? about small shapers and large routers
I picked up an old small 3/4 hp delta shaper and have used it very little. It has a shaft that is 1/2″ and the part that drops into the bearing is pretty short. I have doubts about how large a cutter I can put on it. Say if I wanted to do cabinet doors with raised panels.
The big 3 1/4 hp Triton router is on sale right now so I could buy that.
In Craigslist there is a used but like new Jet # JWS-18HO 1 hp shaper.
I didn’t pay much for the Delta and can sell it. My main concern is that it can’t carry the bigger cutters I might use. I included pics of the Delta. There is one pic of the shaft that drops into a bearing. the part that sits in the bearing is pretty short. I’m concerned that with large cutters I will get chatter. I don’t have the room for two shapers. I could keep the Delta which I really like for smaller stuff and get the Triton for big cutters. I’m only going to use raised panel cutters once in a great while.
I’m not concerned so much about the hp as to if the bearing and shaft design can carry lager cutters.
Should I get the Triton for the large cutters and keep the Delta. Should I get the Jet shaper? Will the small Jet shaper handle large raised panel cutters?
Edited 1/2/2009 12:36 pm ET by popawheelie
Edited 1/2/2009 12:37 pm ET by popawheelie
Replies
You won't get chatter, the drawbolt holds the shaft tight in the taper.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
I have a Jet 3 HP and a table-mounted Triton 2 1/4 (hobbyist use). My router table gets 80% of the use. At the time, Triton only offered above-the-table height adjustments on the 2 1/4 router... so you may want to check that.
Did your shaper come with a router collet? If so, buy a 1/2" router bit and give it a try on the shaper. If it doesn't work, you'll still be able to use it in a router!
Height doesn't look like it will be a problem on your shaper and I would think that a 3/4 HP shaper would come pretty close to the power of a 2 1/4 HP router... but I'm just guessing. Yea, its not the power of a 3 1/4 router... but it is pretty close.
Do you already have a router and router table already? If not, I'd probably lean towards the router... assuming you don't have too much invested in shaper bits.
pop,
I have the same shaper, and use it frequently. There are a large number of 1/2 bore cutters available (or at least used to be) from Rockwell/Delta and Sears.
I used to use a three wing panel-raising bit on it, with the 1/2" bushing that came with the cutter, Worked many door panels, 1/2 to 3/4 " thick. One day Iwas using the panel-raising cutter to bevel the edge of a fairly thick (1-1/2") piece of pine stock, slowly feeding, with a light cut, when the shaft (spindle) of the shaper sprung or bent, causing the cutter to wobble wildly. I'm sure raising the cutter so high on the spindle is what caused the problem. Mounting it low as possible on the spindle had given no problems before on door panels. But, I raise panels now with a 3/4" spindle on another shaper.
Ray
The Jet has a 3/4" spindle. The Delta has 1/2" spindle. I'm leary of using a 1/2 x 3/4 spacer on the Delta.
From what I've read in the past about machines is you don't go over capacity. E.I. if the machine has a 1/2" spiundle that is the biggest cutter you want to put on it.
Most shaper cutters I've seen are 3/4" bore. There's a good reason for that.
The Delta doesn't have a collet adapter for a router bit.
I'm going to go look at the Jet. If he has all the parts and collets I'll probably get it.
thanks!
I've used 3/4" cutters when I had a Grizz 1/2" spindle shaper..no problems whatsoever...those bushings work well,and it increases the available cutters to use. I made raised panels on that lil thing and they all turned out ok by my standards. I now have a larger shaper,but mostly use router bits in it, cuz it's easier for me to move the wood, than a router..I get better results. and I have no room for two seperate tabled cutting machines, so the shaper does 2 jobs.
Routers were not designed to swing large cutters. If that is what you anticipate for majority of use, I recommend a shaper.
If it is an occasional large cutter, first be ABSOLUTELY sure the low speed on your router does not exceed the recommended tip speed on the cutter. NEVER violate this principle.!!!!!
Then if you are within the speed range of the cutter, you must use take multiple passes.
Greg
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Exo 35:30-35
I bought the Jet shaper. It didn't have all the accessories though. I think it just has the 1/4" router bit collet in it.
I really like it when I buy a tool to have all the accessories with it. Oh well.
Should I just go to Jet for the accessories? I'd like the 1/2" router bit collet. The 3/4" spindle and some more hold downs. It only had one hold down arm with nothing on it.
Hey there, I'm hoping that 13 years has been enough time to have found the answer to this question ;). I just had a Jet # JWS-18HO fall into my lap. Mine has a 1/2 inch spindle, and no router bit collets. I don't have any cutters. The collets that JET sells are by a wide margin more expensive that the ones from other companies. Did you ever find out if they are interchangeable??
13 years later, how are you liking that machine?
I think you should sell me that Delta. It probably isn't worth much more than its scrap metal worth but I'll buy it anyways. Those arn't good tools anyway, full of that American made cast iron and motors. If you want I'll just take it for free, what do you say?
LOL, I will be selling it. But I'm in Colorado. I think I bought it for $200. It was a while ago.
Can you get an adaptor for a 1/2" router bit for the Delta?
Edited 1/2/2009 9:50 pm ET by popawheelie
Edited 1/2/2009 9:51 pm ET by popawheelie
I believe they make a router bit shaft for it but I'm not sure. I know that they make them for the heavy duty shapers and it seems that i've seen them for light duty shapers on ebay.
Great little shaper isn't it?
They're still copying that baby in the Orient.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Here's Shop Fox's copy.
$429.99 at Amazon
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Pop:
That Delta is a good machine but only as good as the cutters and block sets that you have for it. There are many, but you should only fit those that are designed for it-i.e those made by Delta with 1/2 inch bore. That machine also came equipped with two other spindles: a 5/16 ths and a stubby1/2 inch. With a 3450rpm motor the spindle speed was 9000rpm - plenty for three wing sets and the bigger diameter heads.
You don't say what cutters you have, but if you have a good selection it is a mighty versatile shaper-how do you think all those tight mouldings for clocks etc were churned out?
They also made ####slotted collar block which had a safety feature-providing you used their bevelled steel stock you could make almost any cutter under the sun.
If I were you I would not spurn it - I am sure you could find all the cutters that were made for it for a song, as this machine fell victim to the "bigger is best" syndrome.
Have a look at just some of the cutters that were made for it....
There is no need to be concerned about the shortness of the part of the spindle which fits into the bearing- it is a keyed taper and securely centred and held by a draw bolt-be sure to have that draw bolt! The actual 1/2 inch shaft which carries cutter heads etc is quite long but very tough, but it is good practice to always mount bigger cutter blocks as low as possible (they made it long to enable use of light weigth items like sanding heads etc). The bearing design is very robust.
I did run cutter heads on mine that I sleeved down from 3/4 inch-but only those smaller ones, and I would not advise it unless you are savvy with this sort of thing.I also ran Inca stuff which was aloominoom bodied and therefore light.
I have seen many copies of that machine but they do not match the original-and we have no safe way of knowing if they used spagetti for the spindle material or not. I now only have the bigger Delta shaper which happily has three interchangeable spindles :1/2 , 3/4 and 1 inch-that was the only reason for parting with the small Delta shaper.
first off, thank you for your post.
I understand the attraction to older American machinery. I am fond of this machine as well.
But, I can't put router bits in it. Inexpensive carbide router bits are readily available these days. I can buy any number of 1/2" shanked router bits including raised panel bits but they won't go in this machine. This is extremely limiting to the use of this machine.
Many of the things that most people call progress in the U.S. I don't buy into. But one of the advancements I see as good is inexpensive carbide bits and cutters.
About the cutter chart you showed. Are the cutters carbide tipped? From what I've read and experienced if you are building with hardwoods you need carbide.
You mentioned all those "tight tight mouldings for clocks etc were churned out?
Were all those mouldings softwoods that were stained dark to look like hardwoods?
From what I understand the standard has changed. People expect things to be made out of either domestic hardwoods or exotic imported hardwoods. This is the expectation. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. And high speed steel won't stand up to it.
I do think I could swing 3/4" carbide cutters with care but I still can't swing 1/2" router bits.
I'm not going to sell the Delta any time soon. I bought the Jet but it only came with a 1/4" router collet. I still need to find a 1/2" collet and a 3/4" spindle assembly.
The Jet has two pulleys under it. I suppose the smaller one is for small dia bits/cutters.
Edited 1/4/2009 11:06 am ET by popawheelie
Yes, the need to run big diameter carbide cutters is a strong argument,and you can't mount them in that machine unless you go to the impractical hassle of having a suitable spindle made up.
The Delta cutters shown there are not carbide, but still able to do a good job on most hardwoods which are not excessively abrasive, in my experience. Sure, one has to sharpen and grind them often, but when sharp they cut very smoothly.
I was talking about tight clock mouldings etc using woods such as Cherry , Oak and other domestic American woods-same as I used that machine for.I think it is incorrect to believe that HSS won't stand up to many hardwoods in general, but there are a few exceptions.
The smaller driven pulley would indeed be for a second faster speed, and I did actually modify mine for that .
From what I know the Jet is well regarded and the spindles are not made of spagetti (;).Philip Marcou
I didn't mean to bust your chops. I just can't have two machines. I think?
When they designed the Delta they probably didn't see down the road when carbide would be so inexpensive and routers so popular. They both changed woodworking for small shops.
Shapers and routers both have their place.
Keep in mind that you can run a shaper all day long. I'd like to see how long a router could keep running. On the other hand, I'd like to see someone take a shaper to the job-site or over to their friends house to help with a small project :0)
Oh, and I too recommend the HSS insert cutters. They are a great way to increase your collection without breaking the bank ($250 for the head and $50, each, for the knife sets). Mine is the steel one from Amana. Not cheap... but compare that to the cost of three carbide rail/stile cutters ($250 or more, each). However, the rest of my cutters are carbide.
I started with a Sears Craftsman 1/2 inch shaper (25 years ago, LOL), used a bunch of 1/2 inch HSS cutters with OK results. Tried a 5 inch panel raising cutter with the 3/4 inch bushing. This setup, despite shop made guards, scared me. I had to upgrade the 1 hp motor to 2 hp to get that cutter up to speed with all but the lightest cuts. Wanting to do more raised panels and cope and stick joints, I bought a 2 hp Jet Shaper. Rationale was limited shop space. I was unhappy with that machine, underpowered, poor fence and too tippy. bought a used 3 hp full size Delta shaper, and I am now happy.
I also have a router table with a 2 hp PC router that I use a lot, but I still go to the shaper for many tasks, especially door making.
Opinion portion of post: with a good router table set up you can do most work. The only reason to get a shaper is big cutters, so you need a big (3hp min) shaper. Anything smaller is redundant to the router table (except for shops that set up multiple shapers for production work, etc.)
I can certainly see your point of view as well as others from a pragmatic outlook.
I'm at the point where I don't know if I even need a small shaper. Money is tight and I barely can get the shop up and running.
I've had so many setbacks I don't even want to think about it. So getting into even a small shaper at this point is a really good thing.
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