Replies

1. 
   BG | Jun 20, 2006 01:01pm | #1

   LeChuck,
   I think you've got the correct perspective on setting the guides. I use cool blocks with a bearing on the back side. The back bearing is engaged as I cut stock..otherwise it is still. The cool blocks I press(light pressure) against the blade on both sides and tighten down...the blade will wear away any space it needs.
   With your bearings on the side you can put a dollar around the blade and lightly press bearings and tighten down. I think the key is balanced pressure from both sides and getting the guides as close to the base of the gullet as possible. When all is said and done, however, these are just guides...they help support the blade....I would not worry to much about thousands of an inch.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 6/20/2006 9:35 am ET by BG

2. 
   forestgirl | Jun 20, 2006 06:36pm | #2

   BG gave you a good explanation.  I'll add one tiny thing:  I've found a Post-It Note ("Stickies") to be a great substitute for a dollar bill.  Folding it over and sticking it to itself makes it easier to fiddle with the guides and get them, as BG mentions, evenly set without pushing the blade.

   Alot of times now, I don't even "measure" the gap.  I just push the guide up against the blade, and then barely touch the blade on the other side to move the guild away almost imperceptibly.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 
   

1. 
   LeChuck | Jun 20, 2006 07:31pm | #3

   Thanks for the tips, but but but....about the main question (and BG already answered for the back bearing): should those side ball-bearing guides rotate along with the blade? Should they rotate fast, or sometimes just when the blade wants to deflect a bit? What is a normal state of operation for them? And should they get hot?

3. 
   GBez | Jun 20, 2006 11:23pm | #4

   LeChuck,

   If any of your bearings (back, sides, top or bottom) rotate fast when your band saw is on (without cutting), it means that your blade is making contact and therefore generating heat from the friction.  As you know heat is your enemy and will reduce the life of the blade, bearings, etc.  With that being said, BG gave you a great explanation so here are my 2 cents. 

   The dollar bill method does work pretty well but is tedious IMHO.  The “1/32 rule” is not an exact science.  I set up mine so that they barely spin when the machine is on. They may very so slightly turn as air draft/vibration may play their part.  In other words, set all bearing (back, sides, top and bottom) so that they are as close as you can make it without spinning fast and you should be OK. 

   Once you start cutting material (AKA. putting some load) the blade would contact the bearing and keep it straight.  The bearings should not make contact with the blade but rather provide you with deflection limits for deviations whenever you are cutting. 

   Do the bill or eyeball it as close as you can without having them touch and you are good to go.  

   It took me just a few min to set up mine.  After a few iterations you should have the technique down to a “T” and should be a quick thing.  

   Good luck to you and hope my 2 cents are worth at least something to you.

1. 
   Rich14 | Jun 21, 2006 12:10am | #5

   GBez ' description of the set up is about as good as it gets. The guides should be as close as possible without spinning too much.

   Actually, they should not spin at all, which is the problem. If you were using non-ball bearing guides (cool blocks or such) the advice would be the same - get them barely, but not quite touching the blade. In that position, rotation of the bearings would not be an issue as there is nothing to rotate, and no noise.

   Ball bearing guides, when they are just a "dollar bill's thickness" away from the blade rotate for all manner of reasons including air friction, table vibration, harmonic vibration. They are really over-rated as guides and their incessant noise is one of the reasons. They do get the job done, but properly set up, I think cool blocks are better.

   Anyway, once you get your guides set up to just barely touch the blade, and just barely rotate (or maybe not rotate at all), and you get used to the sound of the machine when you have it just the way you want, you'll relaize that a band saw is almost as much a musical instrument as a machine to cut wood. There are all kinds of sounds it makes idling and when cutting correctly that tell you it's "in tune." You'll get to recognize its "tunes," and then you'll be as much an expert as anyone.

   Rich

   Edited 6/20/2006 5:17 pm ET by Rich14

1. 
   LeChuck | Jun 21, 2006 12:34am | #6

   Thanks GBez, Rich, and all. Now I've got enough information on the way it is suppposed to work and should be able to set them up with no problem. I did notice that the sound was just not quite right.Thanks!

1. 
   John_D | Jun 21, 2006 02:42am | #9

   I'll just add that I've found it easier to set up with a feeler gauge (than with paper, or eyeballing).  The numbers on the little gauges correspond to what's in my manual (.010 and .004, IIRC), and the gauges are thin enough to slip right into place and allow easy, fast setup.My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

1. 
   LeChuck | Jun 21, 2006 02:49am | #10

   I guess that's something more on my purchase list.........

2. 
   John_D | Jun 21, 2006 10:43am | #11

   Well, this one won't dent your budget.  If you go whole hog and buy a complete cheap set new, it's well under $20.  All they are is little slips of brass and other metal, in a sort of jack knife setup.  You can unscrew one end and remove the ones you want.  Or you might find a set in some toolbox, they're common, cheap and as effective for this purpose as you could want.My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

2. 
   SteveV | Jun 25, 2006 09:51pm | #12

   I have one other question ... I have just gotten my new Grizzly G0555 and setup the guides as shown in the setup.  This pretty much follows what everyone has said.

   However, when I resaw, the band saw screeches as I make the cut.  I assumed this was from the blade being pushed against the rear or thrust bearing roller.  Is this noise normal?  I am pretty sure the blade is tensioned correctly but maybe not.  It is quiter when making smaller cuts as I would expect.  I have never resawn wood before so I don't know what to expect.

   BTW ... I love the saw and it has almost not blade drift when resawing.

   ThanksSteve

1. 
   Rich14 | Jun 25, 2006 10:42pm | #13

   Something is not set up properly. Probably the blade tension. What brand blade are you using? The type of blade makes a huge difference.Resawing puts stresses on the machine far beyond any other operation and it takes a while to learn how to "tune" the machine.Is the blade riding perfectly on the top of the tires so that the front-back dimension of the blade is perfectly parallel to the direction of the cut? Are the wheels coplanar? Surprisingly, they may not be even in a new machine. This alignment is not as crucial as some would make it, but it can make a difference if too far out.What blade tension are you running, and how did you arrive at that tension?Rich

2. 
   forestgirl | Jun 25, 2006 10:58pm | #14

   I hope you're not using the stock blade for resawing....  Unless they've starting shipping the G0555 with a Timberwolf blade, you need to swap it out for something decent.  This is the story with the vast majority of stock blades that come with 14" bandsaws, not just the Grizzly.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

1. 
   Rich14 | Jun 25, 2006 11:33pm | #15

   Forestgirl is right about the possibility of Grizzly shipping a blade that is the total cause of your problem. The blade they sent with my machine several years ago was junk. I hoped they had stopped that practice.Why in the world a manufacturer would ship anything but a component that would make their machine sing is a mystery to me. Low cost is the worst excuse. Why bother? No amount of adjustment could tune out the (many) problems that piece of junk blade caused. It was incapable of decent performance, forget resawing.When I put Timberwolves on, it was like a different machine. I had to try hard to make it perform badly. Later I found equally good blades from other sources.I know that Grizzly offers Timberwolves for sale, but I don't know if they ship one with the machine.Rich

1. 
   SteveV | Jun 26, 2006 05:23am | #16

   You're both right.  I was using the blade that shiped "on" the machine.  Grizzly is running their summer sale and included a 1/2 inch Timber Wolf blade extra but not installed.  Right after posting I decided to mount the new blade and guess what ... it cut like a dream! 

   I kept the original blade on for testing/learning but didn't realize it could be that bad.  So, the new blade is on!

   Thanks for the help,Steve

2. 
   Rich14 | Jun 26, 2006 05:31am | #17

   Throw the other blade away. It's worse than useless. Make sure you adjust the Timberwolf by Suffolk's "flutter" test method. If the explanation didn't come with the blade, you can read it on their web site.

3. 
   SteveV | Jun 26, 2006 05:36am | #18

   I am having trouble with that aspect.  I set my tension for a 1/2 inch blade.  When I pull the guides away the blade flutters no matter what the tension gets reset to.  So I left it at the machine setting for 1.2 in blades and reset the guides.  Does tension increase for wider blades?  BTW old blade is in the trash!

   Steve

4. 
   Rich14 | Jun 26, 2006 06:06am | #19

   "When I pull the guides away the blade flutters no matter what the tension gets reset to."That makes no sense, unless the tensioning screw is not tightening.If you apply enough tension, any blade will stop fluttering.Back all guides away. Apply as much tension as "normally" recommended for a blade of the size Timberwolf you're using. The blade will run without flutter. Then slowly reduce tension 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time until the blade just starts to flutter.Very slowly go back up in tension until the flutter stops (the tension will be somewhat above that at which flutter started - hysteresis effect). Then give it about 1/4 turn more. Reset the guides.Yes, tension needed is greater, the wider the band. But it's really very different than all the "standard" advice about this kind of thing. The correct tension is the lowest tension that lets the saw cut well. And it will cut beautifully at much lower tensions than the saw manufacturer has stamped on the tension screw housing.Another source of low-tension blades is BC Saw and Tool in Canada, http://www.bcsaw.com, (888) 251-2236. You have to call - can't order from the web site. The last time I bought, they were less than US $9 per blade and there was a 25% discount in lots of ten. That's way less than Timberwolf prices and they perform every bit as well.One of the best articles I have ever read on bandsaw set up and use is in FWW #173, Dec., 2004, pp 66-71, "Five Tips for Better Bandsawing," Michael Fortune. I have several highly regarded Bandsaw books. The FWW article has more useful, practical information and is the only one to really tell the story of blade tension, guides and tooth pitch to make the saw perform like a champ.The article's opening "call out" says, "Precise cuts are easier than you think. It doesn't take a high-end blade, high tension, replacement guides, or a special fence to get excellent results."

   Edited 6/25/2006 11:09 pm ET by Rich14

5. 
   SteveV | Jun 26, 2006 06:27am | #20

   You're right it didn't make sense.  I will check it out again tomorrow.  I will also check out that article.

   Steve

6. 
   LeChuck | Jun 26, 2006 09:08pm | #21

   This weekend I got a chance to spend more time in the workshop (bad experience cutting out a hole for my router insert plate). I adjusted the guides to what seems to be a mostly ok position (the wheels turn from time to time only, although the post doesn't seem to stay aligned when going up or down...), but there's one thing that is bugging me: When the machine is working, the blade goes slighthly back and forth. It is visible, and when it goes back it comes in contact with the back bearing and of course makes more noise. Is that a normal thing? I tensioned it a little above the 1/2" mark on the saw, pushed on the blade to make sure it is well tensioned and doesn't deflect too much, adjusted the guides...etc...Right after tensioning I also tracked the blade to put it at the center of the tire, however, it is completely in the middle (if we count the teeth) and the tracking knob becomes almost impossible to turn if I want to move the blade more. I am not sure if that's an issue or not.I cut a piece of acrylic with the bandsaw, and I'm glad cutting plastic is going to be very, very rare. Not a pleasant thing.

7. 
   Rich14 | Jun 26, 2006 11:15pm | #22

   "the post doesn't seem to stay aligned when going up or down"

   That's quite common on a lot of saws. It's not desireable, but that's the way it is. The mechanism is a place where many manufacturers cut corners.

   Adjust the guide height as needed, then adjust the guides. Usually, the side guides will be good all the way up and down, but the back guide will need adjustment every time you change height.

   "the blade goes slighthly back and forth. It is visible, and when it goes back it comes in contact with the back bearing and of course makes more noise. Is that a normal thing?"

   Yes. But you should be able to reduce the distance between the back of the blade and the bearing to .001". The "dollar bill" spacing trick gets you about .003-.004". You can get feeler gauges that get you down to .001. Cigarette paper is also about .001. After you get the idea with feeler gauges, you can set it by eye/feel alone.

   "I also tracked the blade to put it at the center of the tire, however, it is completely in the middle (if we count the teeth) and the tracking knob becomes almost impossible to turn if I want to move the blade more"

   Don't judge the center of the tire by looking at the top wheel on edge. Look at the wheel from the side. The blade is on the top of the tire when it is on the highest point of the curved profile and the front-back dimension of the blade is exactly perpendicular to the plane of the wheel (parallel to the plane of cutting).

   The tracking screw should be just about at the center of its travel when the upper wheel is correctly aligned for the blade to ride on the wheel crown. It sounds like you need to loosen things up and get them in a better relationship before using the tracking adjustment.

   Rich

   Edited 6/26/2006 4:26 pm ET by Rich14

8. 
   LeChuck | Jun 26, 2006 11:42pm | #23

   "Adjust the guide height as needed, then adjust the guides. Usually, the side guides will be good all the way up and down, but the back guide will need adjustment every time you change height."Actually it's moves sideways when going down. I haven't checked the back one though. I made it stay almost aligned by not tightening the post knob too much."Don't judge the center of the tire by looking at the top wheel on edge. Look at the wheel from the side. The blade is on the top of the tire when it is on the highest point of the curved profile and the front-back dimension of the blade is exactly perpendicular to the plane of the wheel (parallel to the plane of cutting)." I will read this again when I am not so tired :)As for tracking, it does seem weird that I am unable to turn the knob more. I need to look into how to untighten all this stuff. Too bad that requires so much work out of the box.

9. 
   Rennie | Jun 27, 2006 12:01am | #24

   As for tracking, it does seem weird that I am unable to turn the knob more.

   Does your machine have a locknut/jamnut on the adjusting shaft? Could be you're turning it into the nut and it won't go further. You'd have to back the locknut off to give the adjustment more travel.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright

10. 
    LeChuck | Jun 27, 2006 12:04am | #25

    No, I mean yes, it does have the locknut, but it is backed off far enough that it doesn't interfere...

11. 
    Rennie | Jun 27, 2006 12:22am | #26

    Hey, it was worth a shot - I judged you had probably already thought of it, but I felt it was worth a try. Sometimes it's the most obvious that gets away from us. Isn't that why every call to the tech support for your computer starts off with, "have you plugged in the computer?"Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright

12. 
    LeChuck | Jun 27, 2006 12:35am | #28

    "Isn't that why every call to the tech support for your computer starts off with, "have you plugged in the computer?"haha, yes, I used to be in computer support :)

13. 
    Rich14 | Jun 27, 2006 12:26am | #27

    The bad news is that you're having these problems. The good news is that you will be able to get things on track. I don't think there's a bandsaw made that can't be adjusted to work, and work very well.

    Bandsaws are a little more frustrating than other tools because they seem to really be tempermental.

    The article I mentioned is a big help. Excellent advice in there, all with very good pictures, done by a real expert on the machine.

    You might not believe it at this moment, but when you get these nagging problems under control, and learn the characteristics of the machine, it will seem so simple and reliable. It's my favorite machine in the shop.

    Rich

    Edited 6/26/2006 5:28 pm ET by Rich14

14. 
    LeChuck | Jun 27, 2006 12:47am | #29

    Rich, yes, I'm quite certain that I will get it to work right in the end. Right now I'm not complaining about a lack of performance, as I haven't *really* used it, but I like to be prepared. After work I'm dropping by AutoZone for a cheap set of feeler gauges and we'll try to get back to it tonight!Thanks.

15. 
    Rich14 | Jun 27, 2006 01:02am | #30

    Ha, ha. Take a break, get some sleep. It'll still be there tomorrow!

16. 
    forestgirl | Jun 27, 2006 07:09pm | #31

    " 'Don't judge the center of the tire by looking at the top wheel on edge. Look at the wheel from the side. The blade is on the top of the tire when it is on the highest point of the curved profile and the front-back dimension of the blade is exactly perpendicular to the plane of the wheel (parallel to the plane of cutting).'

    I will read this again when I am not so tired :)"

    I had to read this twice too.  But it's obvious once you "get it."  When the blade lies at the proper place on the curved wheel (looking at it from the side, as indicated), it forms a right-angle with the up-down plane of the wheel.  If the blade is too far toward the front, it points down; toward the back, it points up.

    My old G1019Z has the guide-post movement problem also, much the same way as yours from the description.  I consider it the price I paid to save several hundred dollars at the time I bought the saw (before Jet and Delta were making $400 saws).  I paid $350 or so for the saw, and the Jets and Deltas were running over $800 at the time.  Money was extreeeeeeeemly tight then.  It's quite possible the newish G0555 has solved that problem to some extent.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

17. 
    SteveV | Jun 28, 2006 04:42pm | #32

    Could this be a case where the tires need replacing?  If all seems to be tensioned and tracked correctly, then it could just be a worn tire.

     

    Steve

18. 
    Rich14 | Jun 28, 2006 05:47pm | #34

    Well, a bad tire might cause a small amount of vibration and movement of the band within the 2 side guides, once every wheel revolution. But flutter? Nah. Flutter is caused when the band tension is real low.

19. 
    EdHarrow | Jun 28, 2006 05:04pm | #33

    "Why in the world a manufacturer would ship anything but a component that would make their machine sing is a mystery to me. "

    Funny, I said the same with respect to the tires that came on SWMTMH's Subaru Forester.  They were about as grippy in the snow as greased owl poop.  Horrid.  Nearly criminal. 

    I use a Woodslicer.  Nice.  One of the causes of noise is that evenly spaced teeth create some harmonic issues, I think.  The same applies to hole saws - some manufacture hole saws where the tooth pitch (oh, do I really want to say that) varies, which cuts down on the harmonics.  No doubt someone here can explain the whys and wherefores better.

20. 
    Rich14 | Jun 28, 2006 05:48pm | #35

    Yeah, that reminds me, the tires that came on my Grizzly were horrible. I replaced them with polyurethane tires. Big improvement.

21. 
    LeChuck | Jul 03, 2006 07:02pm | #36

    Hello :)Well, I did get a set of feeler gauges, which only cost about 5 bucks, used them to check the run of my router + xtreme xtension, then used them on the bandsaw guides. I didn' use them for long, just a quick check, the got tired and did it by eye. I moved the post up and down for several cuts, and by giving the right amount of tightening to the post, I managed to keep the guides in (mostly) the right place. One doesnt really turn, the other one does sometimes.But really...it doesn't really matter until you actually use it. Since I was trying to make a zero clearance TS insert for my Delta TS350, I decided to go ahead and resaw a piece of scrap that was already flat and square (got a pile of scrap from someone). I think that piece was cherry but I'm not sure. Anyway, not a huge resaw, just a foot long, 4.5 inch wide piece of cherry which needed about 3/16" shaved off from a board that was less than 3/4" thick.I struggled with the fence for few minutes, trying to get it vertically and horizontally straight (terrible system), the decided to make it horizontally straight and not worry about the drift I saw mentioned everywhere. I put the cherry up there, used my jointer's flat plastic push pad to keep the board firmly against the bottom of the fence (which is not tall enough for that operation).I got just a tad of some kind of burning/black dust towards the beginning of the cut, some teeth marks (but I expected that, and I didn't do extremely well when I switched to the back to pulll the board, but other than that I'd say the cut was almost perfect. It stayed totally straight, giving me a constant resulting thickness, with just a very slight bow that might just come from board tension, or maybe it's from the cut, but frankly I expected to ruin it on the first try, and instead got the result I needed.And that was with the stock 1/2" - 5tpi blade, which is not a resaw blade.Pretty happy about this.

22. 
    Rich14 | Jul 03, 2006 08:30pm | #37

    It sounds like you're slowly getting there. All the little things add up. It really does matter that the resaw fence is square to the table and that it adequately supports the work. I think the cheap fences and guides that come on low-end bansaws are worse than nothing at all. No-one would ever tolerate the likes on a table saw. It's impossible to get them accurately set up. Good equipment is much less expensive than cheap equipment, in the long run. Shop made jigs and supports are worth the effort.

    A 5 TPI blade is too fine for resawing - the gullets fill up with sawdust and the blade really overheats, possibly ruining it very quickly. That's probably what the burning was.

    It's amazing what a 3 TPI blade does.

     

23. 
    LeChuck | Jul 03, 2006 08:37pm | #38

    Yeah, I think that next thing on the list is a good 3 TPI blade. Maybe one of the TimberWolf blades. That Woodslicer one looks really good, but can't find the specific size for the Craftsman bandsaw.

24. 
    LeChuck | Jul 03, 2006 11:18pm | #39

    By the way, with Timberwolf blades, is it recommended to go for their bi-metal ones?

25. 
    forestgirl | Jul 05, 2006 06:08pm | #41

    "By the way, with Timberwolf blades, is it recommended to go for their bi-metal ones?"  I would suggest "Not" -- just get their regular Swedish steel blades.  Maybe talk to a Suffolk tech about bi-metal, but for now I'd say just stick with their regular low-tension blades.

    PS:  There are plent of plans out there for making your own bandsaw fence, especially for resawing.  You might want to ask around about who's built one.

    forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-) 

    Edited 7/5/2006 11:10 am by forestgirl

26. 
    LeChuck | Jul 05, 2006 07:28pm | #42

    The regular blades it will be :)Thanks for the feedback.I willl look up the bandsaw fence. Right now I'm trying to figure out a fence for the router (too many things to do with to little time)...

4. 
   mudman | Jun 21, 2006 02:22am | #7

   My saw has bearing guides and I generally get them close enough that they start to roll with the blade, but don't roll all the time. Or if I very lightly tough the bearing it stops. So yes, they are rolling with the blade, but just barely.

   Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

1. 
   LeChuck | Jun 21, 2006 02:32am | #8

   Mike. That is mostly the way my guides were setup, but I did try to put them a bit closer. Will redo that. I think the noisiest one is the one at the back, but before I redo the guides setup, I think I need to look at the tracking of the blade as it seems to be slightly moving front-to-back. This is all experimenting until I know how to get this right since I haven't started on an actual project yet, just cut a few things here and there. I'm planning on buying an aftermarket blade, but not clear on which one that would be. the current stock blade is a 1/2 inch 5tpi, I believe 0 rake angle.

5. 
   pins | Jul 03, 2006 11:35pm | #40

   I also have an old Crapsman and it cuts OK w/Timberwolf blades and I can resaw as much as I can raise the guide. I just skimmed the replies and I didn't notice that anybody mentioned that before you do anything else you need to insure that the wheels are plumb, using a straight edge, and there is a screw in the center of the upper wheel for adjusting it.

   Below find a fix for the knob that adjusts tension. Not cute, but saves a lot of time, and the vertical on the right spins freely.

   John