Replies

1. 
   notDusty | May 02, 2005 04:47am | #1

           Hi Eric ,

                         Sometimes the glue will actually calendar thru the veneers , often it happens at the seams . I have mainly noticed this with import products , but it can occasionally be found on domestics as well . So , if the results are not right with the stain you have already used , another alternative is to use a glazed , shaded or a more highly pigmented and a more opaque type of finish . Unfortunately this will not be as transparent a finish as you wished for .

              good  luck         dusty

2. 
   Maret | May 02, 2005 04:55am | #2

   I've had the same problem even with 3/4" ply. I don't know whether it's adhesive or some kind of sealer that they use in the factory to lay the grain down, but it's a spoiler.

   In desperation, I diluted an oil-based flat paint 50-50 with mineral spirits and rubbed it on the work. Then I wiped residue off the surface. I had to wipe HARD to get up the paint on the surface and leave it in the pores. The paint stayed in the pores and the surface of the piece looked smooth. It also seemed to seal the surface well.

   You MUST sand the surface very smooth before this will work. And you will still get some paint sticking down in grain, especially on oak, but it looks better than little white specks all over it.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/1/2005 9:56 pm ET by Maret

1. 
   EricAnderson | May 02, 2005 12:43pm | #3

   This entertainment center was to be a "quick project" that was to go with my more intensive arts and crafts pieces in the bedroom that have real solid quarter sawn wood panels that are "harder" to make.  The oak hardwood plywood panels were to be "no brainers".  Ha!

   I have been using a Minwax Provincial Stain followed by an oil/varnish finish on these pieces.  I have never used a glaze with this type of finish.  How would a 1# barrier coat of shellac over the Provincial stain be followed by a glaze, followed by a oil/varnish? 

   I have also considered rubbing some artist oil stain over the provincial stain and wiping it off tending to leave it in the pores in the areas where the white specs are.  What do you-all think of that?

   Should I use the barrier coat of shellac before any experiment to fill these pores with white specs?

2. 
   EricAnderson | May 02, 2005 12:54pm | #4

   By the way.  I did not expect to get two immediate replys from people with the exact same problem.  If this is common, why hasn't there been an outcry about this from users of this plywood?  How long has this been going on? 

   I guess I should buy this plywood at a local builder's supplier instead of Home Depot.

1. 
   TXJon | May 02, 2005 04:07pm | #5

   There's been plenty of outcry, and this has been going on since Home Depot (and others) have been selling imported CRAP plywood! 

   In fact, you got off easy; it sounds like yours didn't warp, the face veneers didn't delaminate, and you didn't find any huge voids when you cut into the sheet.  I've seen some that had the soap bubble thin face veneers glued on with RED glue!

   I'm just guessing, but did you get a "good deal" on that ply?  About $25/sheet?

   Don't take this as a rant aimed at you, it's just that that stuff makes me nuts. 

   Somebody call Ralph Nader, this garbage is unstable at any size!

   edit: Your local lumberyard probably sells the same garbage, along with higher quality, much higher priced stuff.  We are watching the Walmartification of the plywood industry.  After all, why would anyone pay $50-60/sheet for oak ply, when they can get "the same thing" for $25?

   I could go on all day....

   Edited 5/2/2005 9:13 am ET by TXJon

3. 
   Dave45 | May 02, 2005 05:21pm | #6

   I use lots of red oak plywood (sometimes from HD) and haven't had the problem you describe.  In my experience, ALL plywood suffers from the problem of ultra-thin veneers, but your description sounds more like a glue "squeeze out" problem.  A few questions if I may.......

   • How much glue squeeze out did you have during assembly?  I try to use just enough glue to get a small amount of squeeze out - but no more.  Excess squeeze out just makes a mess and can cause problems with darker stains.
   • How did you handle whatever amount of squeeze out you had?  I keep a damp rag or sponge handy during assembly and immediately wipe away any squeeze out.  I've heard people say that this can weaken a joint but I've never had a problem.  I don't flood the area, but wipe enough to clean away the squeeze out.  Rinse your rag or sponge frequently so you don't smear even more glue around.
   • Did you do any sanding before assembly?  Factory plywood is sanded to about 150 grit and I usually pre-sand to 180 or 220 before I start gluing up.  This reduces the porosity of the wood and makes cleanup easier.
   • What color glue did you use?  I don't use white or yellow glue when I work with darker wood (or know I'll be using a dark stain).  Titebond makes a "Dark Wood" glue that works great in these situations.  Even if you leave a little residue, it's virtually invisible.

   Of course none of these ideas solve your current problem, so I recommend some very careful sanding followed by restaining.  Sanding these thin veneers can be tricky so you might practice on some scrap to get a feel for how much sanding you can do before you get one of the dreaded "sand throughs".

   Good luck.

    

4. 
   Rich14 | May 02, 2005 11:41pm | #7

   Eric,

   This won't help with your current problem, and it's not meant as criticism, just information.

   The difficulty you've run into is not really a defect in the product. It's not the fault of the materials. It's not because HD is supplying cheap cr*p.

   The problem is your lack of familiarity with veneers and what to expect from the material. Glue bleed through has always been a "problem" with veneering. It has been a problem from the 1700s when much thicker veneers were used right up until the present state of technology which allows microscopically thin layers of wood to be cut from logs and adhered to a substrate.

   Wood is porous. That is a natural property. It is impossible to expect that adhesive will NOT ooze up through the pores of a thin laminate if the adhesive is liquid when the lamination is done.

   There are many ways to deal with the situation. One is to use a glue that is not a problem even if it does come through the pores. Workers who use hot hide glue don't worry about it at all. In fact, they use the stuff as a lubricant on the top sufrace  as they press the veneer down into the glue underneath either with a veneer press or a veneer "hammer." Later, the glue is sanded off. Residual generally causes no problems.

   Another technique is to apply to the substrate a glue which dries (PVA), and is then heat-activated by ironing the veneer. Very little, if any, squeeze-through happens.

   Contact cements can minimize the problem.

   Using thicker veneer minimizes the problem.

   Another technique is to use a paper-backed veneer. High-quality work involves this kind of product, but it's more expensive than bare veneer. Good quality hardwood plywood is made with paper-backed veneer, but you won't find it at HD, and you'll pay upwards of $150 a 4x8 sheet. The veneer alone, in small quantity is $2 a square foot, minimum, for real plain oak or maple. You do the math for a quality finished sheet. But it's worth it.

   We live and learn. You didn't appreciate the characteristics of the low-cost material you used. Now you do. It's not meant for high-quality finishing, but it has its uses. Unfortunately, you have yet to experience some of the more egregious problems with plywood from HD and similar outlets. Wait until it starts to warp and delaminate. If it doesn't, it will have really lived up to all expectations for it.

   Rich

1. 
   EricAnderson | May 03, 2005 02:35am | #8

   Hey, guys.  Appreciate your information, but I don't think your information applies here.  The problem is not from MY glueups.  In fact, I took some raw pieces that I never touched and stained them.  On one piece I lightly sanded with 220 on half and left the other half as it came from HD.  The other piece I sanded lightly and stained.  I can take some photos if you want, but the results were that both halves (sanded and unsanded) showed about the same result of white pores.  The other piece looks pretty good.  Maybe it was another piece, I don't know (I bought 2 pieces at the time).

   I did not want to veneer anything this time.  I just wanted to use some off-the-shelf hardwood plywood.  If this is "normal" then I really don't understand its use.  One would only buy clear face oak hardwood plywood to stain, right?  I sure would not buy it to paint it!

   I bought some pastewood filler.  Hate to fill the grain, but maybe I can do it "lightly".  Does anyone thing this might work?

1. 
   TXJon | May 03, 2005 02:49am | #9

   Assuming you are using the $25 HD CRAP, filling the pores will not help.  The face veneer is cut so thin that the glue behind it is already filling those pores. That is the problem.

   You are right in thinking that one would normally stain clear oak ply, but this stuff is not normal ply.  The producer is able to sell it cheaply enough that you, (and me, once) thought it was a pretty good deal.  It can't be used like quality plywood because it isn't.

   I'm going to repeat what's been said here before: if this is your only problem with this stuff, you have gotten off easy!