Replies

1. 
   buildit4you | Jan 03, 2004 01:26am | #1

   Alan,

   I always double coat both pieces. (I normally use particle board or plywood as a substrate) I would think the MDF might require three coats as the material is really absorbent. I have been using laminates for about thirty years in many applications.  If you have any questions drop me an e-mail. ([email protected])

   see ya!

   Phil Powell

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Jan 03, 2004 02:35am | #2

   Start off coating the MDF, then coat the formica and then go back and put another coat on the MDF.  Just be sure the first coating on the MDF has lost it's sheen.

   You can double coat the formica but it should not be necessary if you put on an adequate thickness the first time.

3. 
   Tao | Jan 03, 2004 02:57am | #3

   If you want it quick, easy, and permanent, don't mess with rolling or brushing it.  Get some 3M High Strength 90 spray adhesive, double-coat both surfaces (about 80% coverage each coat.  Wait about 2 minutes, stick the laminate on, roll it HARD, trim it, bevel it, and forget it.  One caution: open time is only 10 minutes, so have evrything ready to go.

   Wilsonart and Formica also make an aerosol contact cement; they are good too.  Most commercial shops switched over to aerosol adhesives 10 to 15 years ago.  I had a laminate department that was using old style spray adhesive to put laminates on restaurant booths. It had about a half hour waiting time between spray and stick.  When we switched to aerosol, output about doubled, and I think quality improved.

   Rolling or brushing contact cement is a nightmare.  I used it years ago on some onsite commercial work, and it really sucks.

   Michael R

4. 
   Drose | Jan 03, 2004 03:56am | #4

   Ive done a couple small surface laminate projects.  A roller or even a brush will coat just fine for contact cement if you dont mind spending the time.  Depending on your weather conditions, the contact cement can take an hour or more to dry enough to bond your laminate and mdf.  Close your windows on a windy day.  It sucks to scrap a 3 by 6 piece of laminate because of wind blown dust

5. 
   migraine | Jan 03, 2004 03:57am | #5

   I am for the vacuum pressing method if you have the equiptment and you tops are not that large, or you will joining multiple tops.

   I still use contact adhesive at times, but vacuum pressing with titebond2 or another PVA adhesive is my personal preference.  With a press, you don't have to worry about sufficient roller pressure, glue"buggers", etc. 

   I also would recommend Industrial Particle Board(not underlayment particle board) instead of MDF.

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jan 03, 2004 06:49am | #6

   Thanks everyone.  As I recall, it has been about 27 years since I put a piece of laminate on anything.  Made several large dining tables.  Woodwiz, thanks for the info on the spray.  Tomorrow morning I think I'll go look for some.

   If I don't find any, I'll use the contact cement and keep in mind everyone's advice -- put on the mdf, then the laminate, the recoat the mdf when it is ready.

   Thanks again.  I will check this again in the morning for any more info before I head to find some spray.

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   DennisS | Jan 03, 2004 06:56am | #7

   Alan

   If you don't already have one, pick up a respirator along with the spray stuff. Unless you're working outside in a nice breeze and standing up wind! (grin)

   I agree with the two-coat on the wood and one coat on the laminate with ordinary contact cement. I used (once) some waterborne contact cement (from DAP I think) and it worked quite well in spite of my aprehensions. I used it due to the restrictions on ventilation where I was working on that particular job. I'm not a laminate installer by trade nor do I consider myself an expert on the subject, but ... I've done a little and can assure you that ordinary contact adhesive will be fine for your little project. Brush or roller, goobers don't seem to be much of an issue if you level it out pretty well.

   ...........

   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

   Dennis

2. 
   Tao | Jan 03, 2004 08:25pm | #9

   >>If I don't find any, I'll use the contact cement and keep in mind everyone's advice -- put on the mdf, then the laminate, the recoat the mdf when it is ready.

   I should have mentioned that you can get the 3M in the big box stores; that's why I recommended it.   It will be in the adhesives section.  Costs around $10 for a 16 oz. can, but worth it.

   Actually, anyone who sells laminate ought to carry aerosol contact cement. 

   As for the brush or roll on contact cement: yes, it will work - sort of.  It's kind of like a 76 chevy with bald tires and no shocks vs a new Lexus.  You don't know what you're missing until you try it.

   Michael R

6. 
   RANGERP75R | Jan 03, 2004 07:48am | #8

   Alan

      I did about 700 sq. ft. last Jan. with laminate and MDF. The contact cement works fine. I do rough out the MDF with 80 grit sand-paper. Follow directions on the can and press it down with a J-roller. I prefer to work in temperatures above 65 degrees and plenty of ventilation.

   sarge..jt

   Proud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

7. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 04, 2004 03:12am | #10

   Alan,

   Michael's point is valid.  Most commercial work uses spray contact - it's red or green coloured so that you can easily see where you've been.  Using a roller is also common for smaller shops.

   A few points on gluing laminate in no particular order, just as I think of them

   (1) surface dead flat - any imperfection will telegraph through the laminate (WilsonArt, etc)

   (2) Rough the surface of the MDF with 120# or 80# paper (hand), then go over the surface with 240# to knock off the high spots only - get all dust off the surface.  As the rear side of the laminate is already rough, no need to do this to the laminate

   (3) Apply one coat of contact.  First to the laminate, then to the MDF.  It takes the contact longer to dry on the laminate than the MDF, so by the time you're finished the coating, they should both dry at the same time.

   (4) You don't want the glue too thick, so only apply one coat, sufficient to cover the surface and not leave glue blobs.  To achieve this, use a glue spreader or, at a pinch, a piece of timber (important:  nothing that will spill sawdust or spinters into the glue)

   (5) Drying time here is approx 20".  The glue is dry when it loses it's tack.

   (6) Cut the laminate with a 25mm overhang to allow for misalignment during glueup.  This is done obviously right at the start.

   (7) Use dowels laid across the surface of the MDF at approx 8-12" spacing to separate the laminate from the MDF while you are arranging the laminate in position onto the MDF.  Do not use something ripped from the saw as it may leave a splinter/arris or sawdust embedded in the glue.

   (8) When you're happy with alignment, remove the middle dowel, press down lightly to activate the glue and then proceed down one half of the job, removing dowels one at a time, flattenning the laminate onto the job with the side of your hand, by pressing down in the middle (glued section) and then pushing towards the unglued section.  Aim here is to avoid creating bubbles or creases in the laminate.

   (9) Continue this until you have half the table done then repeat the other half.

   (10) apply firm pressure to the surface to completely activate the glue/bond.  It's unlikely that you have a nip roller/mangle, so another alternative is to just use a scrap block of wood approx 4" x 4" and your hammer.  Go over the entire top and firmly tap through the block onto the surface, pressing the laminate down in approx 1 1/2" square bits at a time

   I don't think that I've forgotten anything - if any questions, feel free to post - there's a few of us on this board that have done our fair share of laminating.

   eddie

   
   

   ---

   Edited 1/3/2004 7:14:18 PM ET by eddie (aust)

1. 
   Tao | Jan 04, 2004 04:00am | #11

   Eddie- I agree with most of what you wrote, but here are a couple of additions / updates:

   Most commercial shops in the US got away from the old slow drying spray contact cement years ago, and went to the fast drying aerosols.  Spray and stick in about two minutes instead of thirty.  Much faster and easier.  Never in thirty years have I seen a commercial shop using roll or brush on cement.  As I said above, my only appearance with that stuff was really bad -- uneven glue spread, uneven surface, poor quality job.

   I've done a lot of laminates, too, but never bothered to rough up the substrate, nor have I seen any manufacturers recommend it.  I don't think the additional dust and hairs raised on the surface would create a better bond.  Never had any delamination problems, either, except on some curved edges where I didn't have the guys pre-form the laminate to fit some sharp curves.

   3M recommends double coating with their HS 90 if you want a particularly tenacious bond.  80% coverage per coat is sort of standard -- no puddles or blobs.  Normally, this is not required, and one coat suffices.  As you point out, putting on too much cement is as bad as too little.

   Most contact cements require over 30 PSI to bond properly, and a J-roller with lots of weight behind it does OK.  They are easily available in the big box stores & not expensive.  Lacking a J-roller, I have found that wrapping a rag over the end of a piece of 1x4 scrap to prevent scratching and using the arris (edge) of the end to apply pressure works better than the hammer and block.  I've seen a number of glues that specifically recommend against the hammer technique although I learned it, too, early on.

   The part about using dowels for alignment and separation is very good.  Pretty much standard in all the shops I've been in.  Dowels don't stick like square strips do.

   There are lots of ways to do things.  This is just the sum of what I have picked up over the years.  Sometimes the little things make a difference.

   Michael R.

1. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 04, 2004 04:36am | #12

   Thanks Michael,

   The tip on the 1 x 4 was good  - I don't have a press so I'll give it a go next time.

   Our occasional laminate shops still use rollers, all semi-regular shops use spray contact.

   Roughing up surface was my training - still do it out of habit.  I hear what you're saying but. 

   Cheers,

   eddie

   edit:  I'm teaching now and cabinetry jobs are about 6 per year.  I'll keep an eye out for spray contact - would make my life alot easier next time.

   Edited 1/3/2004 8:49:34 PM ET by eddie (aust)

2. 
   alanplanesaw | Jan 04, 2004 04:59am | #13

   Michael (woodwiz) and Eddie,

   Thanks for your experience and wisdom.  Michael, I found the 3M spray at HD.  $12.  I went ahead and used Wilsonart 600 contact cement, since I am familiar with that process.  Used dowels, pulled out the middle one and started with a J-roller.  Moved left, then right.  It went down fine. 

   The router table top is 24 x 30 MDF, inch & a quarter thick (3/4 plus 1/2),  then edged with inch & a quarter by one inch cherry (I happen to have a bit of cherry).  The laminate is strictly on the top.  I mitred the corners of the cherry, then used biscuits to hold it to the  table top. 

   Then I put the laminate on.  Went around it with the router and a straight bit (with bearing).  Then I went back around it with a 1/4" round over bit.

   I have now cut out the hole for the router plate to sit in.  Tomorrow I'll dado a 1" groove for a track for the mitre to slide in.  The cabinet and drawers are built.  Just been a long time since I have put on laminate that I thought I would ask for advice.

   It is now on and looks great.  Plus, I got a lot of good advice and updates.

   Thanks,

   Alan - planesaw

3. 
   RANGERP75R | Jan 04, 2004 05:59am | #14

   Woodwiz

      As eddie, I was not aware of the use of spray also. As eddie, I always rough the substrate. I use a roller on larger applications and a cheap china brush on small ones as a router table top. One coat of contact cement and wait till it glazes and is tacky. Use the strips as eddie mentioned.

      This is just the way it went down years ago and I don't hang out at cabinet shops often. Was not aware of some of the new techniques. Will check them out as I seem to be behind the times.

      As eddie, I will probably still continue to rough out. I do it to primer with 440 wet before I paint a car too. Never had problems with laminate release or car paint adhering. Could be it is not necessary, but some habits are hard to break.

   Thanks for the update tips on laminating...

   sarge..jtProud member of the :  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

1. 
   mitch | Jan 04, 2004 11:02pm | #15

   "The laminate is strictly on the top. "

   this is a MAJOR mistake.  do both sides so both gain or lose moisture equally (ideally, virtually none of either) and the top stays flat.  without both sides laminated i will guarantee it will not stay as flat as you need it to, for as long as you'll want it to.  do the edges while you're at it for the same reason.

   m

1. 
   alanplanesaw | Jan 05, 2004 05:00am | #16

   Good thought.  The edges are trimmed with one inch cherry lumber.

   Instead of putting laminate on the underside, can I just seal it with something?  Any recommendation?

   Thanks,

   Alan - planesaw

2. 
   Robbie | Jan 05, 2004 05:12am | #17

   Alan:  I was faced with the same situation as you... needing the underside of a table saw extension sealed.  I really thought that laminating might be a waste of effort and material.  Thought back to my boat building days and decided to slap on a heavy coat of West Systems epoxy on the underside. 

   Hopefully this will do the trick.  I cannot imagine why it will not.

   Robbie.

3. 
   mitch | Jan 05, 2004 03:26pm | #18

   give it a shot- however, the thinking behind laminating both sides (like always veneering both sides) is to equalize moisture transfer by having identical surface treatments.  one may assume that laminate is absolutely waterproof (but it's not 100.000%) so balancing it out with something that is also perfectly waterproof, at least in theory, should do the trick.  but like i said, how do you know they're even?

   m

4. 
   Tao | Jan 05, 2004 06:32pm | #19

   Mitch

   >>do both sides so both gain or lose moisture equally (ideally, virtually none of either) and the top stays flat.  without both sides laminated i will guarantee it will not stay as flat as you need it to, for as long as you'll want it to.  do the edges while you're at it for the same reason.

   That principal applies to veneers, but not so much to laminates on MDF, especially on pieces 2 feet square or less that are supported by a frame.  MDF moves much less than any naturall wood, and is an ideal substrate for laminates.  Also, contact cement tends to creep a bit with expansion and contraction.

   Standard practice in industry is to laminate one side only on countertops and such.  Large panels, or free standing tops like restaurant tables, get a backer veneer that is much less expensive than face veneer, but does the job of balancing the panel.  Any edge treatment works fine- laminate or wood edge banding, t-molding, etc.

   Alan, You might want to use an ogee bit instead of a roundover.  You're going to have a fragile edge exposed on the laminate that will want to chip easily.  Or you can wait till it chips and then change the edge.  An ogee profile gives you a much thicker laminate edge.

   Eddie, Sarge, et. al.,

   Happy to be of service.  The aerosol cement is kind of expensive, but if you value your time at all, it is worth it.  I recommended 3M because it is most easily available, but similar products are available from laminate suppliers in larger quantities, with commensurate economies of scale.

   Michael R

5. 
   mitch | Jan 05, 2004 07:08pm | #20

   i figured since he's talking about a router table top, for the minimal extra trouble and expense he ought to do both sides just to be sure.  you're right- most applications would not warrant this step.

   m

6. 
   alanplanesaw | Jan 06, 2004 12:29am | #21

   Mitch / Woodwiz,

   You guys about have me convinced to laminate the underneath side.  Maybe that is where I'll try the 3m spray you recommended.  That way if I screw it up, I can fix it and not worry about how it looks.

   Alan - planesaw

7. 
   wdrudman | Jan 06, 2004 01:16am | #22

   My only comment is this:  I am doing my own kitchen remodel from the drywall out.  This includes four countertop areas (two < 5 sq ft, two > 10 sq ft).  I used the WilsonArt aerosal can on the sink base countertop -- 24" x 51".  Somehow, I managed to use up the entire can on the one countertop -- which I am sure was too much.  I'm using the pint and roller approach on the others.

   My point is that if you don't already know what you are doing, the aerosol spray can winds up being rather expensive.

   Note to manufacturer's:  put expected/recommended coverages on your products!  This will help us learn to use the product correctly.

8. 
   Tao | Jan 06, 2004 05:23am | #23

   >>My point is that if you don't already know what you are doing, the aerosol spray can winds up being rather expensive.

   True enough, but what's your time worth?  Is it worth an extra seven or eight dollars to save a couple of hours and get better quality?  That's entirely up to you.  Typical coverage for a can of 3M #90 is 100 square feet per can, more or less.  At $12 a can, that's about 12 cents per square foot. One can should have been enough for your project.  I think I said earlier that 80% coverage was about right, and that if you got little puddles you were putting on too much. 

   If the laminate were already cut about 1" oversize, I could usually edgeband, lay up, trim and file those four  countertops in between one and two hours.  With brush-on cement it would take at least twice as long and wouldn't be near as flat.

   I charge $60 per hour and up for my time, so anything that saves me a few minutes has value; same in production shops. $1 a minute is break even for me, anything better is gravy.  $10 to save $120 is worth it to me.  I hope I never see a can of brush-on cement ever again, but that's just me.  Along with a few thousand production shops.  (And yes, there are always exceptions.)

   I'm not trying to tell you what you should do, just explaining the options.

   Michael R.