed as "Top Secret" joints. I think I'll go out and "putter" around some.
Interestingly enough... on two different chest of drawers I posted here and two other forums mentioning I usded secret miter dove-tails on the base... not one person inquired about them or even mentioned them period. I suppose they should have been kept a secret as only your hair-dresser knows for sure. :>)
Sarge..
Aaaah well . . . at least you have something to look forward to.Have you had success with cutting basic dovetail joints?Be sure to have Mr. Ian Kirby at your side ( at least in book form ) .Keep at it,rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/16/2009 10:17 pm by roc
I'm puzzled by the Lincoln quotation. I think I understand the basic point, and that the quotation is accurate but why Lincoln would have put it that way I can't make out. As an old rail splitter, and in an age where many folks still chopped wood and trees, he would have known, and would have expected others in his audience to know, that an axe can be very well sharpened in 15 minutes, and superlatively so in under an hour. To take 4 hours would mean lots of rest time and procrastination before starting the main task at hand.
No point, just curious.
>lots of rest time and then . . . ooooh I don't know . . . maybe a nap before starting the main task at hand. Wellll . . . hmmmm . . .Could be he always had deep dings in his axe from fightin' orks and had obsessively to grind them out. Orks wear iron collars you know ( sorry just saw the Lord Of The Rings movies for the first time ).orHe was usin' oil stones ; we all know how slow those can be . . .: )orhe was playin' fast and loose 'cause he didn't know how else to get it across. Probably not the case but hey we all have days where we can't put two words together and just want to be left to our work.I believe he was saying :Preparation and attention to detail , even if it takes a good deal of time , can save a guy in sweat, blisters and $.Or maybe he was like me and enjoyed sharpening as much or more than swinging an axe.You sure ask dumb, errr . . . I mean HARD questions.: )PS: the guys on THE MOTHER SHIP just told me that Lincoln knew subtle things about sharpening an axe that no one else did and that it took time to get the thing just right; you know sort of like Thomas Jefferson's perfect plow mold board. They say they never could learn to do it but he sure was fun to go pub crawling with after wards.I don't know if I can believe them but that is what they said. My dog just told me I have to take my foil helmet off now so that will break the communication link. Sorry.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 7/17/2009 1:21 am by rocEdited 7/17/2009 1:30 am by roc
Edited 7/17/2009 1:44 am by roc
"Pay me six hours of labor to do a two hour job, and I'll do it in six hours. "
Rodney Dangerfield was once approached by a prostitute. She said " Hi there big boy ! For fifty dollars I'll do anything you ask ". Rodney looked around and said " Oh really ?" She said "That's right dear. Any thing you say ".
He said "Any thing ?"
She said " Sure why not "Rodney said "Good ! Paint my house. ": )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/18/2009 1:45 am by roc
And another joke i'll mess up..
A wife walks in and sees her husband looking at dead flies on the counter top.. All separated..
She asks if he had fun while I was away? He said yes! I got 15 flies! Male and female.. The wife asks how do you seperate the sexes?
He says.. Ten flies on the telephone and the other five on a beer can..
Not my joke.. I just remember it!
Edited 7/18/2009 8:30 pm by WillGeorge
Sign on a tool box lid: " If I had wanted to listen to someone bitch,moan and complain all the time, I'd have stayed home."
Roc,
Why have we spent so much time discussing the trivial "Secret dovetail" joint. The real action is in the "double twisted dovetail". Seehttp://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=furniture&file=articles_442.shtmlOr if one is really interested in top-notch joinery, then nothing is more interesting than the dovetails of Kintaro Yazawa. Secret dovetails are only a minor step in a long climb toward the good stuff.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
IF one can get good at making a secret dovetail joint, it makes the "road" to the other "fancier" joints a little bit easier. "...and may the road rise up to meet ye.."
>real action is in the "double twisted dovetail".I am waiting with abated breath to see your full blind version of the double twisted !Personally . . . this is just a personal view of the double twisted. I think it should be hidden. Not attractive or balanced to look at. Too chaotic.Kintaro Yazawa's are extraordinarily nice. Shame to use them on the feet of a big chest though.That was WHY we have spent so much time discussing the " trivial " Secret dovetail joint.It lets the nice quiet lines of the foot be simply that without all the toothy pins and tails.But then you know that.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Sarge,Here ya go!http://www.richardshed.com/product/dovetailChris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I've heard of it before... he said with a grin..... but never seen any or knew of a source. I think ordering it by the case may be a bit cheaper in the long haul so......
:>)
Sarge..
I checked out dovetail tape. Unbelevable . So if you cut it down the middle you could do half blinds to.Now maybe a stripe down the side of the work truck may bring some business.The screw head tape. Love to run into a nice fresh paint job, for a picky homeowner and slap up a few feet of that and see the expression on face????
CHris,
"EOVETAIL TAPE". Now that would be the biggest step forward in woodworking since the invention of the router plane. I am in CA for a few days, and it is HOT. How about where you live? Hot there too?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I bought a roll of "Butt joint tape" for $15. Strangely, it look just like regular packing tape. But it must be different, for what it cost!We've had wierd weather here on the West Coast. Last week, we had thunder showers, then it got up to 32 degrees. Yesterday was warm and sunny, but the evening was gray and rainy. I can't wait to get down to California again. I was planning a trip this summer down to Alta Loma to meet Mr. Maloof, but that very sadly isn't going to work. I hope to be back down there for part of the Woodworking Shows, though the schedule has been twisted around. We'll see.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
I looked up the dovetail tape. What a hoot! I am really glad you brought that up. I have never seen it referred to on Knots before, so it must not be well known. I was thinking seriously about "why secret dovetail joints"? If you are going to make the joint, why would you want to hide it? I am sure there are rationales but they must be perverse. Like "understated elegance". So to be even more perverse -- suppose you actually made a secret miter joint, wouldn't it be good to put a couple of "keys" through it to make it look stronger. :-) Or even more subtly, you could inlay a couple of pieces of veneer into the ends of the miter joint to make it look like it was splined. Actually it would have been "secret mitered" but no one would know, so the "fake spline" would really be a plus in convincing others that it is a "good" piece of furniture. I suppose you could also provide photos taken at NASA using special sensors that let you see inside a joint, but that would get expensive. Perception is a far stronger motivator than reality. If you perceive someone as dangerous, you will act accordingly, never mind that they might not be dangerous. So if you pereceive a piece of furniture as "fine furniture", it really doesn't matter if it is not so fine. There could be big money in the future of "real wood tapes" which seem like excellent joints. One could easily rabbet them in to a depth of a sixteenth of an inch, and they would be very convincing. I read a book once on "The gentle art of faking fine furniture", and I believe there was a line in there about more and more "antiques" being made every day. I believe the author said that whatever rich people want, will show up. He used the Getty museum as an example. Apparently they bought a number of items that were not what they were purported to be, which even fooled the experts, and they bought some other stuff which was stolen. SO what I am talking about is not far fetched. It behooves one to check very closely when buying expensive stuff. THese new "tapes" are going to make this more of a challenge.You made my entire year.
Thank you very much.
It is amazing what you know.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Why secret miters? Good question. I know that historically, joints were not meant to be seen, hence half-blind dovetails and moldings. However, nowadays exposed joinery is not only accepted, but also becoming "the norm" and a show of craftsmanship - "Look at the DOVETAILS! DOVETAILS mean quality". In the contemporary world, a secret miter might be used when a strong, but clean joint is needed.What would be really deceiving is if someone were to cut a secret dovetail, then apply a strip of dovetail tape.Personally, I don't much like the idea or look of miters, splined or not. They just don't have the appearance of a strong joint, in my view.Perception... How do you make something look fine but not actually be fine? I suppose it's all about making what counts of good quality. What counts is what the viewer will notice. Things like a smooth tabletop, smooth-sliding drawers, and level feet. But things like an uneven overhang, less visible joints that are poorly cut, and rough, hidden surfaces may go unnoticed.On of my mottos is that there is always room at the top. There is always demand for a top-quality product.I'm glad that I made your year! And it's always interesting talking to you, Mel.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I was visiting my granddaughter in CA, which took precidence over everything else, and then I was in transit. I enjoy conversations with you on woodworking. You see many of the same subtleties that I see (which may mean that we are both screwed up) :-) Sarge jumped into the conversation for a bit, but his slant on the topic was a bit different. He uses secret dovetails but doesn't consider them important. To me the really interesting subtleties are those in the word "important". Your take and mine are similar. You said "What counts is what the viewer will notice." I would take it a step forward and say, "What counts is what the buyer is willing to pay for." Of course, the great woodworker can and should influence the buyer, WHEN APPROPRIATE, and let the buyer have his own ideas WHEN APPROPRIATE. The difficult thing is to figure out when it is appropriate to try to educate a buyer. My primary source of good info on this are the fragmented and infrequent writings of Ray Pine. He wrote some very interesting things about his interactions with a buyer who became interested in Art Nouveau, which is not Ray's "natural" inclination, but he did it nonetheless, and MOREOVER, his stuff was absolutely stunning as well as authentically Art Nouveau. (as I have come to expect).Successful conversations with clients and potential clients can only happen with if the woodworker is can read the client well, and know what he can get away with in the conversation. This is why I am so looking forward to the visit and talk by David Savage, which will take place on July 11, not far from here. I wish you could be here for it. I will try to take good notes and post you later.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The "miter dovetail" is used where the strength of the joint will be under stress, such as bracket feet. They add more strength than say, biscuits. People like Chippendale would have used these, not because they were "fancy", but because they were needed. Glue and biscuits may nice, but not as strong. When you have a "Highboy" sitting on these feet....
Dog,
Fully agree with you.But you would get the same strength with out making "secret dovetails" for those bracket feet. The need for the secret aspect is to make the lines "cleaner", which is a valid thing to do. There are many reasons why secret dovetails are important. One is that they give woodworking magazines something to write about. Dovetails and sharpening seem to be the two most over-done topics, and secret dovetails are the most difficult of the dovetail joints. If a person can figure out how to make a secret dovetail joint, they are a pretty good woodworker (or at least, a pretty good "joiner".)Lately, some, such as Cosman, have pushed the use of the "showy" dovetail joint, through the use of contrasting woods, and the houndstooth patterns, etc. These are fine too. Anything "works" if it helps float your boat. In woodwork, there are lots of ways to do everything, and few of them are generally accepted to be "wrong". The only wrong things I see in woodwork are:
- unsafe practices
- lousy design (eg Queen Anne legs which are too fat)
- failure of woodworkers to focus on SKILLS rather than Tools, as the most important factor in increasing one's ability to turn out great stuff.Keep those posts coming,
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,Good for you, soaking up the sun in CA with your granddaughter rather than sitting in front of a computer (what kind of example would you be setting for her?).In the type of woodwork I make, I don't have a use for the secret dovetail. I have cut them before, but I don't cut the dovetail part (shhh - that's my secret!).You are right in saying that what counts is what the buyer will pay for. I'm not sure how I'd explain it, but the best I can do is say that the buyer will pay more knowing that what they are getting is of better quality, whether perceived or real (dovetails rather than dowels, for example). That brings up the issue of perception! That's a topic in itself.Working at LV, I have learned a great deal about when to eductate the customer. I'd imagine you can say the same about your experiences. Often, the customer is willing to listen and hear what you have to say. But sometimes, the customer is so sure of themselves (regardless of whether they are even going in the right direction), there is nothing you can do to get through to them.I like Sam Maloof's philosophy in life and business. Every customer he has had (save for the first) became a friend, and he kept in touch with most. If you deliver a top-notch product, top-notch service goes with it.The biggest challenge I face with customers is judging how much they know about woodwork and not overwhelming and confusing the less well-informed with all the jargon I nonchalantly throw around. "I resaw the veneers from 4/4 stock and laminate them onto a Baltic Birch substrate with hot hide glue which I later trim with 3/8" thick edgebanding with a 1/8" Roman Ogee profile." I am working on that.David Savage's talk would indeed be interesting. I wish I could be there for that too. By the way, I enjoy his Woody Nooz, though I haven't seen anything recently... he must be prepping materials for his talk. Enjoy.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com and now http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
I am jealous. You are young, and a great woodworker, and you have a great career ahead of you. You have a good feel for people. You will do well.I believe your work at Lee Valley has taught you a lot. If I lived in Canada, I certainly would give it a try. Quick story: Lie Nielsen held a show and sale here a number of weeks ago. It was sponsored by the Washington Woodworkers Guild. I was asked to help them set up. I did. A very nice young lady, who turned out to be a highly experienced woodworker, was in charge. She started out by asking everyone their names. When she got to me, I said, without hesitation or blinking, "Rob Lee". I was wearing a Lie Nielsen temporary tattoo. She was the only one who got the joke. No one else knew who Rob Lee is. She said, "well, I hear that Tom and you have a good relationship." She laughed, and I told her my real name. It was a fun experience. They had two of each of the LN tools, and I got to use almost all of them. A LOT OF FUN. Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I've been reading a book titled "Wood - Craft, Culture, History" by Harvey Green. I found it on the discount table of a couple different book stores in the States. The real reason I bought it was that it has picture of a Maloof rocker on the front. It's actually a really interesting read. It's like a novel. If you find a copy, I encourage you to pick it up. In the last section I read, it reminded me of you and this thread:"...the aesthetics of Asian furnishings often demanded a more complex joint. An emphasis on slender and graceful legs and concealed joinery led cabinetmakers to joints whose complexity was great, yet often hidden from the viewer. Finishing differences between end grain and face grain impelled craftsmen to the miter joint, in which two or more pieces of wood are joined at forty-five degree angles so that only the face grin shows... The miter joint, if merely glued or nailed together, is weak, and almost useless if any stress is applied to it because the entire joint surface consists of end grain. The way to strengthen the miter joint's weak character is not through exhortation or encoruagement or deprivation, but by introducing face-grain glu surfaces. Cutting a mortise-and-tenon on the innder faces of the miter provides an interlocking but invisible joint that provides face-grain glue surface." Page 106.Amazon has copies of the book (used) for as little as $0.25 or (new) from $5.49. How can you go wrong? Or you can preview the book on Google.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Harvey Green's "Wood - Craft, Culture, History" sound like a good read. I will get a copy. Thank you for letting me know. It is amazing how many words are out there, and how few of them are worth reading or listening to. It is always a genuine pleasure to find a gem of wisdom.I often think of how difficult it is for a newbie in woodwork to get anything useful out of Knots. How does a newbie read 25 posts and figure out which of them are worth paying attention to. That occurred to me again the other day when I re-watched Lonnie Bird's dvd on using hand planes. Lonnie says to round the edges of the iron on a smoother plane. Cosman and Charlesworth say to crown the blade. Charlesworth has you press at five different places on the blade's tip. I went to a demo by Deneb of Lie Nielsen, and he says he just leaves all of his irons flat. Given that all of these guys are good woodworkers, what is a newbie supposed to think? I have come to the conclusion that anything works or doesn't work, depending on your skill in making it work right. Most "Teachers" FOCUS you on one method of doing something, when they should help you understand what you are trying to achieve, and teaching you how to tell when you have achieved it, and how to tell you are making progress toward achieving it, and letting you know that there are lots of methods that others have worked out to achieve the desired result. I look to Green's book to learn some wisdom. Have fun. Keep on truckin'. Someday I have to get up to Canada and apprentice to you for a while.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It's simple. Since somewhat conflicting advise comes from very credible sources, it probably means that which a novice chooses isn't vitally important. Yes, there will be differences in results but by the time the newbie becomes concerned with such differences they will have developed their own preferences.
Steve,
"It's simple. Since somewhat conflicting advise comes from very credible sources, it probably means that which a novice chooses isn't vitally important. Yes, there will be differences in results but by the time the newbie becomes concerned with such differences they will have developed their own preferences. 'I wish that was true. I believe it was true for you. BUT you were strong enough to take control of your own learning, and you became very very good. I see too many newbies who go the other direction. Instead of becoming more confident in their own abilities, as you did, they do just the opposite, and believe, more and more, that they can't learn on their own. They come to believe that there are others out there who have the knowledge and they need to go to those who know in order to get that secret information. Beginning woodworkers can quit, become mediocre craftsmen, or become excellent woodworkers. Which path they take depends on the intellectual and psychomotor capacities they were born with, the self confidence they learned as kids, and the learing experiences they get in woodworking. I assume, right from the start, that everyone of them can become another Shoene or another Maloof, and try to work with them in such a way that they learn to teach themselves, and to think for themselves. Some would rather be spoon fed. Luckily for them, there are lots of people ready to spoon feed them. Unfortunately, some (those who will never get too far) think my approach is cruel and unusual punishment. For example, recently one person asked for a thread on workbench design. My response was: there are some excellent books on this topic which are well organized, and there are countless threads in the archives of Knots on this subject, so why don't you just go to your library and get a book, and/or do some searches here on this website. In other words, I like to get people into the habit of doing some homework themselves before just putting a question out for others to answer. A while back, some kid wanted to know about setting up a website and making videos on teaching woodworking. I suggested that instead of focussing on becoming a 'star', that he learn some woodworking first. You can guess what the responses to me were. "Mel, why were you so cruel to the kid.?" I guess I am just a hard case who believes that one can achieve higher levels of learning and capability by taking responsibility for your own learning, rather than simply asking others to solve your problems. I believe that newbies who are treated like this have the greatest chance of becoming excellent woodworkers, rather than just mediocre ones. In other words, I would like more newbies to achieve the levels you have achieved.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have built about 24 work-benches to date over 38 years. Does taking responsiblity mean I don't have to re-call many of them that were built before Chris Schwartz (who was probably in grade-school when the first was built by me) published his book on work-benches that many feel they have to have before they construct something as complex as a work-bench?
Imagine all those functional benches built for 5000 years without the aid of the inter-net or published books. How did they do that is the question I would pose? ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha.. Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Sarge,
You got a great sense of humor (and a lot of real woodworking experience.) Now who was that Chris Schwartz character you were referring to? I bet that he is just David Charlesworth, writing under another name. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well, as far as hand tools I had the advantage of some wonderful tutelage in the form of a couple of years of weekly classes with Maurice Fraser at the Craft Student's League in NYC. (YWCA on Lex. at 52nd.) Sharpening, without a jig, was taught successfully on day one--to a class that included folks who had never even seen a chisel or a plane (as well as professional cabinetmakers looking to expand into hand tool use.) Hand cut dovetails began at the next session.
We learned about fettling planes. Lie Nielsen was just still a young company. (Garrett Wade carried a few by then) and we did get hands on some prototypes since Tom sent some to Maurice for comment. We also touched an infill or two from across the pond. None the less, it was the Stanleys we used--mostly Bailey's and some Bedrocks.
Maurice was very much of the straight-edge plane blade school other than a slight rounding of the corners, except of course for Jack planes. But, he was never dogmatic about such things, and would also show us how to sharpen in other ways. He was agnostic about oil stones or water stones--but did explain the problems of using sand paper for sharpening.
I guess that is the point. Dogmatism about the "right" ways tends to be discouraging. There really are lots of ways to skin the cat. Yes, it was quite useful to have the opportunity to use planes you knew were well tuned to provide a standard for comparison. But, it really isn't hard to explain enough about what needs doing, what results one could expect, and the basic techniques to achieve acceptable results.
Of course, the internet wasn't much available, though FWW did have a few articles about tuning and using planes. (Maurice wrote one of them.) Most of the used planes then, and now, had been owned by carpenters, not furniture builders, so they mostly did require fettling. But it was those fettled Stanley planes that really created the renaissance of hand tool use, the L-N and L-V have capitalized upon.
Steve,
You had a wonderful learning experience with Maurice Fraser. I wish that I could have had an opportunity like that. You mentioned that Maurice would round the corners of plane irons rather than cambering them. I saw Lonnie Bird do that in his DVD. It looks interesting, but I didn't see enough to understand. Do you just do a flat sharpening and then round the corners a bit, or do you try to do a bit of honing on those rounded tips? Have you tried both ways? Which do you prefer? I learned cambering from a book by Charlesworth. It works for me, but I would like to give the rounded-corner method a try. Thank you very much for you very nice message.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The corner rounding just a small rounding at the end of the sharpening process, and was just enough that when smoothing the corner of the blade didn't break fibers, though you still might see a track. But, that's OK because those little tracks would easily be removed, either on the next set of passes with the smooth plane, or in the final finishing with just a little work with a card scraper. If fibers are broken then removing the tracks would be much harder.
There is an excellent article on sharpening that was written by Maurice that is on Joel's Tools for Working Woods pages: http://antiquetools.com/sharp/ I strongly recommend this for anyone wishing to learn or to improve sharpening of chisel and plane blades. The small drawings are typical of the handouts prepared by Maurice that stepped through the basics of fine woodworking in full detail. They only miss his wry sense of humor that accompanied the classes.
By the focus was using planes for smoothing, and for to a degree for edge joining. After the basic introductions--dovetails--through and half blind, and hand chopped mortises and hand sawn tenons, stock preparation was mostly by power tools--jointer, planer, planer and table saw and RAS.
Steve,
I know the article in Joel's website well, and I have recommended it to many. I just didn't know who wrote it. Thank you for the information. I will try sharpening my smoother and rounding the edges slightly. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks for that link!!
That Joel dude and I share the same technique.The other day a fellow was trying to hone his block plane blade. Had the jig and waterstone out. well blue a fuse. started cussing 'I need it hollow ground" I showed him my grinder with just a tool rest. "you can't hollow grind with out some kind of slider jig", I just walked away and hid. the meltdown was ugly " don't want a blade like Uncle whoevers". Does not believe in diamond products.Wondering who he was taking shots at?So off for a one hour drive to pay some one to hollow grind a block plane blade, or find a friend with a slider thing on a grinder.
Mel you are way to way into science.. Just polish off the sharp ends an be done with it!
First attempt at this joint...trash canned. The more I worked on it, the worst it got. There MAY be a second attempt later. Right now though, not in the schedule.
If you have access to Gary Rogowski Joinery, one of the Taunton, The Complete Illustrated Guide To series, you will see some guidance on making the full blind or secret mitered dovetails. I don't remember whether that was mentioned earlier.
Edited 7/16/2009 2:00 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Mel,The message in all the differenent techniques is that there is no one right way. Do whatever works for you. I would encourage everyone to try different profiles of edges and learn from their own experience.Being someone in a teaching role at shows (as you were at the LN booth), I feel that you must first gauge the experience level of the woodworker before deciding how much to tell them. If they are already involved to the degree that most of us on Knots are, I will explain the various ways of, say, sharpening a plane iron if they are willing to listen. However, if they are completely green and don't know a bench plane from a block plane, I will focus on just one technique. That will give them the base knowledge they need to get a sharp iron as well as some of the terminology. That way they leave knowing something rather than feeling overwhelmed. If they are inclined to do so, they can further explore the mystical world of sharpening.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,
Sounds good to me.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Another hypothesis is that the complex joinery in traditional Asian woodworking that the old woodoworkers did not use glue. ---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Sir. Glue was sometimes used. I believe mostly for fitting moldings and carved trim.
No expert on the subject but some very old furniture from china did have 'selective' use of animal and rice glue.
They used glue but did not rely on the glue to hold anything together as to it's basic construction. Glue just to help hold fragile trim and such.
But, I have been wrong before.
No fight here... Just my thoughts.
I was in a small, very old, factory (China) that made, what they called 'reproductions' for sale to western markets. These reproductions were actually very old hand made furniture that were never to be sold as museum quality? I wonder but will give them the benefit of my doubts... I would guess what they called very old was hundreds not thousands of years old. More like what the rich folks used for every day use. Some of it basic and some highly carved and formal. As in mostly the old parts repaired! Still expensive but most of the old wood and details were really old!
I saw some use of hide/fish? glue there. I did ask about it.. I was told they only used the glue to hold a sliver of wood that 'fit' the old 'loose' joint in repair. In other words, a sliver of wood to fill a gap in a dovetail key, tenon or the like. I was also told that some glue was used to repair/strengthen some of the major joints such as a key-way for a sliding dovetail joint. I 'think' they were telling me that some dovetails keys were actually made (in the old days) as a 'butterfly shaped spline'. In other words, the dovetail KEY fit it's mates on each side...
Maybe the 'KEY' was made to fit two parts made two different workers that were a bit different in size..
Sorry for rambling on....
Chris,That too. Miters don't usually fare too well without glue.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
One "trick" you MIGHT try and still call it "secret joint". A sliding dovetail in a miter joint that "stops" just short of being all the way through the "top" of the joint. That way it doesn't show through until you look underneath the joint. As in, say bracket feet?
Clever. I've never heard of, seen, or thought of that before.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I guess that makes it a real secret joint. You have to cut one side a bit long. Both sides of the miter are cut first, then the sliding dovetail is milled in. If you "stop" the slot short of the top of the joint, the dovetail remains "hidden", but the joint "looks" just like a "regular" miter joint. To assemble, just slide the parts together with a little glue. Lot easier than trying to hide a spline.
Add M&T to your miters and Bob is your uncle.
Chris
---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Neat animation.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
As I already stated.. I used them on two occasions in the last year and a half on chest of drawer bases that were mitered. The base has to support an oak 6 drawer chest in one case and a 5 drawer case in the other. I need more than glue to hold the miters together in these cases and splines would not fit the agenda for the style.
So.. as I stated earlier... they have their place to add strenght to a miter line that doesn't show if cut properly making the piece appear to flow around the corner without any seen way of attachment other than the very tight miter line and you have to look close to see it.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 6/28/2009 8:39 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
obviously, secret dovetails have an important role in fine woodwork. Some people like the understated elegance of secret dovetails. Others,like Cosman, like to make dovetails overly obvious. My favorite woodworker is Kintaro Yazawa, whose joinery is incredible. My con ersation with Chris was exploring a semi-humorous subtopic which has some serious aspects.
Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I would question just how important a role they do have Mel.. as the vast majority of WW's have never even heard of them. And the few that have probably have not used them so..... I will leave it at they have a distinct place and purpose but are seldom exploited IMO. :>)
Back to the shop...
Sarge..
The secret miter is the most difficult DT with no doubt IMO. I learned to cut them when Ian Kirby had a WW'ing School about 16 miles up the road from me in the mid 80's. I believe Roc posted his book on DT's that also describes them.
I have used them on base-boards for two bedroom chest of drawers I have done in the last year and a half. The base-boards had to support quite a bit of weight with the chest and drawers done in oak. Using an exposed spline to re-enforce the miter was not an option as the spline would have been out of place for the type of chest they were.
So... a very positive joint holding miters firmly together but.. a very time consuming joint if you don't cut them everyday as they are a PITA to do IMO. A lot of work that won't actually be seen but serving a very valuable purpose. In my case I love to cut DT's but will go out of my way to avoid the necessity of secret miter DT's even though I am not in a hurry with amateur status as there are no dead-lines.
Sarge..
Sarge,
I am not in a hurry with amateur status as there are no dead-lines.
Don't say that too loud or you might find yer supper at the top of the stairs. :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 6/22/2009 8:52 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Finding it up there is almost a fact of life at this point, Bob. :>) I should finish up a desk-hutch in the next few days and another week of finish to cure. By July 1 that will be 8 or nine large (lost count) carcasses in 21 months and I'm taking a summer break frankly. At this point I almost feel like I'm running on auto-pilot.
Regards...
Sarge..
I've seen Roy Underhill do these, but he does them too fast to learn how.
I will start off that I just love watching Roy work on TV . He is great. But I say his 'gift of gab' is way better than his work on TV.. I am SURE he can do better while off camera..
I do not know what show it was but I know I SAW .. Blood stains on some Oak on TV he was working on! AND a bandage on one of his fingers! I loved it.. Been there!
A half hour show doesn't leave much time to work on things. Roy would have about four or five pieces in different "stages" to show how he does something. As for the "boogered" fingers, it's the "price" of going too fast. About like reading a "cue-card" and not watching the edge of your chisel. At least Roy has all of his fingers yet. As for that secret dovetail, it would make simple miter joints stronger, as in some box items. Bracket feet would benefit the most with this joint. A lot of work? Somethings are worth a little more work. I think there MIGHT be a way to use a dovetail jig to do the pins and tails, then just pare to the line for the bevel?
Whitedog,>use a dovetail jig to do the pins and tails, then just pare to the line for the bevel?Excellent idea ! I bet Norm has an episode where he did this. Sounds familiar.On the other hand the fit up doesn't have to be as nice as a visible joint so one can go a bit faster if using hand tools and still get adequate strength. Especially if epoxied. I have no experience with dovetail jigs but I understand there is some set up time and material expended getting things dialed in.The problem for me is since I thickness by hand everything is a bit, shall we say, free form. I believe if my boards were not exact in thickness from one to another and end to end that it would cause problems in the out come of the machine cut dovetails. The silly thing in my case is making up a test board to try the dovetail jig would take too much time.I know . . . I must be an unrealistic wood worker ; more interested in exercise than production. I will get a thicknesser some day.Also don't forget the area of the joint all along the point of the miter must be done by hand using a shoulder plane.I don't care for the appearance of machine cut dovetails but for the well equipped machine tool wood worker, and in a hidden joint, they would be just what the doctor ordered ! Excellent idea !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 6/23/2009 2:51 pm by roc
Edited 6/23/2009 2:51 pm by roc
Using a 1/2" dovetail bit, one COULD cut the dovetails themselves on the jig. Just leave the miter area alone. A 1/2" bit would leavw about a 1/4" "lip" for the miter joint. Cut a 1/2" x 1/4" rebate ( a "proper term") and then cut the dovetails, leaving the "outside" edge to be mitered. This would be done with a dovetail ( or something similar) saw. Pare to fit the miter joint and it should be fine. Which would hold up better in say< bracket feet, a "biscuit joint" or a "secret" miter joint? Someday, I'm going to try these out, how knows, maybe I MIGHT like them. We'll see.
Now, I've read through all of this thread (to here) and this is the conclusion I have come to in my own, twisted, little, mind. It would seem to me that a lot of you have gone on about why one either would or would not use the hidden dovetail joint. And that is all fine and good. But, I think, the question was more of a "I want to know how for the sake of knowing" kind of thing. I could well be wrong on that point. I have the joy of being wrong all the time ;)
And I can see that the information ask for, has been given... many times over. And that is ALL GOOD! But all the adage and tangents along the way have brought to mind a question of my own. (and here is where I, myself, digress from the topic at hand) If strength is a concern, and sometimes it is a major concern, and a clean line through the joint is also necessary ... Could one not just do a blind spline in the mitered joint and cut the spline so that its grain goes across the joint instead of running the length of the joint? Because most of the splined miters I've seen are showing end grain at the exposed edge of the joint. To me, that seems to only add more gluing surface and not take advantage of the strength of the wood the spline is cut from. Or am I way out in left field with this line of thought? I don't claim to know a lot about joinery because most of you have had a lot more experience at it then me. I just do the best I can with what I have to work with.
Hope the beginning didn't ruffle any feather.
Bill
Edited 7/1/2009 5:42 pm ET by Beckum
I'm not Whitedog but... I do use secret miters on occasion as mentioned. Your suggestion would work fine on a miter if.. if.. you are not going to depend on it to support a lot of weight IMO. In the two cases I mentioned I used them we are talking about a 5 drawer and 6 drawer bedroom chest made of oak.
Oak is heavy as you know and then "she" fills the drawers with God know's what as women are unpredictable.. as you probably also know. So.... I personally wouldn't trust a single spline crossing as you mentioned in this case. I chose the secret miter DT because I learned to cut them from Ian Kirby (few probably use them or have even heard of them for that matter) a while back and I like the idea of having a lock joint before the glue is even added. Then add glue to say 6 DT's on each mitered corner before you lock the DT's and miter together and you have a double treat with strenght.
So... I use them for a purpose when called for even though I hate to cut them. I love to cut DT's but these add another twist to cutting DT's. But.... given my choices this is the way I would go personally. Someone else might prefer lag bolts... pocket screws.. whatever.. I can't really say but that is their personal choice to make. :>)Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
"I learned to cut them from Ian Kirby (few probably use them or have even heard of them for that matter)"
I find that an interesting statement Sarge. I've always thought of secret mitred dovetails, secret lapped dovetails and secret double lapped dovetails as being well known versions of the joint, even if they are not used frequently.
The reason for their infrequent use is primarily price and the need for a skilled worker able to execute the joint accurately and efficiently; they are charged at 6 hours per linear foot or part foot in my pricing system, but without well developed hand woodworking skills you might as well forget it and just do a simple splined, biscuited, dowelled, etc mitre. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
("few probably use them or have even heard of them for that matter)"...
Probably a blanket statement on my part as far as "even heard of them for that matter", Richard. I monitor the gallery in three sites and have for almost 3 years. I don't believe I have seen a case where anyone used them with the exception of two pieces I posted here and two other sites. One person mentioned their use here when I did state I had used them. It left me with a feeling of either no interest or they didn't really know what I was referring too?
Before this thread I have heard little mention of them either on sites... woodworking shows.. guilds.. clubs.. etc. But... I have heard wide mention of which is the best DT jig to buy.. which video to learn to cut DT's.. etc. But.... it's a wide world and perhaps I am mistaken on the "never heard of them" as I only inhabit a small portion of it and without some type of world-wide poll cannot say "never heard" with any real based facts.
I agree that a commercial concern would not use them as they do take time and that is not on your side even if they did know how to cut them. A hobbyist as me has the time but again even if one knew how... the joint is hidden and it is not a simple task as with a through DT. Most hobbyist use jigs with power from my "local" observation. Somewhere down the road they might decide I am going to learn to cut them by hand. But... I believe personally the hobbyist first thoughts and maybe final thoughts on that would center on through and half blind.
So... you are probably correct in they may be known on a larger scale but few use them because of time consumption or simply they just don't know how and doubtfully will take the time to find out. If someone considers it a nuisance to change from a high tooth ATB blade to a low tooth flat cut to meet a specific need... I doubt they would bother to take the time to learn to cut or use a joint that someone can't see which draws no oh's and ah's. ha. ha...
So.. I withdraw the statement about "probably never even heard of them" as I simply "don't know" that but.. stand by the "few use them" regardless of reason from my observations.
Regards..
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/2/2009 10:59 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Uh-oh... is italics stuck on now?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)
- Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Yep.... it was along with Font Size when I posted to Richard... seems to be OK now. I think the wise procedure would to be to bring in a Priest to do an exocism. There seems to be a devils disciple that if finding my computer a nice place to stake a claim.. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/2/2009 2:48 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
>There seems to be a devils disciple that is finding my computer a nice place to stake a claim.. :>)Oh . . . sorry. My fault. Occupational hazard. That tends to happen when I get going with the gluevoodoo and the three legged chickens.Just watch some old footage of the Osmonds on YouTube and it tends to drive the devil disciple right out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD45zl7L5Io&feature=relatedYah. that otta do it.( : }Not sure how the woodworkers in Salem handled this but I bet it wasn't pretty.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-gThey didn't have computers you say. The disturbance used to manifest its self as a reversal of slant while writing often causing the letters to appear reversed as well; caused no end of troubles. Why I have seen it manifest as random slant direction. Going back and forth all over the place. Practically incurable until the Osmonds began recording records.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/6/2009 11:36 pm by roc
Normally my answer to demons is to unload a clip from a .45 Auto into them but... I can't see demons inside a computer so I will rely on the standard exorcism. I found a 2 for the price of 1 4th of July sale so things are looking up. :>)
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/7/2009 12:32 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
>standard exorcism. I found a 2 for the price of 1 4th of July sale so things are looking up. :>)Oooo sounds like it might be hard on circuit boards and stuff. Oh what the heck. Go for it !
Be sure to record and post video please): )
rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I never could hit anything with my Army .45 Auto side arm... M1911 pistol? It was very old when I received it.. Maybe a 1900'model and worn out? Fun to shoot but I missed most everything using it.. I just had to weat it for Officer-Of-The-Day while on night guard duty.. Why Officer-Of-Day if I only did it at nighttime?
I got expert on .45 'Thompson' , .30, .50 machine guns and my old BAR! Good with my M1 up to about 400 yards but after that I was very bad! Never could get the sights set well on my M1. I even tried spitting on them like Sargent York. But then again he had a old Springfield?
And because I was Expert.. If I had known at the time I would have missed a few targets.. This wepon for stockade duty.. I loved it but thank god I never had to use it on anybody..
http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2006/10/remington-model-11-very-belligerent_29.html
I use to have my father-in-laws old service .45 pistol. I think it was called a Colt DA. Not sure.. I believe it was used by the Illinois State Police back in the 30's but not sure.. Way to big for my small hand..
But I gave up all my guns when I had my first child.. Enought to worry about with the child...
It's obvious to me Will... that if spittin' on the sights didn't get you on target... they were issueing you a bad batch of ammo. ha.. ha...
Off to the shop after the rain to cut holes in a perfectly good piece I just finished so electrical wires will pass. I hate putting holes in furniture for wires. If they're so smart with all this new electronic stuff why not just make it cordless? I know someone will pop in and tell me they do but... I probably can't afford it anyway. :>)
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/8/2009 1:12 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
> Just watch some old footage of the Osmonds...
¡¡¡¡sǝʎǝ ʎɯ ¡¡¡ǝǝǝǝǝ!!!ɐ
ʌǝp/
>¡¡¡¡sǝʎǝ ʎɯ ¡¡¡ǝǝǝǝǝ!!!ɐ[ cool ]Oh my god ! What have I done ! ! ! I meant play it to drive out the bogie not to actually watch it your self ! ! !Who would have thought you might actually watch it ! ? ! ? !I will never forgive myself.woe is me ( and you apparently )Now listen to me very carefully before it takes you entirely.1. Go to your music supplier of choice.2. Obtain anything by Skinny Puppy DO YOU UNDERSTAND ? SKINNY PUPPY If you are too far gone to decide begin with the album Aint It Dead Yet and then Too Dark Park
( no I don't listen to this for fun. I was introduced to this by a coworker in a similar situation ) Time is short ! Put on the album and proceed to step three. HURRY MAN HURRY ! ! !3. Listen for exactly three hours, thirty three minutes, and three seconds. All the while have your closest friends and family make a circle around you and drink continuously of beer and other friendly spirits.It is the only way . . . DO YOU UNDERSTAND ?
dev ! ! ! . . . DO YOU UNDERSTAND ?Oh god I will never forgive my self ! This is what I get for dabbling in the dark glue arts.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
ROC..
Do you have a link for Puppy Love by ZZ-TOPS?
Sarge, you are correct in that the joint isn't used frequently. Perhaps of interest is I recently created a new page at my website that has a piece of furniture where I did use the secret mitred dovetail. I've done better executed versions since the one in this example, but my excuse is that it was a very long time ago. Yes; I think I'll stick to that story, ha, ha. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Perhaps it's my eyes but I don't see what's wrong with your joint?
You know the old trick to close a sloppy miter joint is to run the shank of a screw driver over the edge so as to draw the wood down onto the edge.
For what my opinion is worth I think you do good work!
Chaim
It's a bit gappy at the end of the mitre, particularly at the left side as seen in the snap, and there's a bit of chip out here and there as evidenced by the darker brown filler showing in places. Structurally it's sound, but the execution isn't as good as it really should be.
That old trick you mention of the screwdriver is what I know as 'bishoping', but I don't know why. It only partially works in my experience. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
I always thought 'bishoping' was hitting the endgrain of the tails or pins to expand them to fill a gap in the joint on a through dovetail joint.Or alternatively:"In common work, especially in soft timbers, many workers allow the pins of a drawer back to run through the sides about 1⁄16 in. and hammer down the pins of the dovetail. This is called "bishoping the dovetails," and is unnecessary if the work be properly made and fitted."Or Ernest Joyce:"On no account should a dovetail be 'bishoped' i.e. hit with a hammer to spread the fibres and tighten up a slack fit. If there are gaps between the tails and pins, and it can happen to anyone, then it is perfectly legitimate to drive in small wedges..."
Edited 7/7/2009 5:41 pm ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
In both the quotes you gave the end result is mushing up and smashing the wood fibres to fill a hole. I've not come across a strict limiting of the term to mean filling any gaps that might develop in through dovetailed joints because of less than perfect execution.
So bishoping mitres means essentially the same thing to me-- smashing and distorting the grain to disguise a gap. It could mean something more specific to someone else I guess. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard..
I can make perfect fitting miters of any angle or compound angle.
I will not tell you how many sticks it takes to get it right...
Thanks for the tip you added a page to your web-site, Richard. I usually take a look just to see if something has been added every couple of months as I do enjoy some of your tutourials especially. I've just been extremely busy the last few months though. That miter looks pretty good actually IMO and especially considering it has had 25 years to gap under god knows what conditions it might have been subjected to.
Question while I have your attention... I am just wrapping up a computer desk-hutch where I modified a G. Stickley 8 leg hunt-board by eliminating the center row of drawers to accomodate a keyboard and legs for the desk portion. My question though concerns the hutch portion above it which is a modification of a Liberty & Co. design from England during the A & C period.
Apparently Liberty & Co. was an English department store that sold furniture among a host of other things. But.. according to the info I can find.. quite a number of English (possibly even other nationalities for that matter as nobody knows for sure) designers actually did the designs but were not named as all the furniture they sold was simply branded Liberty & Co.
I did catch wind that the Liberty & Co. might still exist selling fine draperies. Have you personally heard of Liberty & Co. and do you know if they might still exist in some form. If so.. I would like to contact them to see if they might have records from yester-year that might idenify some of their furniture designers of that period. I have become quite interested in the A & C style but far beyond G & G and Mission as the designer list of that period is really quite extensive and goes far beyond the G & G.. Stickley.. Mission most here in the U.S. think of when the subject comes up.
If you can be of help on that.. I would certainly be most appreciative. PS.. spell-check temporarily out so... bear with any spelling errors.
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/5/2009 5:03 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hi Sarge.
Liberty still has its own website, under Liberty and co., but there's more information on this site: http://www.achome.co.uk/movements/firms.htm
The guy gives his e-mail address on his home page somewhere, and seems willing to answer questions.
Jim
I wonder IF anybody has put out a "how-to" on these joints? Maybe something one could "print out" to use on a project? FWW put out a "special edition" years ago on "Period Furniture". Not sure where my copy is now, but one woodworker in that edition swore by them as the ONLY way to do corner joints.
Nearly every good technical book on the subject of wooden furniture making describes the layout and execution of the joint whitedog. Ernest Joyce's veritable tome, The Technique of Furniture Making does so for example. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
The gentleman that I learned the secret miter DT from is Ian Kirby who had a WW'ing school in Cummings, Ga. about 15 miles up the road from me in the mid 80's for a short time before moving on to California I believe. He has a small 150 pg. book for around $7.50 I believe on Amazon called The Complete Dovetail.. Handmade Furniture's Signature Joint strictly devoted to DT's.
I purposely purchased the book to use as a reference for secret miter DT's. They are a pain to cut as you are dealing with two forces.. the DT themselves which much be precise to deliver a tight miter line and the miter cut itself. And they are not something I use everyday (probably no one does?) and to me like cutting crown molding... complex enough I have to give some thought as to the proper sequence of steps as I don't do them often. You ruin a component and have to take time to replace it for another try with a mental or physical mistake.
You might consider the book as it's cheap and Ian has a very simple.. no nonsense approach to cutting them.
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/6/2009 10:53 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Edited 7/6/2009 10:56 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge..
Perfect reply..
'and to me like cutting crown molding... complex enough I have to give some thought as to the proper sequence of steps'
AND.. when one end is perfect. You have to do the other end to be the same fit along the length! Much harder!
Edited 7/6/2009 11:44 am by WillGeorge
In the case of crown moulding... the second step is the one that will confuse me in a heart-beat. Fortunatley I don't have to deal with much crown these days as the house is done and I don't do any period pieces that might require it. Crown on my furniture would be like putting a lush leather interior in my working pick-up truck... out of place. :<)
Regards for the day, Will...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
I do some but not much crown moldings. I always use my sample I made when I first tried to cut crown.. They are marked with what is up and down and what goes to the fence... Amazing how you can forget what is what cutting it. If I get confused I grab the samples and off I go...
I avoid it if at all possible, Will. That's much easier to do since departing my first wife who is a very cosmopolitan girl. She now lives at Atlanta Country Club with here crown moulding and the Queen Anne I built for her years ago. I now live in a more rural influenced area where crown is not the center of the universe and where simple but very functional gets the nod. ha... ha...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/8/2009 11:24 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Thanks Jim... a wealth of info in that one link alone. Off that list I notice not all are furniture oriented but I was familar with Heal & Son which I have a few pics of some their designs. I'm going to book-mark that link for future reference.
Regards...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Liberty & Co are still in business in Regent Street, London. There are quite a few online histories of the company; it would be one place to start your research.
I'm not sure how accomodating they would be if you approached them with your questions. I suspect they might be co-operative, but that's just a guess. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Thanks Richard. I thought I had read they were in business still. I can see no harm in asking. The worse scenario would be a simple we don't have any history or no reply. I suppose they could reply accusing me of being another American meddling in another countries affairs but... I doubt it as my reputation for telling someone to "kiss my southern arse" has crossed international borders at this point. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Thanks again for the reply...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Sir..
Oak and Sycamore Drinks CabinetI love it.. I like drinks and wood!
That's two us then WillG, ha, ha. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Don't get me wrong here, I don't do dovetails for no other reason then I haven't taken the time to practice them and learn how to make them right. I do put together some pretty sharp miter joints and I like a blind spline. What I don't like about most of the splined miters I see is the fact the grain of the spline runs up / down the miter. I cut mine so the grain of the spline runs across the miter and it truly does make for a stronger joint. Not near as strong as the hidden dovetail should be, but stronger then a regular miter or a "normal" splined miter. I do more repair/refinishing work on furniture then building so I come here to learn. Sometimes, my questions/thoughts/observations may seem a bit off the wall, but that's how I figure things out. And you, Sarge, are one of the ones that seem to give better quality advice then some of the others. You do that by trying to get as much information out of the poster as you can before you state your thoughts. And I have a lot of respect for that approach.Bill
Thanks for the compliment, Bill. I totally agree that doing the spline in the manner you do it is going to give much more strenght to the miter than the vertical. Showing splines look good on small boxes with miters also and especially using contrasting wood as ebony.. purpleheart.. etc. You will see them done in the manner you mention if I am interpreting your method correctly.
Back to finishing the grass at pushing 90* degree's in the Georgia sun. My wife would have made a good Georgia Chain Gang foreman back in the days of leg irons and road gangs. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Edited 7/2/2009 2:49 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sounds like you better take another look down there by your feet :p
My wife would have made a good Georgia Chain Gang foreman back in the days of leg irons and road gangs. LOL LOL LOL
And I bet she kept you inline! And I bet you loved her anyway! I hope you did...
As straight as an arrow.. when she's looking anyway. I'm afraid she has my number and has had it for quite a while.... LOL
Have a good holiday, Will... Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
I'm afraid she has my number and has had it for quite a while.... I would bet she loves you just the same.. She is just A WOMAN TRYING TO GET EVEN!
The "nice" part about these DTs is the fact that you get a lot more glue surface to work with than a simple miter joint ( even with a spline or two), plus the "locking" feature of dovetails. " All that work, and nobody will notice". The one that MAKES this joint notices. Maybe a source of pride in one's work. There WAS one type out there that MIGHT be cheating: a "sliding dovetail" cut into a miter joint. Try THAT one on your dovetail jig.
"I want to know how for the sake of knowing" kind of thing. I could well be wrong on that point. I have the joy of being wrong all the time ;)
Perfect thought. I'm in the next parallel universe with the same mind. I'm by the 'string' to the right of you and two down.
I have only made one project using them. If the miter is good you can hide all sorts of your practice carving faults and the joint still works!
Fun to make but alot of work.
As to.. ruffle any feather.... none of mine mine but even if it did I needed some of the dander shaken out of mine ;>)
As to hidden splines.. I use them sometimes. Great for little boxes and sometimes for cabinets. For large cabinets I 'think' the hidden spline helps alot. AND it sure helps during glueups keeping things aligned and open time for the glue not wasted trying to fit corner clamps Etc.! What I call 'edge splines' (showing end grain) I rarely use.
But then again I do strange things, for strange reasons, all the time...
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