Advice from men in the cabinet business!
loucarabasi
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hey Guys, I have a dilemma: I have a radial arm saw in my current shop. I am thinking of doing away with it and going with a well built sliding compound miter saw. My reasons are: 1 My 12” delta only has 12” of travel,2 I really only use it to rough size lumber out of the rack, 3 the built in bench top has to be 36” wide out from the wall. I’m trying to save some space because I am moving into a smaller shop.
Are there other things I should consider before I say good bye to it?
Thanks, Lou
Edited 4/3/2007 5:45 am ET by loucarabasi
Replies
It sounds like dust collection isn't the issue after all, but more a matter of space for your saw. I'm not a man in the cabinet business, but it would seem to me, that if you don't have 36" of space from the wall in your new shop, and your saw requires 36", you can't put your saw into the shop.
If you have a SCMS and a TS, the only thing a radial arm is much good for these days is cross cut dados.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Lou,
I did the exact same thing three years ago - and never looked back. I never used the radial arm for more than rough cutting lumber to approximate length, and when I bought a 10 inch Makita sliding miter saw it instantly gave me much greater precision and new capabilities that the radial arm didn't offer.
The radial arm I had was an inexpensive Black and Decker and wouldn't hold its settings for love nor money. So I just locked it in (approximately) 90 degree mode and left it there. It, too, only offered a 12 inch wide cut, and the Makita matched that.
I know there are ways to use a radial arm that I never explored. But given the inability of my saw to hold different settings very well I doubt using those capabilities would have done much good anyway. So this changeover really worked well for me.
One thing you might look into is that some of the newer sliding miter saws on the market don't demand as much front-to-back space as the older ones, like mine, do. FWW, or was it FHB, had an article on at least one of these saws a few months ago. If you're short on space, that could be a good way to go.
I've just got a flexible hose hooked up to the port where the bag used to attach on my saw. That goes to a dedicated shop vac located right under the saw and it's table. This arrangement works reasonably well at collecting the majority of the dust, though a secondary dust hood behind the saw would work even better. I'm thinking of fabricating a larger dust port that I could attach to the intake port right behind the blade so the shop vac would suck up more of the dust and chips. Zolton
I have a SCMS which used to have a prominent place in my shop, but it now is in the shed and only gets pulled out to go to installation jobs when I'm installing crown moulding. Darn near everything (except crown) that a SCMS does can be done as well by a table saw. I have to have a table saw, and don't want to afford the floor space for the redundant SCMS.
Radial arm saws, Lou, are no good if you want to do accurate work (IMO) . I've owned a couple down through the years. Too much play and movement . Never regretted getting rid of mine. That said you would have to closely check the dimensions of the particular SCMS you are interested in and compare it to your radial arm. But I have found they take up about the same amount of room. If you're only going to use it to rough size stock, I don't think you'll gain much.
Paul
I'm curious...are there any women in the cabinet business?
Ron (with tongue firmly planted in cheek!)
Yes,
But he only wants advice from men.
Rich
Now that you trashed your RAS & its inability to hold to any settings, Maybe you can list it for sale in the forums classifieds LOL.
I'm with everyone else, get a good SCMS, you won't regret it at all.
Good luck,
Paul
Lou
Like others, I ditched my radial arm saw when I moved into my new shop 3 years ago. I was only using it for rough cutting, and accomplish that with a circular saw or miter saw. Any joinery that can be made with the radial saw can be made better with other tools that take up no more space than the top of your workbench, so sell it. You won't miss it.
Jeff
I had an excellent radial arm saw that was given to me (Sears brand) and it was a good all around radial. I used it only for cutting rough stock lumber. It used up valuable floor space, made a mess, etc..... (the most useless tool I ever owned). When I got rid of it, I replaced it with a scms and never looked back. But before you buy that new scms, research it and DO NOT buy a cheapy. Most of the saws I see on installs are Dewalt and Makita. Here in Canada these saws price out at $800.00 on average so compare, you don't necessarily have to get the brands mentioned. The Rigid model seems to be pretty decent also for less too, good luck.
Crpntr 5
I Have made my decision< For sale: 12 Delta radial arm saw, Like new, runs great, takes up too much room, hard to dust collect,It can take your hand off in seconds flat,Oh and the height adjustment handle will tear your hip bone off every time you walk by it.
Anybody want it? (for a small cost)
-Lou
There seems to be a large disconnect between good radial arm saws and junk. I have a good radial arm and a good scms. They are two different machines used for different purposes. My radial arm has an induction motor and will run as long as the switch is on and cut copious quantities of thick wood. The scms (makita 1013) is very accurate but I would never dream of leaving the motor on for a half an hour while I trim the ends off a couple hundred pieces of 4/4 x 9 material.------------------------------------
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."---------------Samuel P. Huntington
My radial arm is a 50 year old Dewalt, more modern ones I know to be good are Omga and the Original Saw Company. The cuts I use the radial arm for have to be nuts on, it does it every time. Don't write off the radial arm because all you have used are junk marketed to garage woodworkers.------------------------------------
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."---------------Samuel P. Huntington
Hi d ,
My RAS is a 12 " Rockwell that is about 25 - 30 years old . As you said the scms is a different tool with distinctly different uses and a few of the same ones . I take the 1013 out on the job to cut crown and trim and such but I don't take the RAS . The majority of folks have as you said perhaps only used the cheapo homeowner models and never the real thing .
A big difference certainly exists , I cut all my face frame stock on the ras not the 1013 and may leave it run for a while at a time as well as the ts .
dusty
The only motor I would leave running for any appreciable period is my air filter. I made a decision years ago that if I started to leave my table saw or anything else running for convenience while I fetched another piece of wood, I would eventually cut myself.
Sasquatch ,
Just out of curiosity ,
Do you make a living from your woodwork ?
dusty
No.
I am retired.
I started working with wood around 1967, but rarely as a profession. I have framed, remodeled, fixed, improved, repaired, and even built a little furniture since then, more or less on a continuous basis, sometimes out of necessity, but mostly out of love for the work.
At present, I am building my sixth shop in my basement as I do a complete remodel/renovation of my house. I am getting very good at that because of my many moves over the years. Probably 70% of my woodworking effort gets put into building my shops. I fear I will never be able to build a perfect shop.
I have had many close calls with cutting tools over the years, probably starting with when a lathe grabbed my gouge in high school woodshop in 1965. I have been very fortunate since then in spite of about twenty or more incidents which could have ended my hobby, if not my life. When I get into my work, I want to leave the drill press running, the table saw running, the router running, the band saw running, and so on.
At some point, years ago, as my hand brushed close to a blade, or my shirtsleeve came near a spinning bit, I picked up on the danger and made a decision. It is not too much trouble for me to hit a start or a stop switch. Of all the tools I have used, I only wore the brushes out twice on my DeWalt SCMS. The starting and stopping has not hurt any of my other tools.
I made 250 cuts on the radial arm today, a fairly typical day. That 250 starts and stops would be pretty hard on the swich, brushes and motor as well as the gears on a universal motor. With proper workflow planning you should not have to stop to fetch wood, the radial arm has a retractor on it that homes the blade. You would have to be mighty careless , I daresay you would almost have to intentionally stick your hand in the blade to get hurt.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
"I made 250 cuts on the radial arm today, a fairly typical day. That 250 starts and stops would be pretty hard on the swich, brushes and motor as well as the gears on a universal motor"
Maybe so, but I'll lay even money that each time you went to the RAS you were doing 10, 15 maybe 25 cuts in a row. The idea of not switching off gives me the willies - it is just asking for an accident
"With proper workflow planning you should not have to stop to fetch wood, the radial arm has a retractor on it that homes the blade. You would have to be mighty careless , I daresay you would almost have to intentionally stick your hand in the blade to get hurt."
I'd say the RAS should have an automatic retractor. Not all do and some people set-up their fences a tad further back to sneak an extra 2 or 3 inches of cross cut. The only injury I've ever had in more than 30 years on RASs was from just such a moronically stupid, dangerous set-up.
I can understand why people say the RAS isn't accurate - those are the guys who've never used an industrial size RAS like the Original Saw Co offerings or a Wadkin BRA or the Italian Stromab or Maggi machines. They are all rock solid and retain their settings. The difference is actually all in the stiffness of the tables. Consumer models can flex at the base of the column because the sheet metal is just inadequate. Beef it up and things get a lot more accurate.
Scrit
Scrit, most folk here base their opinion of the radial arm saw on the light weight B$ D type that cursed the home woodworm legions in the past.The real thing is a mighty fine machine and well worth the space in a home shop, but being industrial quality not too many can afford one, and fewer would want to buy second hand and or re-build one these days. Shiney and new is the order of the day it seems.
I think the difference is more than just the rigidity of the table structure. In fact the real difference apart from motor power and saw diameter is the rigidity of the arm and especially the sliding support bearings for this. That Wadkin you mention has a superior system involving hardened rods .
I also think these machines are comparatively safe, but no machine will forgive a combination of bad luck and idiocy.The reputation for being dangerous that was acquired by the DIY version should not be attached to the real thing.
Philip Marcou
Philip;
I agree with all the points you raised and would add that the table is the easiest part for the manufacturer to get right. In terms of cost to manufacture the column and arm are far more expensive to get right. A crappy table can be corrected by the user, the rest not so much.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
"I think the difference is more than just the rigidity of the table structure. In fact the real difference apart from motor power and saw diameter is the rigidity of the arm and especially the sliding support bearings for this."
Well I have two RASs in a commercial setting, a DW 1751 (Italian consumer model) and an industrial DW1420s (14in, 5HP, 8 bearings in the head) so I can compare them side by side. One of the mods I made was to throw away the cheap tin base of the DW1751 and have a new base fabricated. That has cured most of the machine's ills - other than a lack of power and not quite enough rigidity in a 3-bearing carraige. Suffice to say it's a lot better than it was and doesn't automatically go out of alignment if I do decide to make a mitre cut.
"That Wadkin you mention has a superior system involving hardened rods."
The same is true of the Stromab and Maggi machines. Do you know if the Original saw machines are like that? I've had an arm wear out on a deWalt before so the next RAS will be a Wadkin, Stromab or Maggi.
I think what you say about people's perceptions being based on under-engineered lightweight stuff is true. It's the same as driving a Suzuki jeep then using one test drive to conclude that a Land-Rover couldn't traverse the Darien Gap!
Scrit
Hi Scrit, to answer your question on Original saws-I don't know about them. Another good radial was made by Wilson (British)- I have one. Comparativeley crude, but very strong, powerful , and the arm guide bearing system well built. Probably findable at old machinery grave yards?Philip Marcou
Do you mean the old LCV with a round arm? Not all that common nowadays. Wilson started to go into decline in the late 1960s and finally went bump during the 1990s so most of their stuff you see secondhand is 30+ years old. Pity, really, as they arguably made more modern/better planer/thicknessers than Wadkin did (e.g. parallelogram adjusters when Wadkin were still messing around with gibs and ways) and their tenoners were more advanced as well, but some of their later products, such as the spindle moulders, were a bit second rate.
Scrit
Scrit- it has a half round arm fabricated steel with two steel rectangular cross-section rods which are supported on ball bearings.You can sort of see it in these pictures.Philip Marcou
Interesting machine. I thought it would be more like the Wadkin CK/deWalt R1100, instead it's like the Wadkin CC crosscut saw. Thank you for sharing that. Somethingh else I've got to investigate.....
Scrit
You would lose your bet.... my cuts are all in a row. I agree about the retractor..... I don't move my fence back..... My old Dewalt is virtually identical to the Original Saw Companys...... I am a production shop, it would make no sense to break the saw run up into smaller pieces. I stand by my statement that a good radial arm saw is a more capable tool for repetitive crosscuts than an induction miter saw or SCMS.
As far as people moving the fence to gain more crosscut, that is a fault with the operator, not a fault with the machine. I believe idiots should be permitted to amputate body parts as long as they don't expect others to pay for their folly.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Between the table saw, drill press, routers, vacuums and SCMS, I probably did over a hundred on-off switchings, not including my cordless drills. Turning things on and off did not even slow me down. It is such a habit that I do it without thinking. I guess if you have some of the larger equipment like industrial shapers and sanders, it might be more cost-effective to leave things on, especially if you work at it all day. I only do two to three hours of woodwork most days.
I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I do wish you continued good fortune. One of the saddest things is when an older, experienced woodworker has an accident.
You may be mis understanding dgreen , I run a custom production shop as well and we don't just come in in the morning and turn every machine on and leave them run .
Rather , when we start to cut parts on the RAS we leave it on until we are done when possible , it just makes more sense and is less wear and tear on the equipment . My ts stays running the longest when cutting box parts or ripping lumber . We just move the fence .
Same is true for shapers or the edge sander or the dust collector for that matter . Many on offs can cost more than continuos use .
The only thing sadder then an older ww getting injured is a younger one who thought they knew best .
dusty
It makes sense. I guess you have to make some concessions in a production environment.
I just adopted a different attitude when I worked in a maintenance shop in my military past, a long time ago. As a matter of policy, we never left a piece of equipment that was running until it had stopped rotating. There was also the other guy to worry about.
I think it is always more expensive to turn an electric appliance off and on whether it be a light bulb or motor, etc - unless you include the ensuing medical bill.
There is a lot of genius within the technology that allows us to apply such organization to our violence..this spills out into the real world later as gps, microwaves etc...that does not make it right that just means our ideas allowed us to win the world through violent means...
Remember history is written by the winners not the loosers...sad but true.
Hey Lou,
Don't be too hasty in getting rid of that radial arm. I used one of mine as an anchor for my drift boat .
Paul
Chuck the radial saw and get a good sliding compound saw. If limited on space, make the tools mobile so you can roll them out when needed and rolled back for storage when done. Go to the lumber yard and they will have shorts or scraps that they have no use for, these are give- aways they would let you have. Build a frame for the casters and you have a base that will support the heavy tools. Go mobile young man, go mobile!
Hi Lou,
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I use my RAS all the time. Great for dados, gang cutting tenons, sizing rough stock, the list goes on for me. Also there are too many times when I felt safer making a cut with the RAS than the TS.
Took it off the stand, built it into a bench that runs the length of the wall. Underneath there are shelves for cutoffs. Replaced the hip jerker with a handle where the handle pivots so it doen't protrude. By doing this I saved a lot of space from it protruding into the work area.
Just my 2¢.
Oh, and with toungue in cheek, you aren't having a gotta have a new tool craving are you? And, if you're insistant on selling it you might want too redo your add! :-) :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/4/2007 3:27 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, I cant part with the saw. Its a good saw and is like new. I figured it out: the walls in my shop are 12 block, I am going to remove the face of the block to accommodate the back of the saw and part of the dust collection. This will save me 6 inches in depth. If you think about it and ask questions you will always find the answers. I've been in my current shop for 12 years and now that I'm moving into the new shop I want to make sure that I don't make any mistakes on the layout and the tools that will not be making the move.
Ok I'll keep it
Lou
Lou,
Better yet, use both a radial arm and a sliding miter saw. That's what I did for a few years before I finally decided to get rid of the radial arm. I built a bench along one wall, as you propose to do, with two "stations" built into it to accommodate both saws. The long table top was even with the tops of both saws, so I could slide material from one to the other easily; it spanned about 12 feet or so.
It worked pretty well. I'd rough cut on the radial, then do some milling, straightening and flattening on the jointer and planer, and then go back to the sliding miter saw for more precise cutting and joinery. That saved the good blade on the sliding saw, and also some wear and tear on the motor as well.
Zolton
Use a similar approach as you but with different tools. Don't have a SCMS but use the TS and router to sneek up on the final edge.
Fine tune the edge with a shooting board and a plane. Don't know if it's right but it works for me.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/4/2007 10:20 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Lou,
I must admit, RAS saws can be finicky old buggers to a degree. I think it depends on how you perceive their usefulness, and most assuredly your persistence on accurate setup..
In my case mine was the first major tool that I purchased. Being a computer person (Geek to some), at first I was intrigued by its complexity. Had no conception of Fine Woodworking.
I used it to make what I thought was furniture. Never could figure out how to Ripsaw with it, and I thank God that I didn't! I did actually try it once!
After reading several posts in here about Radial Arm Saws and reading about SCMS saws in FWW, I'm not convinced that SCMS saws are any better.
Oh boy I'm sure to hear about that one!
I guess my take on this whole thing is that I have a sentimental value with my old Craftsman 10" RAS that I'm not willing to give up.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Craftsman 10" RAS - Yes, that is a sentimental old thing. Got mine in 1962. How old is yours? It is getting so it makes a lot of noise starting up. Have done quite a bit of ripping with the old thing but mostly for cross cutting. Since I have a table saw, I would never use it for ripping again! Am wondering if I should include it on the auction and get a SCMS.
HI tinkerer2,
I've had mine since '73 and still use it - yes it does have sentimental value. I find that I still use it alot so it justifies the space it takes up. I have made some modifications so it's more compact though. Took it off the legs, made a bench against the wall so it works in tandem with the chopsaw on the same bench.
It was the first stationary tool I owned. Wouldn't you know it, the first need was to rip a board. Couldn't decide which direction I should approach the blade. Yup, it went zinging across the room and hit the concrete wall! Tried it into the blade, the kickback was so violent I never attempted it again!
Lately I've had it set up with a dado blade almost exclusively. I feel more comfortable using it in that config. than the TS as I can better see what I'm doing. It will handle most applications except really long ones, greater than 22".
Rough cut w/chop saw - really wide boards it's the Skil saw, then fine tune on the TS w/crosscut sled.
Just made a shooting board this weekend and will be trying that out tonight. I'm using a well tuned #7 for now, too heavy for me. I'd suspect a #6 would be just right so am looking for one. I'm also going to try a #5 tonight as well.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/9/2007 7:30 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
My RAS was a first stationary tool also. I thought it was a classic. Didn't change for years. Now, I find it is a recall because they cannot fit a safety guard for it. A lot of folks say it is a dangerous tool but the way I use it, one hand is on the handle while the other is holding the wood to the fence. Suppose I could put a clamp on the wood and put my hand in my pocket. Seems as you would have to try to have an accident. When it was new, my brother put the blade in backwards. I looked at it and thought "surely you push the wood against the cutting teeth. Sure! The wood zipped out of there just about about like your episode, I guess. I would never use it for ripping, any more. Maybe, that is where they get it to be dangerous. I would have to agree with that. One thing I did, was to put a return carriage spring on it. Can't imagine why the factory didn't do that. Now it is making a lot of noise at startup. Don't know if it is worth looking into or not. Had thought of building it into a bench with the miter saw. I've had it mounted on the original cabinet. The original castors went squish about the second time I used it. Replaced them with shopping cart castors which have lasted pretty well for forty years. I suppose most any tool that you have loved has a long story!
Lou,
Bless you, and your fine saw will thank you some day.
A RAS can be a persnikerty 'ol fart, not unlike me, but they can serve a purpose.
As mine was my first major tool purchase, there is an attachment to it. I thought I could make it do anything I needed. NOT! Then I learned how to use it.
It's almost like a TS, only upside down, but has an angle capacity as well. Now add the ability to tilt the blade and the possibilities are endless. In my mind there is much condemnation of the RAS as opposed to the exploitation of their usefulness.
Perhaps a candidate for the Most useless tool, I don't think so.
OK, go ahead folks, bash me for that.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/5/2007 8:51 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 4/5/2007 8:58 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hey, Bob
I got a DeWalt 770 in about 1975, and since it was the only saw I had, I used it to rip, crosscut, cut lap joints, tenons, etc. I also had attachments, jointing fence, moulding head, and all the guards. It's versatile, but I spent a lot of time figuring where the blade would be, how to set the guards, anti-kickback pawls, etc. For me, ripping wasn't scary, but setting the blade horizontally to cut tenons and lap joints was a real exercise in taking muster before starting the saw, double checking the digits, and then cutting. Mostly the saw does cross-cutting now.
No flames from this geek.
Bob
To All ,
For those who feel the RAS is dangerous you're right , it can be as any whirling spinning mass of teeth and metal .
BUT ,,,, do any of you remember a saw called a Swing Saw , holy catfish !!! This machine imho was the most wicked ever made . It's like a RAS only instead of sliding out on an arm it pivoted from the top like a pendulum , it wanted to climb right up your body , very scary !!!
Some of the old lumber yards used them for quickly cutting off lengths , some lumber and plywood mills may still use similar saws to trim logs , I saw one that had two chainsaws one on each end with like a five foot bar . It chopped the logs off at like 9' then made veneer core then trimmed them down to size .
dusty
Edited 4/9/2007 2:52 pm ET by oldusty
Wow! You have got to be kidding me!!
View Image Fig 1 - Swing saw
You Got It !
Those make a RAS look like childs play so to speak.
regards dusty
We call them pendulum saws this side of the pond. They used to make them with big blades, too, 24in or bigger wasn't uncommon. Frightening to look at, let alone use. After those a RAS is a real little #### cat.
Scrit
Check this one out! Notice that the motor sits on top of the swing shaft!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/9/2007 3:43 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hi Scrit ,
I've seen a few of the big ones and get queasy just thinking about using one of those . I made like one cut on a pal's and said no thanks .
I am not a scary guy , but I do things that scare some , like using collar knives on the shaper and grinding a few of my own . Using only one cutter with a profile and the other for balance occasionally .My name is dusty and I use a radial arm saw everyday darn near .
For the faint of RAS , we are now introducing a new phobia to be careful of .
Did you ever lose or have Carbide teeth break on the TS blade ? Where did the pieces go ?
dusty
Hey dusty,
The first shop I worked in typically used one blade (shop ground) in their collar knife cutter, with another shape on the opposite side pulled back "for balance". Really "for cheapness". I was in the shop the day one broke off. It flew the length of the shop, some 30', bounced off the cinderblock wall, gouging out a chunk, then imbedded itself in the back of a wardrobe awaiting repair. I was between the wall and the wardrobe. Don't know who was more shaken, me or the fellow standing at the shaper, looking at his unscathed belly, but I know that I always use a matched pair of knives in my collar cutter, and use it as seldom as I can.
Regards,
Ray
Good Morning Ray ,
The knives can break off even when a balanced set is used . A friend had a raised panel knife break off from a matched set .IMO I don't think one knife has any thing to do with them breaking , rather the quality of the cut can be better with 2 or more cutters , and the condition of any cutter is imoportant . In all honesty a one piece 2 or 3 wing carbide cutter can also break , and do .
And you are very correct , time savings to ground only one knife is most likely the reason , imo on smallish details little risk is involved with only one profiled knife and a small bite .
The fact I think all should be concerned of is even Carbide one piece cutters can and do break . The most common risk we all take without thinking much about it has got to be the TS blade with Carbide teeth that absolutely chip and break even partially off .
I ask the question , where do they go ? There is risk involved with any cutting machinery , common sense should be the foremost safety factor .
dusty
<<The fact I think all should be concerned of is even Carbide one piece cutters can and do break>>
It's my understanding that if a carbide cutter is going to break or let go on it's own, the most likely time for this to occur is at start up. A long-time pro advised me to hold a piece of scrap in front of the cutter on startup as a precaution, which I have done on shapers/router tables since he gave me the tip. I don't do it on the table saw, but that may not be a bad idea. It's just a matter of getting in the habit. I have discovered carbide saw teeth missing on two occasions and wondered where they went. My undertaker will probably find them one day.
Mike ,
I have this like 6X8" Oak about 30" or so long and lay that up on the table when I first time start a collar knife setup. If it's going to throw one , they say start up is a likely time , As for breaking a Carbide cutter imo it's more likely to fracture or chip or break while under a load and cutting a nail or ?
ps : be careful at the airport metal detector , carbide registers as a unknown compound ,they have a room for cabinetmakers , you don't want to go there , no power tools !
dusty
Ray, I'm quite sure somebody like you would never have a cutter come out of a slotted collar since you would be sure to have a weight matched pair, well set into the grooves, threads cleaned plus a little oil when tightening.
The other worry about them breaking- it can't happen if one uses laminated cutter steel specially made for shaper knives: a gentleman in a factory in darkest Africa somehow allowed a wrench to hit the knives- the set up looked like an aircraft propellor that has bitten the tarmac, but nothing broke off. We kept the slotted collar assembly but not the gentleman.Philip Marcou
Edited 4/11/2007 3:30 am by philip
philip,
I use adrenaline, instead of oil, on the threads. The instructions I was given on assembling the slotted cutters: "Tighten that big nut up tight as you can. Then give it another 1/4 turn." Seems like the best policy to me. The sound that bad boy makes as it winds up gives me the willies, for sure.
Ray
Ah yes well you can also stand /operate the machine in such a way that that your head is just below table level.
The table saw however only requires that by standing to one side one will never have to salute it (oriental style salute).Philip Marcou
"Tighten that big nut up tight as you can. Then give it another 1/4 turn."
That used to be the policy in shops here, too, in the days of slotted collars and square blocks (both now banned in Europe - too many accidents). I've been there when an overstressed nut sheared off a square cutter block and one of the six cutters was launched. It ricocheted off the shaper table and went about 25 feet before embedding itselfd in a 150 year old pitch pine beam (with the consistency of iron). From the limited amount of prong sticking out of the back it went in a good 3-1/2 or so inches..... Long live modern tooling and guarding, I say. If nothing else it cuts down onthe laundry bills.
Scrit
Hi Scrit,More fuel to the fire, and the reason why I have my head out of sight of the spindle moulder head when I start one up.http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16605&highlight=cmt+cutter+spindle+moulderThe 'safety' cutterhead is pictured here
http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=141316&postcount=10I must admit, I use an alloy cutter head block and am nervous when I see this as it's the same manufacturer.Cheers,eddie
Edited 4/12/2007 11:49 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Hi Eddie
That certainly made me stop and think. All barring one of my heads is steel - the alloy one is an Oppold vari-angle chamfer block which uses TC-RT cutters and the cut-outs for the cutters and wedges are tiny in comparison to the huge "gouge" out of the CMT head. It also has a lot more metal in it than the CMT block shown. I wonder is that has anything to do with it? Certainly CMT blocks are really cheap in comparison to my tooling of choice, Whitehill, so they have to be saving money somewhere - possibly by cutting corners on their alloy quality. After seeing those photos I did talk to my supplier who told me that Whitehill had only ever had two alloy blocks fail in about 9 or 10 years; one was down to abuse whilst the other was down to being run way too fast
Scrit
Lou,
I am dead now, but I wanted to answer your question, so I am "channeling" myself through 9619 (Mel). So please realize that this is not Mel talking, but me, from the grave.
I believe that everyone should own a radial arm saw. It was the reason that I first developed my theory of evolution.
Sincerely,
Charles Darwin
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, uh I mean Charles?,
Oh my, another somestimers attack! Lou is keeping his RAS as a gesture to us senior citizens. :-) :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Channeling Charles was just my way of saying "Be Careful when you use those things. I live near Washington DC, and I believe that National Airport is one of the safest airports because it is one of the most dangerous. Pilots have to fly along the river and then make a turn just to keep the noise down. That surely doesn't make things safer. But the fact that the pilots have to pay such close attention, makes National safe, despite the design problem.RASs can be like that. If you are going to use them, do like the pilots flying into or out of National, and pay extra attention! Remember what they say in the NRA.
Guns don't kill. People kill.
Same can be said for woodworking tools.Live long and prosper!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I used to have a buddy who was a WWII artillery veteran. One day we were talking about the dangers of woodworking, and he tells me of a conversation he had with someone about his wartime occupation. "Weren't you scared of handling all those canisters of powder, and high explosive shells?" he was asked. "Heck no," he replied. " That stuff is perfectly safe...unless you forget how dangerous it is!"
Same can be said of radial saws, shapers, and yes guns. Perfectly safe. Til you allow yourself to get careless, or distracted.
Ray
Hey Lou,
Looks like you got lots of replys. Here's another:
I was is your position last year. I had just completed two kitchens on my Sears RAS, and had another one on the todo list. I ended up getting a unisaw on sale and have since done two kitchens. I can tell you that the TS is much faster (just being able to set your fence with one hand and no measuring is a bonus). Also, I have a workbence to the left of the saw and use it to crosscut sheets into manageable chunks. Of the +-30 sheets I think I only had to pull out the skill saw and straight edge on two of them. Also, my wife didn't have to help lift a single one of them - and now I have no use for my 1/2 dozen roller stands :). Another benefit is being able to fine tune your blade height to prevent chipping on top and bottom.
I purchased a 12" CMS to allow me to chunk up rough lumber and mouldings, etc. Now I see little use for the RAS, other than the obvious crosscut dato's. Everything wider than my CMS's 8" max width can ride against my TS's rip fence. Also I love the twin lasers on my CMS, especially with eyeballing rough lumber.
Cheers, Nathan
Oddly enough I have a slider and a CMSin the shop, yet I still have a use for the RAS. It can repeat crosscut faster than the slider, it does housings (dados) which the other pair can't do and it has a greater crosscut capacity than the SCMS. For roughing sawn timber to length before ripping and surfacing it is also pretty good - at least it doesn't bog down the way the CMS does. I suppose it all depends on the volume and type of business you are doing
Scrit
Lou: I recently replaced my 30 year old Craftsman RAS with a Makita 10" SCMS and NO REGRETS ! I learned to cut wood on my fathers RAS 40 years ago and thought that to be the nuts. I agree w/ Zoltan's response to you. The constant, repetitive cuts on my Makita sold me. I realized I needed the change when the RAS became a storage table, and not a useful tool. As for freeing up space, I didn't gain anything measurable.
Chipsndust.
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