Just thought I would share a new “honing oil” that I accidentally found out gives better than average cutting speed while using Norton India, black Arkansas, translucent Arkansas stones as well as DMT diamond stones. Its “Pledge” furniture polish. I’ve got the citrus formulation and I spray it right on the india stone or diamond stone then start honing my plane blade on that. It is very smooth and silky, yet, it still allows for a better than average cutting action approaching the speed of Japanese waterstones but without fear of rust associated with waterstones. Its a bit messy so you need to use ample amount of rags or paper towels and clean the stone frequently because the furniture polish quickly turns black from all the material removed.
I thought I should share this tip because frequently on this forum (and elsewhere) I’ve seen discussion threads about the downside of oilstones. The biggest one is how slow cutting it is. Personally I use Japanese waterstones for most of my user tools because its fastest and I get razor sharp edges more predictably.
Oilstones have their place though for restoration of antique tools where you are acting more like an archeologist gradually removing oxidation in a controllable way. For example: while at work recently I was bragging about my hand tool exploits of how I got wonderful results hand planing construction pine (into furniture worthy wood) using my garage sale Stanley planes. One of the ladies brought in her old stanley 220 block plane and requested a tune-up. It has really dark and rusty and dirty but as I set out to take away the layers I found the blade is a really nice SW (sweetheart) and that overall the 220 is still a very sweet utilitarian tool.
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Replies
Doesn't Pledge contain silicone?
If it does you'll probably regret turning it loose in your shop.
Lee
I'll have to check the label about silicon and post what I find out. But even if it does contain silicon, couldn't I just thoroughly wipe down the tool with some other solvent (like mineral spirits) when I'm finished?
Silicone may never trouble you. On the other hand you may soon be posting in the finishing folder about problems with fish eye. Silicone can cause fits when it's time to finish a piece. It's quite impossible to see it before hand and really difficult to remove once discovered. Stains and finishes pool around silicone and it's generally the first culprit when fish eye is a problem.I hope it doesn't trouble you but you may condiser giving your can of Pledge to the garbage man and sticking with honing oil. Silicone has it's place but a woodworking shop is not one of them. Perhaps someone here will have something good to report about it.Lee
Hmm sprocket? Silicone, if it exists in Pledge polish is best kept well away from woodworking that requires a film forming finish at the end.
It causes all sorts of nasties in the finishing process, such as crawling, cissing, fish-eye, dimpling, non-adhesion, etc..
I'm not sure that white spirits (aka mineral spirits) will entirely remove every trace of the stuff-- well, my experience is that it doesn't. I think I'd stick to using something like 3-in-1 oil for lubricating my oil-stones, if I used them.
Silicon, on the other hand, doesn't bother me at all in a woodworking context. Slainte.RJFurniture
My experience in the laboratory is that silicone is only removed by strong caustic, or basic (pH10) detergents. Not something I generall want around either my tools or my stock.My old man uses oilstones and uses DOT 3 brake fluid for honing. So, before anyone else says it, DOT3 will destroy most painted surfaces.Tom
Aye well tms, unless I plan to do a bit of polish/paint stripping I'm not too keen on having caustic stuff around, and brake fluid has been used by yobbish and vindictive neds for quite a while to bugger up paintwork on Rollers, BMW's, Alfa's, Ferrari's, Merc's, Jags and even the odd Vauxhall, Seat, Ford or- gasp- Yugo, ha, ha.
3-in-1 is looking better and better. Slainte.RJFurniture
I'm glad this thread is started because in my experience oilstones have very little to recommend them. Why should we all have to try such concoctions of chemicals that confound rather than help our woodworking?
I love sharp tools that are flat, polished and rust free but more often than not a simple pursuit of tuning up a tool becomes this experimental process with wildly varying results.
Even texts on the subject are hit and miss. I recently purchased Thomas Lie-Nielsons Book "Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Sharpening" and must say that what looked promising in the bookstore lacked the depth that I was seeking. In my mind sharpening and tuning woodworking tools is almost an end in itself, requiring machinist skills and techniques most of which aren't tapped into by recreational woodworkers. Most of the learning about what works and doesn't work is experience based through many arduous hours of hands-on, trial and error experimentation.
By the way, the Pledge I'm using says "no wax formula" and "...has a patented formula that contains cleansing conditioners to help you gently remove dust, smudges and dirt...."
Doesn't DOT3 have silicone in it? Has anyone tried WD 40? That has cutting oil in it. For that matter, why not just use cutting oil?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
good idea high five (sp?) ! I think I'll try some water based tapping fluid next. I just think the 3 in 1 and the norton honing oil can be improved upon.
I don't think that DOT3 has silicone, but I'm not sure.Just to be clear, my father taught me to sharpen blade using DOT3 and oilstones when I was young. Nowdays I use Japanese waterstones.At 78, I don't expect him to change his methodTom
OK, I just googled DOT3 and it doesn't have silicone in it. It's glycol based. DOT5 is silicone based. Body shops use denatured alcohol to remove silicone. I'll have to try the brake fluid on my stone. I have some left over and won't use it on my truck since it's already open.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
You are right about DOT 5 being silicone it is used in classic cars to avoid paint damage from spills.It is not compatable with DOT 3 so requires a total strip and flush.Remember that brake fluid DOT3 is hygroscopic and will absorb water from the air so dry your irons afterwards
That's why I don't use brake fluid from opened containers.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
A few yeas ago I decided to renew the original shellac finish on a Stickley dining room table. It was representative of any 50 year old table with a shellac finish, what with spilled wine, unnoticed soggy place mats, etc. I decided to use Deft. Immediately, I had fish eyes. I asked my wife if she had ever used furniture polish on it, and she said yes, that she had used Pledge 30-35 years ago for a few months but had quit. I went to an automotive supply store and bought some fisheye remover, but was never successful in totally removing the silicon that caused the problem. The finish is not only "ropy" looking, but there is a perpetual problem with a material that develops on the susrface that looks like my grandchildren had been free and easy with the peanut butter and jelly. It will clean off with mineral spirits, but comes right back. I tried a test sample of clear shellac as a sealer in a small area, and it seems to work. I will probably use an alkyd varnish over the shellac when I do the complete job.My advice: get rid of the Pledge!
You may be interested to know that "fish-eye remover" is essentially 100% silicone. Apparently, if you add enough to the contaminated surface it all blends together somehow, maybe something like one single gigantic fish-eye.
Ben,
The can says PPG DX77 Fisheye Preventer contains Xylene, Ethylbenzene, Dimethylpolysiloxanes. Are any of these silicones? If you're right, that would explain my problem.
<Dimethylpolysiloxanes>
Will take a guess that is what this is,is silcone....
At least you aren't spraying it...It will foul the whole place with the stuff....If you have the problem, seal it with de waxed shellac (Sealcoat by Zinnser) then coat with whatever...
I just checked Google for the word "dimethylpolysiloxanes" and you are absolutely right, it is silicone. Thank you very much for solving a problem for me. I wonder how many people have made the same mistake I did and compound the problem.
I may be mistaken but , I believe that in this case, dimethylpolysiloxane is to silicon as soap is to fat. In other words, the methyl group is the organic soluble and the siloxane is the polar soluble. It allows you to remove the polar silicon using organic solvents.Tom
That said, did I remove the silicones or just spread them around?
Well,To use the soap anology again, did you rinse off the soap? After using the dimethylsiloxane, you should probably wipe a couple of times with clean methanol (a new rag each time). Just to make sureSilicones are very persistant. It spreads out to a molecular film, so a little goes a long long way, and it sticks to most things it touches. As I mentioned before, in the lab, we have to use very caustic detergents to get rid of it.Tom
Is the lubricating ability of silicone due to the way it can attach to everything on a molecular level, then when the surfaces slide against each other, the two layers of silicone film are in contact and the silicone can't attach to other silicone? Just wondering how it can lubricate so well, yet stick to everything it touches and hold on so tenaciously. Mutual attraction to other materials?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hmm,We're getting farther afield from my area of general prognostication but, If I were to guess? I would think that because silicone creates long string-like molecules, very similar to the carbon strings in hydrocarbons (they both have four available symetric bonds) that they act very similar to hydrocarbons. That's why you can have silicon "grease" or "oil" for example. And by modifying the end groups you can have amphipathic molecules (like dimethylsiloxane) that have affinity for both. I don't think that the problem with the silicones is so much that they're adheasive, as that they are persistent. In otherwords, a very little bit goes a long long way.Tom
polysiloxanes= silicones. Look for the "sil" fragment.D
Sorry, I was a lot better with physics than chemistry. Of course, if they had taught physics before chemistry, I would probably have liked it more.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks for the advice.
There is a FWW article called "Fixing Fish Eyes" by Michael Dresdner. Issue 67 (Nov/Dec 1987). It has been reprinted in one of the Taunton books. Silicone is extremely tenacious and needs (according to the article) a multi-step process to eliminate it.
Sprocket,
Pledge has silicone in it.
I once tried to touch up a table top, finished with Laquer and later cleaned with Pledge.
It was a nightmare, and I ended up sanding down the top and re-doing it from scratch.
Jellyrug,
Silicone is very insidious when it comes to any type of finish. Back when I was learning about auto body work I was taught that to be safe you needed to remove any wax (silicone) before sanding. If you sand first you simply push the silicone ahead of the sand paper and it hides in the tiny scratches; lurking there to trash your finish. We triple wiped with naptha prior to sanding, using a clean rag for each wipe.
Pretty paranoid hugh!?
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
I wouldn't call it paranoid when you're trying to have a great finish on the vehicle, or anything else. If that's what it takes, that's what needs to be done.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
sprocket,The absolute best book on sharpening woodworking tools, in my opinion, is 'The Complete Guide To Sharpening' by Leonard Lee of Lee Valley/Veritas. This book takes you right down to the micron level with electron photomicrographs which show you in vivid detail the effects of all the known methods of sharpening woodworking cutting tools. There is even a chapter on 'The Physics Of Severing Wood Fibers'. IMHO, I feel that anyone who purchases this book receives much more than he/she paid. There is a wealth of information that I have used on my carving tools, plane irons, and chisels. This is one of the best investments that I ever made. Take a look at it. It is a Taunton book: ISBN 1-56158-125-9.Regards,
Phillip
Another good resource is te following... and it's free.
http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html
I learned using this method and, after a lot of frustration, I can shave hair off my arm with a plane blade
btw I use a 30-70 mix of mineral oil and kerosene, but I don't like it because it stinks. Neetsfoot oil is too thick, olive oil too thick, but non-toxic I did use camelia oil on my final hard Arkansas and it worket great!
I know-waterstones probably work better, but I have already made a substantial investment :)
Thanks for the info.I don't know that they 'work better', but I don't think it can be denied that water stones cut faster - much faster - than oil stones. There are those that shudder to think that water is getting on their blade and that's a legitimate concern. However, I could never justify the time spent getting a new plane iron prepped for cutting on an oilstone. It takes long enough on a water stone and I want to get this phase of sharpening over with so I can get to work. I have never heard of anyone mention doing the coarse work on a water stone and then switching to the oilstone (s) for the final and future tune-up(s). As long as both are dead flat this should work just fine. Different strokes. I use water stones and the Tormek system for all of my sharpening work. I tried the wet/dry sandpaper method and it did work great so long as you either pull the blade (bevel side) to you or go side to side. Do otherwise and you'll rip the paper. Side to side, IMHO, is a so-so method because I do not believe that there is a human alive who can do this without rocking the blade to some degree which will result is a somewhat convex-shaped blade or slightly rounded corners at the minimum. On a water or oil stone this problem is minimized because you are able to push and pull the blade. The proper use of a honing guide completely eliminates any wasted motion as I see it. This gets you and the blade to work ASAP.I've attached two photos of wooden blade 'holders' which have helped me get the bottom of plane irons flat and shiny in no time. Each has to be made to match the blade but once it is done you can work away and not beat your fingers to death in the process. They are, of course, re-usable but only for that one blade or one like it. Their sole purpose is the removal of the very coarse grinding on the back of the plane irons. They are comfortable to hold, cost little and speed up the polishing of this side of the iron. Sharpening the bevel side takes no time at all in comparison. These have worked great for me and take no time to make on the band saw. Once wet, a screwdriver is required to pry the blade away from the wooden holder because the water swells the wood so it holds tightly. If you sharpen plane irons these may help you.In any case, we all have our favorite methods of getting the job done. So be it.Regards,
Phillip
I believe that there's a better than even chance that the waxes and silicones in that product are going to clog your stones.
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