I’m considering a stationary wide belt or roller type sanding machine such as a Performax (roller style) or Grizzly/Sunhill belt sander to thickness and surface resawn veneers that are too thin to run through a planer, or to true up the face of segmented rings for segmeted turnings. I might use it for an occasional frame and panel door where the panel is highly figured and would tear out in a planer. This is for home shop use, not industrial. These machines are a bit pricey and I’m interested to know what other applications people find for them. What is the quality of surface produced? What are the pros and cons of the various models? Thanks a lot.
Jay
Replies
Jay,
Open ended models such as Performax and Ryobi have accuracy problems.
Belt type models run much cooler than drum models, which tend to get quite hot.
Some of the new drum models now have double drums, allowing the use of two grits on a single pass. (Woodworker's Supply has what's supposed to be a dandy for $1200.)
Drum sanders are expensive.
Wide belt sanders are very expensive.
Jeff
Jeff,
Would that 1200 be for the woodtek?
Don
I thought the open ended variety sounded like an advantage in that you could get double the width, if you reverse the piece, eg for a large door. The Highland Hardware catalogue claims the Performax sands to a flatness within 0.010 inch. How do you know the open ended ones have accuracy problems?
Only know about the accuracy problems from what I've read. Seems that to compensate for that open end, the machine frame would have to be quite heavy (like a band saw), something not employed on the small units. Perhaps they'll be accurate to 1/100" when they're new, but how are they after sanding several thousand feet?
Jeff
Be patient and look around. I got my 16-32 Performax at a local pawn show for around $500, with an assortment of paper included. And the local ReTool store has one for the same price. If buying used, be sure to check it out before buying so you don't get some junk. And remember to not expect these machines to remove wood like a planer. It is not a planer; more of a finishing machine.
FineWoodworking On... book series had an article on building your own drum sander but it was an older book, probably out of print. But the local used book stores and web searches may turn one up.
Good luck.
I have an older (1987) Kuster brand 36" drum sander, and used it as an abrasive planer for years, being afraid I couldn't set the knives properly on a planer. Now, it gets little use, but I do use it for the things you mentioned. Especially on figured woods and resawn veneers. The WoodTek looks great, and is priced fairly, but haven't seen or used it. I have the 6x89 edge sander, and lightweight 20" planer by WookTek and they are very good tools, esp. for the money.
I am fascinated by folks who buy thickness sanders. I have always lived near millwork shops which have wide sanders and work for very little $. Last week I had them do extensive sanding on 5 curly maple glue-ups which were very rough...cost $7. At that rate, I can not see devoting shop space or $ to a thickness sander. What am I missing?
That's great if you happen to live next door to someone who has one and is willing to let you use it at your convenience. Most of us are not that lucky.
Jay
Most areas have a millwork shop that will rent time quite reasonably. Have you checked around your area. The other advantage is that these are usually 48" machines which gives you huge flexibility.
Performax is suppose to have a 12/23 open ended sander coming out for under $500. I'm thinking that is quite enough for what I want. In fact, I probably prefer a nice 13" lunch box style sander similar to the 12"-13" planers. With the closed end style of the small planers (I use a Delta 12.5" planer) it should be very rigid and not go out of alignment. I'm not thinking of sanding panels or using it to remove glue, but I would like to use it to smooth resawn boards, resawn strips intended for lamination and for surfacing figured woods. I'm not a production shop so I can probably handle hand sanding my panels, but I do like figured wood which my planer doesn't seem to care for quite as much. A width of about 13" would handle the vast majority of the stock I get.
-Craig
I have the old Kuster with an unstoppable 5 hp. Baldor on it; i've ground a lot of laminated wood to sawdust with it. A 50 grit belt on it can take quite a lot of material off at a whack. It does a fine job of leveling laminated and figured wood to about 120 grit without gouging the soft and leaving the harder woods proud. After 120 grit, i switch to other machines. I've had the drum balanced and installed in the pillow blocks with a dial indicatior, but in use it still leaves marks on the wood similar to planer marks i.e. ridges across the surface that i have to sand out with a belt sander. Changing belts is a huge nuisance; it works OK for my production work, but it would be maddening if i did one piece at a time.
A while back, i went in search of wide-belt sander info with thoughts of replacing it. There are wide belt sanders that have a drum at the bottom, others that have a couple drums with a lowerable platen so you can get a truly smooth surface free of the ridges. There are various types of roller and belt-driven feeds, pneumatic v. electric-eye tracking of the belt, manual and electric table elevators, etc...all of which translates into different price points. Of course, width is another variable that can drive the price to the moon.
The 15" Grizzly was mentioned as a good machine. You can call Grizzly and they'll give refs to whom you can talk personally (that is, they used to...anybody know if they still do?) I got sidetracked before i checked out their platen set-up, whether they have one--i saw a mention of it on the web, but no corroboration at the Grizzly site and i didn't email them to find out for sure--and if so, whether it can be raised/lowered. (Raised position is for removing more stock; lowered is for final passes.)
Most of the Performax owners i know have not been that pleased with their machines. Ed Williams has (had?) one--you might contact him for the details--he posts in Breaktime mostly as GACC, Great American Cabinet Company. My impression is thta the learning curve is long, loong, loooong to get to a workable machine. I also see them for sale all the time--not a good sign.
The Grizzly for $2700. is WAY out of my budget, especially for home use. But I appreciate the insight on the Performax. Thanks.
Jay
I have the same Kuster, I think (36" or so), and changing paper is truly a PITA. As a result, I don't use it very often. Mostly for flattening figured woods, esp. resawn veneers. I was thinking of trying the blue Zirconia Alumna (sp?) from Woodworkers Supply. Have you tried this? On my edge sander, this belt seems to last just about forever.
I've used the blue belts on my belt sander--worked great--but not for the drum. I don't even want to think whata full roll of that would cost!
I use my Kuster a lot, but only for production runs where i run it for at least a couple hours at a time. Do you have the Kuster with the tensioner on the drum or the real antique like mine where it's all tape and wedges?
These aren't cheap, but considering the legth of time in effective use, my non-scientific impression is that they end up being cheaper, at least on the edge sander. I think WS would sell less than a full 150' roll, but haven't inquired.
Sometimes I just wrap the first 12-15" of the drum, if that is all of the width I need to sand. I don't commonly do production runs of anything. Several hours of operation of this tool would produce a lot of dust, and while I do use a DC, because of the design (and probably my DC) there is much that is missed (mist?).
If I try it, I'll post and let you know the results.
Sometimes I just wrap the first 12-15" of the drum, if that is all of the width I need to sand
I may do a run where i have a few dozen each of crib boards about 5" wide and susans at 12-16" wide, so i don't change belts. The side where i start wrapping wears more bec i use one board to push the other and the drum area i actually use is small for those narrow items. So, the next time i install, i reverse the belt. I cuts better even in the previously used areas when reversed.
Great idea; thanks.
Splintie is correct that some of the performax users are not happy, but there are many that are. I know of some cabinet shops that use them for running short panels through them with no complaints. Myself, for running long, heavy boards their stand system is not practical. They need to come out with a heavy base that is low to the ground before the machines become practical for anything large. I am now looking at General International's dual drum sander for exactly this reason.
Don
Don I have a 37" dual drum Performax and I am very happy with it. Your right about the light weight though. The General version is over double the weight. I've overcome the weight of the Performax with a out feed stand. I've feed 2" thick 24" wide and 10 feet long countertops made of Eastern Maple with no problems. Keep in mind though the weight will keep the machine on the floor but it the rollers that keep the material on the table and the weight of the machine won't really help in this regard. I have a smaller shop where space is a concern and with the wheels mounted on the sander I can move it around a little to feed long stock though it. I don't think I would want to wheel around a thousand pound sander. I left a post on the other thickness sander thread about a fellow woodworker who purchased the General International sander and was less than pleased.
Jay,
Did you check the post in the classified section? Someone has a 1 year old Performax for sale.
Jeff
Whoa! As in most threads, there's some misinformation here, quite likely due to a lack of information about the application being considered and the way the question was asked. But ...
I have the open-ended 16-32 Performax and am satisfied with its performance for what I do with it. (First and formost, I am talking about the stationary machine -- not the radial arm saw model which, as a guess, would have setup problems.) The machine's accuracy is a function of setup. I can get it dead-on inboard-to-outboard and infeed-to-outfeed using their built-in adjustment provisions, but it does take patience and some trial and error. (Like other machines, getting to know the machine makes it more intuitive, but it isn't hard to do.)
There are some variations which are related to the pressure on the drive belt and the irregularities and compressibility of the wrap-around abrassive belts, but these are minor for most large applications (like thicknessing where a few thousandths side to side doesn't matter) and there are workarounds. It's also possible to introduce variations if you run it too fast or try to take off too much at a time.
In the real world, the Performax can't be used as a substitute for a thickness planer because it's impractical to stand there while each pass only takes off a few thousandths of an inch, even with 36 grit abrasive which also leaves deep grooves in the surface. (For thicknessing, I use my 15-inch planer to take the work down to within a 32nd or so of final size, then use the Performax with 80 grit to get rid of the planer marks.)
Also, for applications like furniture or jewelry boxes where surfaces are critical, give up any notion that you'll be able to do final sanding with a Performax or equivalent machine. Even the finest grits (like 120 or greater) will still leave surface marks to be scraped or ROS sanded. For doors or trim carpentry, or, maybe, oil finishes, it may be OK. It's a judgement call.
I recently made a bunch of bookmarks out of scrap cocobolo reducing resawn strips from about an eighth of an inch to about 40 thousandths, something like the veneer you're talking about. It took a long time to work through the various grits, and I still had to use a ROS to get the final surface I wanted, but the thickness dimensions held well and my planer could never have worked this thin.
This is one kind of thicknessing that the Performax is good for, and the machine does a good job of making surfaces parallel. I have also used it to make thick veneer (like resawn bookmatched pieces) and been generally satisfied with the dimensional tolerances.
On bigger pieces, I do use the Performax as a final step in ensuring four-square dimensioning usually following rough planing or jointing. It's good for that, especially at the start of a job where you want a large number of boards dimensioned the same and with a reasonably good surface. I've used mine successfully on maple and cherry with wild grain and I've also used it (like Splintie does) to surface glued-up laminations.
If you get one of these or similar machines, you'll need to plan on getting a good dust control system because they make a prodigious amount of fine sawdust and the dust will build up on the work, burn and generally screw up the workpiece and the machine. The proof comes when you forget to turn on the dust control! I also use one of those rubber sticks fairly often on the finer grits to keep from having to change abrasive often. As others have noted above, changing abrasives is a bit tricky, but I've learned to do it without the little tool they supply and it goes fairly fast -- maybe 3 or 4 minutes with pre-cut strips from Klingspor or Performax. (If you don't get the strip well wrapped and tensioned, this can be a source of inaccuracy.)
I have no experience with the larger or closed-end machines, but I would guess they are a step above in side-to-side accuracy as well as capacity. Some of them may even dither the abrasive for a better finish. But the Performax is a good machine and they've sold thousands for smaller shops with improvements along the way. I would suggest you get the heavy, lockable wheels for it, too; I would find its footprint too large for the available real estate in my shop if I couldn't easily move it around.
Bottom line? Don't count on a really fine surface out of a linear-type sanding machine and don't buy one for heavy dimensioning. They do have a place in your machine room, but -- like other woodworking machines -- they are pretty much single purpose and won't completely eliminate hand work.
Jim
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