Replies

1. 
   GHR | Apr 10, 2005 12:41am | #1

   I buy paper from the auto paint store, $.49/sheet.

   I find I can get mirror surfaces with 600 grit. (It is in the technique.)

1. 
   PJohn | Apr 10, 2005 02:29am | #2

   Hi, George..Thanks for the remark! I get pretty wordy, and could have gone on, but didn't. PAPER:
   Yup. That 49-cent stuff is just great, and I think it actually works better than the spendy Klingspor self-adhesive paper. I was pleased and surprised to discover that the local ACE Hardware store has SiC paper with excellent backing and nicely controlled grain sizing, but only through 1500 grit. Auto paint supply store can provide anything I need.SHARPENING:
   For much work, a lesser sharpening standard may be more efficient. I have a set of chisels for roughing that never see more than 600 grit and a moment of honing.Allow me to suggest that it's more than technique, however. Regardless of lightness of touch or degree of wear, 600 grit paper's granule sizes won't change, and 600 grit will leave a slight blush on the surface - darned nice-looking and mirror-like to a point, but far removed from brilliance. At the microscopic level, there are still peaks and valleys which may affect cutting efficiency. Every finer grit size will further refine the edge. (If that weren't true, they wouldn't make papers finer than 600, whether for paint or sharpening!)It's arguable that the whole could be done on very fine grit paper, but that's pretty inefficient. It's reasonable to skip a grit, as it takes only a few additional strokes to polish on down to removal of the last scratches even with a skipped grit size.For much general work in soft wood, I can discern little practical difference between a 600 grit edge and one at 2500 grit with green compound honing - a hammer blow's a hammer blow. However, for very fine work or in harder woods, I can definitely feel the difference in effort, accuracy, and resulting surface finish - especially when cutting by hand only. For woods carrying high mineral content, it's plain silly to sharpen to perfection - the minerals will erode a perfect edge in a heartbeat. Better to rough out with minimal sharpening effort, and save the elegant edges for final trimming if it's even needed.With a 2500 grit honing and green rouge stropping, there is no blush whatsoever - it's a brilliant, glasslike mirror. There's nothing sacred about the mirror finish save that it indicates the actual smoothness of the edge at the microscopic level - the only place where it counts.In my opinion, it's well worth balancing the effort to sharpen with the real requirements of the work being done. If less sharpening yields satisfactory results, then going further is just exercise.In my own shop, I carry on a wide range of work, including the usual barrage of honeydew opportunities (jack of all trades, and master of too darned few....) Since it takes only a few strokes to sharpen at the finer grit sizes, I usually carry on through so that my chisels (and planes) are ready, no matter what comes to hand next - it's easier than hauling out - and cleaning up - all the sharpening stuff to refine an edge before I start.

   Edited 4/9/2005 7:35 pm ET by John

2. 
   lwj2 | Apr 10, 2005 02:41am | #3

   I buy sheets, slap it down on my surface with a little oil behind it, works fine. Clean the surface with a paper towel when I'm finished with that sheet, start over with the next.

   If you want adhesive, you may want to try using a spray on adhesive and plain sheets.

   I sharpen until the edge shaves, leave it at that.

   YMMV

   Leon Jester
3. 
   SawdustSteve | Apr 10, 2005 02:53am | #4

   Question... after carefully flattening the full length of the back of your chisel, working your blade through EIGHT different grits and carefully inspecting the blade after each grit AND going through several grits to get the perfect micro-bevel, when do you have time to work on wood?? SawdustSteve

1. 
   PJohn | Apr 10, 2005 04:39am | #7

   Hi, Steve...Fettling the back of a chisel is a one-time affair -- when it's new. By keeping it straight with just a few strokes on the odd sharpening occasion, I'm always sure of being able to follow a deep cut line, as might be found in tapering a deep mortise, for example. Only the area at the cutting edge needs to be more refined, e.g., polished. If you think about it, there's a risk over the (hopefully) long life of the chisel that only smoothing the cutting end of the back will eventually yield rounding. That occasional swipe over the full length takes no time, and helps to ensure that it remains straight over its lifetime.The amount of work required for initial sharpening is greatly dependent on the manufacturer's practices. A straight and finely-ground blade will require little work to get it into shape. I found that the backs of these specific larger chisels were actually the most nicely ground - they took only a few moments of work to achieve both straightness and smoothness. Conversely, the danged 1/8" both had serrations down the back - like a very fast milling pass - and took the most time to straighten out. (However, some of the edges of my new ones weren't square with the body, so it took and extra 20 minutes apiece to get those right. That's a one-timer, also. If I had a machine shop, it could've been fixed in minutes.) I view it as a near-lifetime investment the first time around, because followup sharpenings are so fast.As to going through 8 grades:
   Not really. That again is a new-tool deal. Once they're right, it takes only a few strokes to keep them sharp, and the effort is minimal. Let's say stroke time varies between 2 and 4 strokes per second, that you're only going through 600, 800, 1200, 1500, 2000, and 2500, and that the paper is already handy at or on glass. Hmmm - that's 10 strokes on each of 6 papers or 60 strokes -- at 3/second, you can see it only takes 20 seconds or so to get back to perfection. It actually takes more time if you reduce the number of papers by skipping grits than it does to hit them all rapidly. Thus, it takes less than a minute to touch up a tool, including stropping.Also - it's silly to oversharpen. The extreme steps to a brilliant polish (indicating "perfect" edge potential) do at times make a big difference, but can be cut back significantly for most general work.Get 'em right from the git-go, and it's smooth sailing after.

2. 
   philip | Apr 10, 2005 07:02am | #13

   I suspect that he is getting high on the wd40 vapours after going through all those grits, so the actual woodworking is not important....

4. 
   douglas2cats | Apr 10, 2005 03:48am | #5

   I'm doing most every thing you are with a couple of small exceptions. As far as polishing the back, I only do the whole thing when I get a new chisel. I'll usually do the bevels on B.E. chisels the first time too. After that I'm pretty much just concentrating on the last few inches of the back. Every once in a while I might give the entire back a few strokes, but it's more for cleaning than anything else. I haven't used a honing guide yet and now wonder if I'm doing something wrong. If you're using a guide, then I assume your chisel edge is parallel with your body. I've always done it by hand with the edge perpendicular to my body. I just found it easier to keep the cutting bevel flat to the glass going that direction so I kept doing it. I haven't had any problem with wet/dry or any other paper bunching up when sharpening in that direction, and that's with the paper just loose on the glass - no adhesive, water, or anything. I do have adhesive backed superfine stuff on the glass under the wet/dry, so that may be proving enough friction to keep the top paper from slipping. I go through pretty much the whole range of grits you do, plus a couple others.

   Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?

1. 
   Yersmay | Apr 10, 2005 04:33am | #6

   A question to the sharpening gurus...I use a set of King Waterstones... a big green brick sized one that is very coarse (unsure of actual grit). Then 800. 1200... Then I have two fine stones... a cream colored one and a deep tan stone. I have long since lost the boxes and I'm unsure which is the finer of the two. These two fine stones put a mirror finish (more on that later) on the bevel... It may be my imagination but I think the cream colored one comes out a bit brighter, but in my distant memory I recall the deep tan one is the finer. Does anyone know which is the finer of the two and what their actual grit is? At any rate, like I say... in my kitchen I can get the bevel to a nice mirror... but when I examine the bevel in the bright sun, I can still see striations, like a very faint haze. Is there one more step that would elimate these striations, even though I only see them in the bright sun? It's still a very sharp edge, but I'm curious. Thanks!

1. 
   PJohn | Apr 10, 2005 06:15am | #10

   Hi...I'm not intimately familiar with the possible variations in Japanese water stones, so I'm afraid I can't offer definitive help in sorting them out. It's surely rational that the one delivering the finer reflection is indeed the finer stone.As to the haze - that's indication of barely discernible scratches, as is even a mirror finish. You're just seeing smaller and smaller scratches (which you undoubtedly already know.) Incidentally, Ol' Dummy here regularly forgets that there's enough oil on his fingers to cloud a mirror. Be sure that the surfaces you're inspecting are dead clean, or that clouding you see may just be dirt showing up in better light...If I may make a suggestion - - Try stropping with green rouge - that may make the difference with the system you're now using. And/or get a single sheet of 2500 paper and see if it eliminates the haze with attendant stropping (it should.) If it does, then you know that finer steps are available if you want to take them. As a controlled trial, sharpen two chisels or gouges - one as usual, and one with a discernibly brighter finish. Use both to accomplish exactly the same familiar job in your usual work setting, and using the wood you most commonly work. Repeat a few times until it's obvious that at least one of the tools needs to be stropped. If you perceive no difference in control, force needed, edge longevity, speed, accuracy, or resulting surface finish between the two, then there's no point in adding any further steps to your sharpening routine.

2. 
   EdHarrison | Apr 11, 2005 02:31am | #16

   Hi Yersmay,If you have the same set of King waterstones that I have and used to use, the cream colored one is the finer one and corresponds to 8000 grit (on the scale that Japanese waterstones use, and only if the moon is in the 12th ascendancy of the fire-dragon and the steel that you are sharpening has been blessed by the warrior spirits of the emperor's samurai who defeated the evil and spiritless Mongol hordes on the Chinese plains during the 12th century). <G> The other one ( the darker one) is 4000 grit. If you bought your set the same place I did, you should've gotten a Nagura stone as well - remember that thing, or did you just think it was a $3 piece of chalk like I did? I stopped using the waterstones a while back because the mess of the water was too much of a science project to deal with. I still use the green stone for rough shaping - recently used it to reshape the iron of a No. 39 3/8 inch dado plane (I would like to see someone clamp that in a honing guide!)These sharpening discussions are very entertaining to me. I don't know the answers to your other questions - I didn't fool with the waterstones long enough in my quest for perfect edginess to get the total read on them, but I'm saving up information slowly for my first woodworking treatise on sharpening tentatively titled, "Dude, Where's my Jeweler's Rouge?" And I am going to try the shaving in the shower with a well-sharpened very shallow carving gouge mentioned in the other thread - if my girlfriend will let me.Am using 0.3 micron adhesive film for the final step. That and a quick swipe or two on leather with the afore-mentioned jeweler's rouge. I don't know if this would pass John's test - John, hello, no offense meant, just funnin' - but it works.Take care, Ed

1. 
   none | Apr 11, 2005 05:54am | #17

   for final polishing of both the back and bevel, try tormek's paste on apiece of mdf.You will be able to your reflection on the back. If you look like me, then maybe you should let someone else look at their reflection. You can spend a fortune on sharpening equiptment, but if you don't use it it doesn't do any good. Practice makes perfect.

   Want to make a small fortune in woodworking, then start with a large one

    

    

    

    

    

   practice makes perfect

    

    

    

    

    

    

   practice makes perfect.

1. 
   EdHarrison | Apr 11, 2005 06:10am | #18

   Thanks pal. Sounds like you're giving me some sound advice. But since I've got a system that works for me and I'm comfortable with it, I've imposed an absolute, no-exception, no tolerances allowed moratorium on ever buying any more sharpening stuff. Really. I mean it. I'm not kidding this time. Unless they come out with "Sharpening In A Can," which would be like an aerosol spray that you sprayed on your tools and they would get sharper. I'd probably buy that.Take care, Ed

2. 
   MarkRoderick | Apr 11, 2005 04:03pm | #19

   You have a girlfriend these days?

1. 
   EdHarrison | Apr 11, 2005 04:17pm | #20

   Mark, It's my good looks, great personal wealth, joie de vivre, and command prescence that keeps me in an inexhaustible supply. Well, that and the single Moms down at the laundromat. Take care, Ed

2. 
   PJohn | Apr 10, 2005 05:49am | #8

   Hi, Douglas....I really appreciate your response. A zillon years of cabinetry suggests that you're not doing "anything wrong" by not using a honing guide...more about that further on. You and I are very much on the same wavelength - fettling the back is a one-time-when-new affair. Ditto the sides if that's needed. I do like to take a pass or two on the entire underside once in a while just to ensure that I'm not getting any rounding in the last inch or so. For the most part, I'll take a light stroke on the back's last inch or so after every grit just to get rid of the wire edge, with attendant care not to raise the handle and create a reverse bevel. If the last 1/4" or so is polished, then I'm satisfied. It surely must result in a few angstroms of out-of-straight condition, but it's far too little to fret over.Like you, I've always used an oilstone with freehand control, and with good results. (Yep - freehand at right angles, but parallel with a guide.) I've never been entirely happy with stones, as they can get slightly out of flat, but need to be severely so to be noticeable, not to mention that they consume an enormous amount of extra real estate with boxes and restraints. Worse, you never see that they're not flat until you need 'em. Their limited range of grits pretty much dictates the time required in each step. I prefer oilstones because they're so hard and need less effort to keep their surfaces in good condition. Waterstones are wonderful, but are a pain to keep tuned up - I have no interest whatsoever in having to spend even more time fiddling with tuning up my tuneup supplies! Ennahoo, with all the noise about plate glass and SiC paper, I decided with some skepticism to see if the old dog might learn something.Boy - did I. The greatest thing about a good paper(s) is that it's not only uniform, but that it adopts the flatness of the plate glass and can be simply tossed out when it's tired - and the flat surface is still there! I found, to my surprise, that once I learned to use a guide, it enabled much faster and more uniform sharpening. I can literally re-hone and strop an edge (not nicked or otherwise damaged) in less than a minute, and with terrific accuracy and repeatability. It took a few hours to get up to speed, as there new hand and arm positions to acquire as habit. A guide will "talk to you", but you have to spend some time training yourself to listen to it.It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I surely do like the system.
   -------------------
   There are a few features that I think are important in a guide:1) Stance - it must have rollers of sufficient width to help maintain vertical position. Small rollers tend to allow rocking, and require inordinate attention and slower progress.2) Repeatability - ff you can't set it up the same every time, then every honing is going to be an adventure in resharpening. A couple of homemade jigs can help to ensure setup repetition if the the guide is reasonably well made.3) Versatility - Gotta handle every width, thickness, and length of blade you own - planes, chisels, etc. at every angle from 15 to 40 degrees. (40 isn't a problem, but 15 might be a real challenge for a short tool.)4) Reference plane - if the chisel's top isn't parallel to its underside across its width, then a guide whose holder references the top will not deliver an edge at 90 degrees to the length of the chisel, and may severly distort the grind. Reference plane should be the working underside of the tool.5) Overall dimensions - if it's a foot long and 6 inches wide, you'll need a lot of real estate just to park the d...d thing.
   -----------------(I admit to an engineering background, and fussy analysis of what I'm doing. If better is possible, then that's what I want to be doing, with the provision, of course, that the "better" method doesn't have me spending all of my time "getting ready"....;-)As to "bunching" - that's a deliberate overstatement. What I do see is that if I apply enough pressure, I can perceive a slight change in the paper's surface as the blade passes - if'n the light's right and it ain't rainin' too hard, there's a barely perceptible change in the reflection from the surface of the oil at line of contact. It may just be compression of the paper, but I wanted to hear if anyone else had made that observation, and whether there might be some associated common wisdom.[ When fettling my planes, I noticed that the edges would become barely rounded - nothing to worry about - and concluded that it was the result of the free papers' lifting from the surface and putting just a little more grind at leading edges. I thought that adhesive-backed paper would be the answer, but have been sorely disappointed in its performance - I can do just as lousy a glue job with spray adhesive. I've been using newer loose paper and haven't seen the tendency to lift or curl, but am still puzzled over that tiny shift visible as the edge passes. ]
   ==================
   Your comments:
   I'm not convinced of the value of fettling the bevels or top plane, provided they're smooth, straight, and flat. Can you help me understand?Now for YOUR teaser ... tell me, if you will, about the "couple of other" grits you use, and why ... ?

   Edited 4/9/2005 10:50 pm ET by John

1. 
   douglas2cats | Apr 10, 2005 06:06am | #9

   The other grits - these 3 from Lee Valley are the ones actually stuck to my glass. The finest is 9000 grit and really gives a mirror finish (as long as you haven't left scratches in at earlier stages). 

   http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=33004&cat=1,43072

   On the other end, if I'm working on a new (or new used) chisel, I've gone as low as 60 grit for real nasty or badly out-of-flat tools and worked up from there. I also rarely have to go as low as 220 after the first time. But if I get some serious nicks, I'll often grab 180 grit sanding screen and lay it on the glass. It cuts faster than paper - I think due to the holes that let the grains fall away.

    Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?

1. 
   PJohn | Apr 10, 2005 06:30am | #11

   Agreed re 220 - only for repair after initial setup. Hadn't thought of 180 screen - will have to try that - thanks!Papers:
   Jeeez - 0.5 micron. Do you use that in place of stropping? Is it faster? [ The step from 2500 (5 micron) to 9000 (0.5 micron) is 10x, and I'd anticipate some time involved in applying it to completion. If it's better or faster, I'll have to try it, despite its cost. If it will replace stropping, all the better, because it's a part of the dead-flat glass surface. ] Do you perceive a noticeable difference in tool performance with it?

1. 
   douglas2cats | Apr 10, 2005 03:50pm | #15

   Well let's see...

   Papers:Jeeez - 0.5 micron. Do you use that in place of stropping?   Yes

   Is it faster?  I don't know as I never timed it or used a strop. I'm mainly using it so I dont have to have a separate stropping setup. I've got a strip of all 3 of the LV papers mounted to the glass. For maybe 50-60% of the time I'm just touching up the edge on all 3 papers or starting with one of the very fine wet'dry grits and working up from there.

   [ The step from 2500 (5 micron) to 9000 (0.5 micron) is 10x, and I'd anticipate some time involved in applying it to completion.  It does seem like a big step, but the 9000 is probably the one I have to spend the least amount of time on. If I've done things right through the earlier grits, it doesn't take much time at all with the 9000.

   If it's better or faster, I'll have to try it, despite its cost. If it will replace stropping, all the better, because it's a part of the dead-flat glass surface. ]  I dont think I can answer this one for you since, like I said, I haven't compared it to stropping. I haven't really perceived the cost of the LV papers to be that bad and it lasts quite a while. It's not paper-backed but a very tough film. Give it a spin and see what you think.

    

   Do you perceive a noticeable difference in tool performance with it? Well it's not a big difference, but yeah. I think I can tell a difference between using or not using that last 9000 grit. You can certainly see a difference in the amount of polish.

   Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but I think I covered them all.

    

    Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?

2. 
   PJohn | Apr 15, 2005 02:31pm | #33

   Douglas, I've been remiss in not acknowledging your last response. I appreciate the detailed info, and will follow up.

5. 
   philip | Apr 10, 2005 06:54am | #12

   Hi John,
   Is your hobby woodworking or sharpening??? I think I would like to live near you so that I could just send over the odd plane iron. chisel or two and some tungsten tipped planer knives now and again-oops, not the tungsten stuff.But this may not be practical so I'll just make do with my red DMT and some stropping , as I mainly use hardwoods that have silica content.
   Come on man, I don't believe that going to those extremes is productive or worth the time ,effort and expense. As a matter of further interest, how do you test for sharpness, and how do you compare/evaluate the edge produced by a green DMT and stropped, as against an edge produced by 600 800 or1200 grit paper and stropped?
   Please do not be offended, but fine woodworking is my livelihood , so if there is a better way to sharpen out there I am interested.

1. 
   PJohn | Apr 10, 2005 07:39am | #14

   If you'd read the responses instead of cracking wise, you'd have your answers.More civilly and in regard to your question, I test for sharpness by observation. For example, I just hand-planed a piece of oak and was left with a surface that literally will reflect nearby objects. That means there's not a torn fiber visible anywhere, and it feels polished to the touch. The piece is finish-ready without sanding. That level of tool performance cannot be attained through "normal" or practical sharpening techniques. Hmmm - actually, the extra sharpening steps are really very fast, once the tool's been properly shaped, so I can't really say that I consider the additional steps to be impractical.Interestingly, the plane sounds different. With little or no tearing, it's very nearly silent in passage. I'm more accustomed to a slightly lower level of tune in which the wood will "sing" as it's cut. (Anything less is just sweaty butchery.) Needless to say, there is a perceivable reduction in the amount of force required to make a cut.There is one element of impracticality that comes to mind, to the extent that such edges are at risk in the toolbox or at the "usual" jobsite. Keeping such edges requires some coddling, lest one spend altogether too much time in restoring them.I am keenly aware that there's a difference between what *can* be done as opposed to what *should* be done. One cannot afford (in most cases) the luxury of "perfect" work for sale - there just are too few buyers with the demands and understanding to support that caliber of effort - some other guy will win a contract at lower price just because he's reading the market. There's nothing wrong with that - I can see no point in making any kind of thing for sale that no one will pay for.[ I do think it's too bad. In building a new house a few years ago, I couldn't even *find* a craftsman for hire who could do what I wanted. Seems we're at risk of losing some old-time techniques and capabilities that I, at least, treasure. Result: tons of projects to keep the old guy spry...;-) ]There are those blessed few - the Maloofs, Birds, et.al. who are renowned and highly sought after, and thus able to name their prices, or nearly so. The rest of us gotta make a living.On the other hand, things that I create for my family are intended (hopefully) to become heirloom remembrances, and I am free to invest considerable time and effort without concern for remuneration or making a living at it. Some tell me that I should do this professionally, but they don't understand that the market just isn't there. I am an incurable perfectionist, and perfectly attuned to spending whatever hours are needed on any square inch to get it where I want it - an absolutely guaranteed recipe for commercial failure.Now - all that said, I frankly think that a tool that's sharpened to the point of returning credible work to the client's satisfaction can be pronounced as being "sharp enough." I have an alternate set of tools used for framing as well as interior finish work, which you may rest assured are not maintained (or used) at that elevated condition, and I will not return substandard work. I similarly have, for instance, a set of blades for general work on my table saw, and a "sacred few" that see the light of day only occasionally. At this stage in my life, I'm more interested in pursuing elegant solutions than in cranking out product for profit ...;-) And, yeah, honeydo opportunities keep the everyday tools plenty busy.By the way, an "elegantly sharp" chisel can taper a mortise across oak end grain with only hand pressure and leave no residual shrapnel. On the other hand, on exactly which occasion would one install fox wedges in oak for a contracted job...??There are no more princes supporting artisans, and no more artisans who view a loaf of bread as a living. It's up to the rest of us to ensure that the old knowledge is in one way or another preserved and enjoyed.

   Edited 4/10/2005 4:18 am ET by John

1. 
   philip | Apr 15, 2005 11:25am | #30

   Hello John,
   I see that I have up to this point neglected to thank you for your very interesting post in response to my flippant response re your previous post.Thank you very much-I see where you are coming from so now we are on the same wave length.
   You may be interested to know that I recently acquired one of those #27 Stanley Rule and Level transitional planes. I gave it a tune up and took the opportunity to prepare and hone the iron to the highest standard I have the tools to attain- i.e used a black water stone (ex Grandfather , made in Germany)and then stropped with green rouge. The mouth needed narrowing a bit, and a new Knob turned , some paint etc. That plane is now a pleasure to use and joins the ranks of the sacred few as you say.

1. 
   PJohn | Apr 15, 2005 02:19pm | #32

   Hi, Mookaroid...Thanks for your most gracious response. Your plane sounds like quite a treasure. I agree with and admire you for being willing to put it to work, rather than just setting it aside in reverential awe, or as an antiquated curiosity.Those "sacred few", for me include e.g., some of the modern carbide saw blades that seem to be the most true and return the least damage, as well as the collection of my grandfather's century-old hand tools, plus some others. There's something about the feel of an old tool in the hand that's more organic - probably the result of years of wear and polish against skin (if it isn't outright design and balance) - that makes them seem to be more easily used and more responsive to an elegant turn of the wrist ... er .. on those few celebrated occasions when I actually manage to pull off something vaguely reminiscent of elegance... I can usually do decent work with a new hand tool, but it most often doesn't feel the same. Can't recall when I last purchased one that was a joy to handle. (That's probably unfair to the likes of a L/N plane, which I haven't yet the pleasure of owning.) Ya can tell, actually - the fair ones you hold, but the good ones seem to grow out of your hand.Events like Irwin's mashing of Record, and B/D's recent purchase of P/C, Delta, and whatever else was visible scare me. They're all about pushing whatever's marginally salable to a largely uninformed but huge hobby market. We're gonna have to learn to forge our own d..d tools.Har - owning - my wife believes that I own every tool ever invented, despite my considerable wish list...---John

2. 
   joinerswork | Apr 12, 2005 06:40am | #21

   mookie,

   If you'd quit cracking wise you'd be able to do as I do: Polish the bevels till you see your reflection, then use the reflected image, and the rouge, to touch up the blush on your cheeks.  Gotta look nice for the customers, ya know.

   Cheers,

   Ray

1. 
   philip | Apr 12, 2005 12:37pm | #22

   Yes, I get the message , o wise one. Wise cracks not withstanding, John took the time off in between sharpenings to come up with an interesting and thought provoking read- did you see it? I am grateful to him.
   Now I have some questions for the sharpening gurus;-
   1)I recently picked up an 8"x3" 1200 grit King stone from a chap who said it was useless. No chips, one side only very slightly dished, the other still flat, but he had been using engine oil or something thick and sticky, so the surfaces are in a state. After flattening the one side the stone still is impregnated with this stuff. I know that one can sort out man made carborundom stones by boiling the gunk out of them- will this work on King stones? how about soaking in something like thinners or mineral turpentine?
   2)Assuming I can "purify" this stone I would like to know if anybody uses them with kerosene or paraffin, and if this is effective and not detrimental to the stone. I don't like using water.
   What say ye?

1. 
   Jellyrug | Apr 14, 2005 01:58am | #23

   "2)Assuming I can "purify" this stone I would like to know if anybody uses them with kerosene or paraffin, and if this is effective and not detrimental to the stone. I don't like using water.What say ye?"

    

   I use to use all my water stones with Kerosene and also, I'm addicted to Cuban Cigars, this resulted in my mustache burning off while sharpening. Because the Kerosene gives me a real kick when inhaled in adequate quantities, the side effect slowed down my reaction time. By the time I had the fire put out in my mustache, my hand was surrounded by flames. I have developed this habit when sharpening, to look at my handsome face in the mirror finish of my micro-bevel, while brushing my hand through my hair. Sooo, to make a long story short my hair caught fire as well, but fortunately I keep an ice cold gallon of Budweiser next to the bench for frequent refreshment and the liquid readily extinguished all the flames. Due to the fire, I lost some of my handsome appearance and my wife divorced me. I have sold all my water stones since.

   Don't use kerosene, or paraffin on a water stone!

   Clean it by soaking in a degreasing fluid, if it has been spoilt with oil.

1. 
   philip | Apr 14, 2005 10:37am | #24

   ...of cigars, moustaches,kerosene, fire and water stones.Thanks for the amusing anecdote- I will take your advice not to use kerosene, but as I don't like water I am thinking of utilising either Jim Beam or a sweet wine.
   Seriously though ,I did soak that stone in min. turps- no result, then tried thinners-no result, so then I boiled it for 45minutes-bingo, all the gunk was forced out and the smell caused my cats to flee next door for the night. The stone is of virginal appearance now and ready for use-that is when I do not favour my DMT plate.

2. 
   Jellyrug | Apr 14, 2005 06:20pm | #25

   About the diamond plates, I have two, a 350 and a 750 and never use them any longer.

   Don't want to open this thread again, as there are a gazillion ways to skin a cat. I only use my water stones for plane irons, everything else I do on a wet grinder, followed by a paper buffing wheel. If I have to do major surgery on a chisel, I'll use a grey wheel, then to the wet grinder, then to the paper buffing wheel. I don't use the wet grinder much, only if I have to re-shape a bit. The buffer does most of the work.

   Pretty much the principle a Tormek works on, except I believe the paper wheel does a better job than their leather buffing wheel.

    

2. 
   Peter36 | Apr 15, 2005 02:35am | #26

   Why don't you like to use water? They are water stones after all.

1. 
   philip | Apr 15, 2005 05:17am | #27

   Hi Peter,
   I dislike using water on water stones because no matter what you do rust always manages to set in . Also I think that as paraffin/kerosene is a cutting agent it enhances the cutting action of a carbo stone or diamond plate. Since I have found an easy and quick way to remove oil etc. from King type stones I will try using that on the one I recovered.
   I have used parraffin for the last many years and a quick wipe off keeps everything sweet.

2. 
   Jellyrug | Apr 15, 2005 06:57am | #28

   Mookaroid,

   Any oil based media will destroy a water stone.

   You have to soak the stone in water for at least 20 minutes before sharpening and keep it wet. Imagine doing this with kerosene....

   If you are concerned about rust while sharpening, add sodium bicarbonate in the water, (baking soda), which will lower the PH.

3. 
   philip | Apr 15, 2005 08:54am | #29

   Thanks for that information re the soda bicarb.
   Now that someone has actually confirmed that an oil-based product such as kerosene will damage a water stone I won't even experiment with it.

6. 
   rockerman | Apr 15, 2005 01:47pm | #31

   Hello John,

   I make my living making beauiful things out of wood and as such do not want to spend any more time than necessary with sharpening and setting up. When I was much younger I was a big fan of Japanese water stones but I grew weary of flattening them after every use. Then about ten years ago I discovered that my shop had several perfectly adequate "flat" surfaces that I could lay a piece of sandpaper on and use as a sharpening surface. These flat surfaces are my jointer table and my table saw table. Both are absolutely flat enough to sharpen plane blades and chisels.

   As far as the paper goes, I use what I consider the fastest and best cutting paper ever made in my woodworking and that is Rhyno from Industrial Abrasives, The three main grits I use for wood are 100, 220 and 320.

   I have found that the 220 and 320 work exquisitely on metal as well and with one sheet of 220 and 320 each I can sharpen my plane blade or several chisels.

   I use a little tool to hold my blade angle constant with a roller on the back and if you hold your paper on the back edge and only push forward you will have no problem with the paper wrinkling.

   With a few strokes on the 320 the paper naturally degrades to a much finer grit. I then go to a leather strop glued to a block of wood. I can easily get a mirror edge on any plane blade or chisel (that will shave all the hair off your arm in a couple strokes) in five minutes or less; then I am back to making money.

   I hope you find this useful. Have a great day.

   Hal

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/15/2005 6:54 am ET by Hal Taylor

1. 
   PJohn | Apr 15, 2005 02:48pm | #34

   Hello, Hal...Thanks for the steer - will attempt to find and try Rhyno.Unfortunately, my saw table is flat, but not finely enough ground to be useful in your scenario. Ennahoo, already own the glass. I try to what extent I can to divorce abrasives, oil, etc. from the direct locale of woodworking machinery. It may be anal or overly cautious, but I don't want to relax enough to let good habits creep toward laxness on my part. (Not suggesting that you would.)And...yes...I find a honing guide to be really helpful. Can duplicate grind angle and hold it perfectly while concentrating on the sharpening. Don't even have to look at it - you get a good feel for appropriate pressure and number of strokes, and just keep moving from one grit to the next. Can do it manually, but the increase in speed (for me, at least) makes it a worthwhile gadget.---John

   Edited 4/15/2005 7:54 am ET by John