Advice – building own kitchen cabinets
I’m a few weeks out from starting my kitchen renovation and all the quotes I have received for cabinets are through the roof. What I am seriously considering at this point is going with some ready-to-assemble cabinet boxes (cabparts.com or from a local production millworker I know), Blum Tandembox for all the drawer boxes, and cutting and finishing the doors myself – doors and drawer fronts are just slabs, veneered/edgebanded plywood. I figure I can get a beautiful kitchen like the ones I have seen in local showrooms for a fraction of the cost they are trying to charge me.
I’m hoping someone has a similar experience with Blum Tandembox and assembling their own kitchen cabs from different sources and wants to share their experiences/thoughts.
A little background on me — I am an interior designer now (retail stores), but grew up renovating houses and I do design and build my own furniture – I would consider my skill level as a carpenter as well above average and as a cabinet-maker at right about average. I used to work out of my father’s well-appointed shop – but since I have moved I have not set up my own yet – my Unisaw/Jointer/Drill Press/Radial & Mitre saws are sitting in my garage waiting to get set up. I have all of the CAD skills I need to plan out the cabinetry details – though I am a little nervous about setting the door hinges and securing the drawer fronts. With the slab drawer/door fronts all of the seems need to be perfect to achieve the look I want. I’m hoping the Blum drilling jig will take out a lot of the guesswork. I’m also expecting to get their Dynaplan software in the next day or so.
My biggest concern is having the time to do it when I have a full-time job and I am doing 90% of the construction work myself (new floors, window re-location, fireplace re-facing, plumbing re-location, etc…) – the only thing I am subbing out is the electrical. Also remember that I have one of those “significant others” thats significantly short on the patience front
Sorry for the long post – just hoping to tap into all the wisdom out there.
Replies
I used to use Cabparts for my cabinet boxes. I also used them for my drawer boxes. They were very friendly and easy to deal with. Their boxes were quick and easy to put together. You can have them use a wood veneer to edge band the boxes. You may be able to have them supply the edgebanded flat ply doors. I know they will do melamine. I quit using them because I realized if I bought a line boring machine I could save myself a chunk of change by doing the boxes myself. Another thought is to buy your doors from a door manufacturer. It seems like if you are doing a lot of that other stuff yourself, you can save yourself some time, headaches and possible your relationship by just buying everything and putting it together yourself. Just my $0.02 worth. Good luck.
"I figure I can get a beautiful kitchen like the ones I have seen in local showrooms for a fraction of the cost they are trying to charge me."
I don't think I'd take that bet. Yes, you can save on the labor costs, but the material cost will be as much or more than what they charge, and you'll be spending a lot more time in fabrication than they would. So you can definitely save some money, but unles you really skimp on the quality, your cabinets will cost considerably more than a "fraction" of what they charge.
About four years ago, I received a quote from Neil Kelly Cabinets for a kitchen with about 44' of lower cabinets and 16' of upper cabinets. I was completely floored by how low their price was: $15,000, including shipping, but not installation (and no countertops).
-Steve
Thanks for the replies,Bruce - the reason I was thinking I would do the drawer fronts and doors is so I could have complete control of the graining (I am going horizontal with the grain on most parts). My uncertainty about how much I should take on is exactly why I have posted here. If 10 of 10 people tell me I'm crazy then I have my answer.Steve - so far the quotes I have received for about 44 total feet (base + wall + doubling the lin. feet for my full height cabs) - have been $27k and $35k. My budget for cabinets is ideally $15k so obvioulsy something needs to give. I know I still have a lot of homework to do figuring out the raw materials - but as luck would have it this months Fine Homebuilding has an article on a budget kitchen remodel and the homeowners said they saved $15k by sourcing all the cabinet parts and assembling it themselves. I had been considering this for a few weeks and that article really put some wind in my sails.keep the thoughts coming
I dont know about you guys or how big you kitchens are but if you can spend anything close to the better part of 15K building your own cabinets out of almost anywood you want (most common kitchens are out of Oak, Cherry or Maple) then you should look at a better place to buy your wood.
I miss remember what I spent on my wood and such but I was no even close (off hand I would say a few grand tops) and they are built out of either solid cherry or cherry ply (depending on what part) and the draws are solid wood also (secondary woods on that If I recall I used poplar)
I have nice pulls and good hardware.
But I guess it all depends.
The down side is that it can take a good amount of time to built them (time i money) but I have more time then money so...
Doug Meyer
DB, a little female perspective here (though it seems the guys know the scoop with SWMBO/LOYL). First of all, with the amazing amount of work you're already taking on (floors, mantle, plumbing, etc.) and a full-time job, it's incredible that you can get that stuff done and still get any sleep. We've done floors recently in a very small house, and I couldn't believe how long it took, and how hard it wore on the knees and backs.
I totally understand the concept of a budget. Question is, is it a self-imposed budget (could be bigger if you'd let it be bigger) or is it a necessary, no-way-to-expand-it budget?? If it's the former, well sounds like you'll have to do the kitchen and SWMBO should understand and tough out the next few months (do they need to be done by the holidays? Yikes.)
If it's a self-imposed budget, second thoughts are in order. You're already doing a tremendous amount of work (especially if you add it onto the 40 hours of "job" you're doing), and have saved a corresponding amount of money. Yes, it's hard to spend 2x the cost of materials for something you could do yourself, but it's not that the builders are ripping you off -- they're making a living. And they are (hopefully) experts at that particular project. Here's where the female perspective comes in: It is extreeeeeeemly frustrating to have a partner who absolutely insists and doing darned near everything himself to save money when it leaves the household in a complete uproar and non-functional during the project.
At some point in time, it's highly advisable to just get the project done as quickly as possible and still get the quality you want. Life needs to go on. Again, if the $$ is not there, it's a different story, but if it is there, it's meant to be spent, especially when you get the earlier onset of peace and quiet, a pretty kitchen and the ability to cook and serve dinner in a lovely environment.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/20/2007 11:12 am by forestgirl
Very wise reply forest girl. I too have embarked on a million and one projects in the fixer upper we bought. The spouse knew what she was getting into when we bought the place so she doesn't gripe much. For me it's a matter of $$, there isn't any. Or only enough to buy the materials. Even if there wqas enough cash I'd probably be stubborn anyways and have a hard time letting go. In my situation it's more a matter of creativity in that I'm a design junkie and everything around here is artsy fartsy and would be really expensive to have someone else try to replicate what I've done or intend to do.
There's certainly nothing wrong with DIY, sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's "fun" (maybe, depending on your POV). I can certainly understand why you're going that route, both necessity-wise and creativity-wise. But sometimes, something has to give. My husband has a hard time paying anybody to do anything, even though he's a professional and has been paid big bucks as a consultant. Go figure.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Design:
It seems to me that you are trying to balance the cash cost of your cabinets and the amount of time you need to spend. The further you go upstream in the cabinet value chain, the more cash you will save. There is, of course, no free lunch and you will need to spend more time and there will be tooling costs as well. Not to mention the impatience factor of SWMBO.
I have started with rough lumber (12/4 cherry) and 8x4 sheet goods so the cash cost of my kitchen is around $3,000 (33 linear feet counting top and bottom runs separately). The style we wanted was inset doors and drawers, all drawers, except under the sink, and beaded face frames. Draw fronts are frame and panel, drawers are maple with dovetail joints front and back and undermount slides. Finish is catalyzed lacquer hand rubbed. The downside of all this is that it takes time.
One thing that might ameliorate the impatience factor is a working sink - even one of those free-standing utility sinks temporarily plumbed in will make life very bearable along with cheap tables from Office Depot. We were seven months without a sink (didn't think of the utility sink until it was too late!). The pot filler saved the day!
Once you know the look and style you want, I suggest you establish a time and tool budget, then look for the most economical way of filling it. In this way your options will narrow very quickly.
Good luck with your project.
Hastings
PS Your tool budget will be somewhat offset by the cab parts. In this way you can get "free" tools, free in the sense of out of pocket, but not of your time.
Edited 9/20/2007 10:04 am ET by Hastings
Have you considered Ikea?
Hi Designbuilder:
Assuming you have the ability, I think it all hinges on your time frame for finishing the project, the immediacy of the need for replacing the old cabinets and your wife's patience.
I am an amateur woodworker who has had no formal training in the art of woodworking. I have honed an ability over the years and have built everything from cabinets to desks,book cases, a two car attached garage and even a 22 foot cabin cruiser that required 10,000 screws. I can say that there is nothing more satisfying than the feeling you get when you are finished and you stand there with arms folded, admiring what your own talents have created. It is especially rewarding later on after you retire, as I have, to be able to look back on your creations over the years and enjoy them all over again.
Although I try saving money by drying some of my own wood from the occasional log I am able to come by and have sawn up, I often purchase lumber as well.
I have no doubt that you can buy a manufactured cabinet at a price that is cheaper than what you can build from purchased lumber. For a while, it will look good. If you appreciate quality and proper woodworking techniques however, you won't be able to purchase the same quality cabinet that you can build yourself. They use every short cut they can find to cheapen the price and hurry up the job.
Hope this helps in making your decision.
Regards, Jigmaker
I am almost in the same boat you are. We've just "finished" building our house. I have to complete all the woodwork/built-ins, finish 2 full baths (with rough-in provided), do all the interior trims. I just finished installing our kitchen cabinets 2 weeks ago, and now I just finished all tile work (plus walk-in shower) for one bath and placed the toilet. We moved in 1.5 years ago, AND, I have a complete fully stocked 1,500 sf shop, AND, my other job is being the duty parent. I had expected to be done with the house in 1 year.
My point is I know you have a lot on your plate and you seem to be not as well positioned to tackle your tasks. If you could live with 2x4 "furniture" and "cabinets" like we did, then you got time on your side to build as you please. In my case I wanted cabinet doors with marquetry work to reflect the nature outside our windows, so it had to be custom. But frankly I am tired of looking at raw drywall edges and things around the house waiting for a place to be put in.
I built cheaply so I got some savings, but I hear Blum Tandembox and I doubt if your savings will be worth the hassle. My SWMBO and I like the challenge of stretching our money, so that plays into our game plan.
Because time is your main concern, look at hybrid solutions, such as buying the components and doing assembly yourself. Just my suggestions, worth price you paid for it.
But frankly I am tired of looking at raw drywall edges and things around the house waiting for a place to be put in.I built cheaply so I got some savings, but I hear Blum Tandembox and I doubt if your savings will be worth the hassle. My SWMBO and I like the challenge of stretching our money, so that plays into our game plan.Because time is your main concern, look at hybrid solutions, such as buying the components and doing assembly yourself. Just my suggestions, worth price you paid for it.
RIGHT ON At least from My experience..First.... Drywall reflects light from a fireplace nicely.. Suggest you and your mate spend ALOT of time there before worrying about finishing anything 'house' related.Second.. UNLESS you have 'sources' I doubt you will be able to purchase cabinet grade 'whatever' at anywhere near the price of a cabinet shop.Third.. Long ago I got some 'hybrid solutions'.. Best thing I ever did. There is no way I could have built anything better 'At the price I had to pay'
Do you want to do it the hard way or the easy way? I did it the hard way. Bought a 100 yr old house with NO kitchen cabinets. Had a sink on one wall, a range with what looked like an office credenza on another wall, and a refrigerator. Bought the book "Cabinets & Built-Ins" from Creative Homeowner Press. I used melamine-coated MDF for the cabinets - cheap and locally available. 2 sawhorses on the deck, circular saw, router, and biscuit joiner. Built my own cabinets, my wife painted the face frames and doors, and we installed them. Bought a sink and gave the dimensions to the local building supply, they delivered a countertop, the right size, finished ends, and the sink cutout done. The project took about 6 months working week-ends and evenings when I wasn't on the road. No, I never built a cabinet in my life until this project. One "oops" (racked when I glued it together), is hanging in the garage. That was 9 years ago. They're looking a little shabby now, and we're eyeing some nice, hardwood veneer plywood to tackle the job again. The doors look like frame and panel, but they're rabbetted on the back side to hold a pane of glass (lower cabs) or beaded plywood (upper cabs). We tried to keep the cabinets 'in theme' with the age of the house and from what I remembered from the kitchen on the farm where I grew up. Still, not bad for an amateur.
Edited 9/22/2007 7:21 pm ET by Ray
(Long)
DesignBuild:
Kitchen cabinets are not hard to build. Nice kitchen cabinets take time. It depends on what you want. There is no way that I could compete with a cabinet shop or Lowes when it comes to a set of basic cabinets. They get their wood/materials a lot cheaper and they have mass production facilities on there side (try building a car at home from scratch...). That being the case, the more high-end you want, the more you can save yourself in $$ (less in time!).
Think about furniture. If you want a coffee table cheap, go to Ikea. They can often times sell the whole table for less than I can buy the wood. If you want something that's very nice, go to a gallery and pay top shelf price - or learn to build it yourself. I have a coffee table that's not available in any Ikea. It has a quilted maple surface and fold up wings. It would cost $1k in a store. I wanted a Maloof rocking chair. I didn't have $60k to buy one (if available anywhere?). A knockoff was about $5k. I took a week long woodworking course out-of-state, bought the tools and walnut for $2k.
The same is true of your kitchen. You cannot compete with the price of an "off the shelf" KitchenAid or something like that. They produce them too cheap. On the other hand, if you were pricing out custom cabinets or your kitchen has atypical spaces, then putting it together is not hard.
I've been self taught for 10 years (with the exception of that one class). I've done a couple of kitchens, laundry rooms and other projects. Each one is better done than the last (as are all of my woodworking projects). Over time, I've learned new tricks by reading and doing. Making faceframes an extra 1/4" wide to adjoin with other ones. Buying 5/4 wood to take down to 3/4", instead of trying to flatten the 4/4 that's coming out of mills now-a-days.
My brother had be re-surface his whole kitchen last winter. It was a custom house from the 1960s and the cabinets were dated. I did all of the new cabinet doors for $500; including tooling, hardware and wood. This was with extras that he didn't have before (pots & pans drawers, etc). He could have gone to Lowes and paid about the same i'd guess, but I don't think that they would have been as nice.
If you want melamine or photofinish particleboard cabinets, go to Lowes or HD. Cheap. If you want plywood, that will cost more and you'd likely be able to do it as cheap on your own. Time is another matter. As forrestgirl said, how willing is your wife going to be? My brothers cabinet doors took 42 hours to complete. To do the carcass construction would have taken another 40+ hours.
When I re-do my kitchen, it will be in cherry and mostly resurfacing the exsisting cabinets, which function nicely. I've already re-done what I didn't like (pull out pantry drawers on 100# slides). It will cost significantly less than a new kitchen. I will have to do it one cabinet at a time, or take two weeks vacation to do them right.
My thoughts: If you are already busy and don't have a kitchen to work in? Buy them new and save yourself the hassle and maybe your marriage. Over time, hone your skills. When you want that custom kitchen, re-model it yourself and save the $$ for new tools!
Rod
Building my own kitchen cabinets was a great experience, but we had the old kitchen to use while I built the cabinets. It took months of weekends, but so long as I worked at it every weekend, the steady progress was motivation to keep going. They were my first cabinets, so the learning curve was steep at times, but it was very satisfying and my wife was and remains, thrilled. One nice aspect to doing it yourself is the ability to add little custom features, such as a three inch wide spice cabinet that nicely filled an available space. I was able to use really nice hardware (Blum Tandem slides, Brusso pulls, etc.) and still spent much less than I would have spent on comparable purchased cabinets. I opted to build everything, i.e. boxes, drawers, doors.
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smslaw,
Very nice kitchen! Are those soapstone countertops? Did you sub out for those, or DIY the counters? If DIY, where did you get the soapstone? I am in the final phases of a custom built kitchen for the little woman. I am having a heck of a time getting soapstone for the countertops. The local countertop company put a premium over the cost of "level 4" stone. That's just crazy in my book.Didn't mean to hijack the thread.
--joejoe
Yes, it's soapstone. They were fabricated and installed by Maine Soapstone in Fort Fairfield ME. They did a nice job and their quote was about half that of the local, high end countertop vendor. It makes a great countertop. Of course, color is very limited and a glossy finish is out.
Soapstone can be a do it yourself project, as the stone is softer than granite and can be worked with woodworking tools.
Edited 9/25/2007 7:18 am ET by smslaw
"Soapstone can be a do it yourself project, as the stone is softer than granite and can be worked with woodworking tools."
Soapstone is wonderful stuff. Easily worked, less porous than even granite, can be left natural or oiled for a darker appearance, withstands high temps and is a good radiator for use in fireplaces, stoves, etc. . . the list goes on and on. It's a wonder to me that it's not more widely available. Around my neck of the woods, it is not locally available, but must be ordered from one of the few dealers, such as the one in Maine, which limits your options.
Nice work on the kitchen.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thanks. I think soapstone is not used more because you don't get a highly polished surface and of course there is a very limited color selection. We oil it once in a while, but it really desn't need any care.
M. Teixeira (spell?) is a source for do it yourselfers. They are in New Jersey. Gary Sayer at Maine Soapstone was great to work with, but I don't know if they travel to PA.
Thanks for the info. I heard of the distributor in New Jersey and plan on a trip there. I just find it amazing that a material that is often mined in the northeast US and Canada can cost double what a piece of granite shipped from India costs. The local fabricator tried his hardest to talk my wife out of soapstone, but he had no idea whom he was up against.now if only I had a few nephews with strong backs.....--joejoe
As a hobbyist woodworker I have built four kitchens during our 47 years together - point being we survived the process. I highly recommend that you consider the epoxy acryllic pre-finished plywood for cases - saves a ton of finishing and is very durable. In my last one my wife was only w/o full use of her conveniences for three days because of the way we phased the project. Fronts are spalted birch panels with 1/4 sawn birch frames. I'd post a photo but I'm on the road.
"...because of the way we phased the project...." Could you give a brief description??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You ask a lot - brief description of how we phaised our kitchen project, she says.
Kitchen is essentially a galley style that had the classic sink below a window where we decided to put a door to the deck (north). We pulled out the old kitchen on the west wall that was only cupboards. Installed the new on that wall that now included a wall oven, fridge space, and micro above the oven. That gave us alternate cooking. Pulled the cupboards off the east wall leaving the sink in place under the wondow. Total rebuild including plumbing and wiring on east wall. Installed cases including new sink, d/w and cooktop. Pulled out the old sink and plumbed the new sink and d/w in one day. Then my wife's face really lit up! Cut the door opening and built my first G & G door to fill the hole. A much better result from my first kitchen 40 years ago when my ever lov'n cooked turkey dinner on jenaire with no running water and open studs every where.
Thanks! Sounds similar to what I'd love to do with our small kitchen, but I doubt I could get the budget for it. Ours goes, clockwise, (1) counter space, sink, counter/corner; (2) counter under window--corner; (3) stove, refrigerator. The stove an 'fridge are on a short wall, making for a too-small refrigerator. I would really like to have the sink under the window and the 'fridge and stove on the long wall so we could have a bigger 'fridge (we shop alot at Costco, and hubby can't resist "deal" on big packages of meat!).
Oh well, maybe the next house. But thanks for the explanation.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I was on the road during this discussion but am back home now. Here's a couple of photo's during construction. the second picture shows my method of clamping molding to a very uneven ceiling using liquid glue - a fabulous product.
Thanks, Stanley. Hey, I love the trim clamps! Looks like some kind of living sculpture!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Designbuild
I am weekend woodworker and I have done 2 kitchens in the last few years.
Simple 3/4" birch veneer boxes with 1/4" backs and 3/4" maple veneer flat slab fronts. Made the drawers out of 1/2" birch veneer ply. Blum hardware for slides and hinges.
Each had about 24' base cabinets and 24' of upper cabinets and a few specility cabinets to boot. One had 3 drawer units and the other had 5. 3 of the 5 were 36" wide for pots and pans.
Did them on weekends.
The second on and probably more complicated on was for our new apartment. The contractor doing the rest of the renovation would not install the cabinets so I did. Took about 4 hours.
Total cost about $3,000 plus most weekends from December to middle of February.
ASK
I was in a similar situation - bigbox cabs were junk, and after a couple of quotes well past $7k for a 8x10 kitchen I rolled up my sleeves and dove in. All birch ply, prefinished. doors and drawer faces are sold maple. The key was that the space demanded a custom look to really take advantage of the space with the garden window (the entire kitchen was rotated 90 degrees clockwise, necessitating moving the water+waste and gas lines as well as vent ducting and heat ducting). The result: pics attached.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff91/bradgobble/kitchen.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff91/bradgobble/kitchenandwindow.jpg
Looks great and similar to ours. We didn't have to move any pipes.
I did flat panel (Maple veneer) door and drawer fronts. Black granite slab counters and black granite tiles on the floor and backsplashes.
My kids are thinking of selling their house and moving. I might get to do #3 in the next year or so.
Unfortunately my computer doesn't permit me to attach pictures to these posts so I can share my pictures with you.
ASK
I'm in the middle of this myself - had a pro come in and do the demo and structural/electrical/plumbing work, and left us with a drywalled empty room. It's a cost thing for us; for what I'm putting in to the cabinets I'm building, I could have gotten the cheapest cabinets that the big box stores sell (the ones with exposed MDF edges on the doors - shudder).
My cabinets are all baltic birch plywood, with a frameless, separate base design that was in FHB a couple of years ago. For the lowers, I did all drawer units, except for the sink base, a corner, and a ~12" wide little filler cabinet. I haven't decided how I'll do the fronts for those yet. For the uppers, which I'm finally getting into now, I'm figuring on buying aluminum-framed glass doors, as I've got a source for them for cheap. My full-extension drawer slides all came from Menards during their occasional bag sales; my Blum hinges came from the scrap bin at my job.
I also did my own laminate counters with nice maple edging. I was amazed at how easy that was; with my old house and way out of whack walls, postformed counters would have ended up a cobbled up mess.
The upside for me has been better quality for the same money, and the general satisfaction of the thing - it's been fun and educational. The downside is the slowness of it. Most of that's due to priorities - this summer I spend training for my bike ride (see my sig), and in winter it's too cold to work much in my garage shop, so this fall I'm bangin' away as much as I can. I focused on getting a sink and dishwasher right away; there's no motivation like doing dishes in the bathtub.
did
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In the middle of doing mine, plus bathroom vanities, right now. I bought 3/4" birch ply, A1 shop grade, for the carcases (a couple sheets of cherry for end panels and maple for bath vanities), 1/2" A1 shop for backs, and 1/4" and 1/2" baltic birch for drawer bottoms and sides. I've been having my father and brother help with cutting and assembly. I bought an EZ-guide for my circ saw, and a Kreg jig. Face frames and fronts are cherry sawn on my own Woodmizer. I am doing cabinet doors in the kitchen as a flat Shaker panel out of butternut with a cherry frame. Bathroom vanities are curly maple frames and doors with cherry raised panels. All doors and drawers are inset, so I am using non-mortise nickel-plated hinges from Woodworker's Hardware, and K-V full-extension self-closing drawer slides for all the drawers. I got antiqued nickel cup pulls off eBay for a couple bucks each.
I have about 50 feet of base cabinets including vanities, and one large pantry cabinet. My kitchen design does not use upper cabinets. So far, I've spent about $3100 on materials, and I will have quite a bit of plywood left over for a home office project and some basement shelving.
Countertops will be soapstone from Green Mountain Soapstone in Castleton, VT. They are charging me $54 a square foot, I supply the templates (1/4" luan) and I have to pick it up from their facility. They fabricate 100%, including edge treatments, sink cutouts and holes, and reinforcing the sink edge. Also they provide adhesive for seams.
The whole kitchen, no labor, with counters will be about $7500 by the time I'm done. I have another $7000 in appliances in it.
Hi,
I am 80% done with a Kitchen makeover and I am doing all the face frames and drawers. I am using the Blum tamdum plus and they are great. It is critical to get the exact measurement,but once you get it right they are a breeze. My local Blum dealer gave me all the tips on sizing the drawers and they just fall into place. I am a full time FP and while this takes time, Its worth the wait .
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