Replies

1. 
   dherzig | Jul 21, 2007 02:29am | #1

   The plough plane you want is made by EC Emmerich. I have one exactly as you describe.

2. 
   chuckh | Jul 21, 2007 07:36am | #2

   Matthew,

   Here is a good intro to hollows & rounds

   http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2173

    

    

3. 
   mwenz | Jul 21, 2007 12:07pm | #3

   Hollows and Rounds by the same makers are fairly matched in their graduated sizing. There are differences both in American vs. English regions, but also by different makers somewhat.

   Larry Williams (of Clark and Williams) mentioned they are working on a DVD for making moldings--it'll pretty much be a first of its kind. I am waiting (although not too patiently!) fr its completion. It'll be a great asset I think.

   Ok. First molding planes. I think unless you are fairly adventurous, skip the hollow and round pairs. When you do get them, as far as furniture is concerned, a numbered set from 2 to 10, all the same maker, will suffice. In all likelihood, what you'll end up getting is what is called a half-set. This will be a set of planes numbered from 2-18 ( or 1-17). Skewed one work better in many circumstance, but they come up for purchase less often.

   My recommendation is to start with beading planes. Simple decorative planes. There are basically two kinds, side beads and center beads. Side beads are for the beading detail on the edge of boards. Center bead planes are used on the face of a board. The center bead planes are used with a guide board (a batten) in order to keep it on track. Side bead planes are not used with a batten.

   I recommend these because I think they are the simplest to learn to use. If you end up using and liking them, molding planes are a whole slope to slide down.

   Dadoes, Get decent dado planes. Plows can be used but basically suck at making dadoes. They have depth stops (most do anyway) and a second blade in front of the main cutter with spurs on either side to sever the fibers. The blade itself is skewed, making cross grain cutting smoother and efficient.

   For grooving, a plow works exceedingly well. Grooving with the grain, not much is to be gained by a skew blade nor nickers or a spur cutter. There are many types, including wood ones. I have, well, many of the things. From the tiny Record 043 to a wood one. If you go looking for a vintage wooden one, find one with the full set of 8 blades. Matching separate blades to a particular plow often doesn't work.

   Plow planes all have a fence and depth stops. The tiny 043 is great for small work, the others I have get used once the groove gets larger/deeper or more difficult woods are encountered. Some, like my Record 050 also have bead cutters. While these work, wood ones work better.

   I could go on--but it's been a long day. If you would like pictures of these types of planes, let me know and I'll snap a picture or two.

   Take care, Mike

1. 
   VTAndy_ | Jul 21, 2007 02:44pm | #4

   Mike,
   I'd be interested to know what to look for, and what to avoid, in buying dado planes on eBay etc.
   Thanks,
   Andy

1. 
   mwenz | Jul 21, 2007 03:28pm | #6

   Good morning, Andy (geez, I need to get to bed yet...)General
   I look for no cracks (a bruised end is ok to me as long as it isn't excessive), an iron which is at or above the wedge,all original (replacement wedges are ok to me if I am buying from a reputable dealer, else I'll pass), no missing boxing (not all planes have boxing), "clean" profile--no missing wood at the mouth, deformed mouth, smooth/brunished looking profile--and something which isn't always obvious...a profile I think I can really use. For furniture, that means the smaller profiles by and large.Dado planes
   Again, depth stop (I prefer the thumbscrew type but there are wedge types which work fine), spur cutter and main blade present, no chips in the lower "tongue" which is the width of the dado.Plows
   All the irons, depth stop, fence and arms, present. Moving fillisters
   Depth stop, nicker, proper large screws with which the fence is adjusted, preferably one which has a boxed leading corner (mine doesn't).There's more I suspect--but I've been up all night working...I'll check back on the thread later...Mike

1. 
   VTAndy_ | Jul 22, 2007 04:50am | #9

   Hi Mike,
   Thanks -- I'm going to be on the hunt for a 3/4" dado so the advice will come in handy!
   -Andy

4. 
   AdamCherubini | Jul 21, 2007 03:10pm | #5

   Hi Matthew

   Hollows and rounds are useful, but not as useful as a proper molding plane with a fence and a stop. A round plane might look like it makes a cove, but a real cove plane has a fence and a stop that make it easier to use (additionally the shape is different).

   So my advice is the opposite of what you are thinking; start with the astragal, beads, ovolos, quirked ogees, and the like. Tho these can be difficult to restore (see Michael Dunbar's "Restoring, Tuning and Using Classic Hand Tools" for a complete discussion of the subject), they are easier to use and give a great finished molding.

   I use a "drawer bottom fillester" for much of my grooving. It has a single 1/4" blade and a fence like a moving fillester that travels less than an inch or so. But this little plane (its probably only 6" long) doees 90% of my grooves. I rarely make a groove more than an 1" from an edge. Otherwise, bid low on an English wedge arm plow without a handle. These are fine tools that often go cheap.

   As to dadoes, there is almost never a time when one needs a dado close to an edge. Dadoes are very often applied 14" from an edge (or some such). So we work dadoes to an applied fence (often nailed, but you can clamp it in place). Just be careful where you put the nails! (see: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/blog3/WATCH+OUT+ADAM.aspx )

   Adam

5. 
   lwilliams | Jul 21, 2007 04:17pm | #7

   Mathew,

   Before you buy, I suggest you do some homework. At least two hollow and round numbering systems were used in Great Britain and three in the US. Even those weren't consistent from maker to maker. Even profiles like simple ogees varied from maker to maker and often varied over time within the same maker's catalogs.

   Earlier planes are better planes than later ones, a lot of compromises were made by later makers to cut labor costs. British wooden planes are generally better than American planes. Most people don't seem aware of the significant quality differences. My advise would be to look for British planes from the last quarter of the 18th Century through the first quarter of the 19th Century. Earlier planes are artifacts that probably shouldn't be used while later planes suffer from cascading problems resulting from production cost cutting by the makers.

   Most people don't know that wooden planes basically came as kits. They came without finish and unsharpened, the end user usually applied a finish and sharpened the iron(s) for the first time. There is no way to do the final tuning of any wooden plane until the iron is sharp so that also fell to the end user.

   The good part about this is the woodworking population who purchased these tools were generally pretty well skilled and took the necessary time to properly tune their planes. However you should avoid planes that bear scars inside the escapement from removing choked shavings. Even if the problems causing the choking can be fixed, often the scaring is bad enough to be fatal to proper function. Also initially avoid planes with heights of less than about 3 1/4" because they were likely re-profiled. Check the planes for warping and for cracks running from the blind side of the mouth.

   One thing I disagree with Mike about is starting with side bead planes. Side beads, because of their 180º cutting geometry are among the most difficult to tune and get working. Everything has to be right with side beads or you'll have problems. I suggest starting with hollows and rounds or the more simple profiles like ogees or ovolos.

   Buying collector planes to sit on a shelf is one thing and buying wooden planes to use is entirely different. I suggest you avoid eBay for user wooden planes. There are good and knowledgeable dealers out there or you can attend tool collectors meetings where you can actually examine a plane before you buy it.

   Larry Williams, who's never heard of a "drawer bottom fillester"

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/21/2007 9:21 am by lwilliams

1. 
   mwenz | Jul 21, 2007 11:32pm | #8

   That could be true in general, Larry. Especially for someone who has not sharpened profiled cutters before.I have found side beads are relatively easy to correct and or maintain than other profiles which I have bought vintage. (Well, all I have bought are vintage and most all profiles I bought needed some degree of tweaking.)My feeling is that the more going on in a profile there is more attention needed in sharpening, so cutters other than single hollow and or round profiles quirks and fillets need to "hit" and or match the sole very accurately. With something like a bead profile, if the quirk is a little proud it means more effort planing or a bit of tear out. With a small ogee (5/8" to 1" cutting width) there are more parts to align to the sole. Hence my feeling side or single center beads being easier.Irregardless of the first choice(s), do know that the profiles in all likelihood need to be tweaked for efficient use and that they will obviously need to be maintained.A good book for consumption is Whelan's book, The Wooden Plane. It has many/most of the profiles you in likely find and many you may never see in the wild. But it does a decent job of making you aware of what is out there.For furniture making, stick to smaller profiles. Cutters are easier to maintain, easier to use and are simply pertinent to the cabinet or furniture maker. For instance, I know a guy who was really happy to win a 3/4" bead plane on eBay--but short of some architectural profile, it'll never get used.Good luck...take care, Mike

6. 
   mufti | Jul 22, 2007 03:17pm | #10

              I have just had a holiday, and bought a pair of No 12, will post a picture later. The cost was £20 and condition is very good.

   One advantage of hollows and rounds for drop leaf purposes is they do not hammer the suface as a router cutter tends to. I find sharpening easy by holding the cutter in a vice and using diamond sticks.

7. 
   mufti | Jul 22, 2007 07:44pm | #11

               The photos show the pair of twelves bought on Friday, sixteens had for some time a gauge measuring 1/20,000 inch for my ego and part of a rememberance plaque in Easby church in Yorkshire. That shows the mouse of Kilburn carved as part of the frame.

   
8. 
   Toolemera | Aug 07, 2007 10:45pm | #12

   Matthew

   People have done a nice job of covering the particulars of wooden planes. I have one suggestion on which to purchase first or last or when. Buy a plane as you need it. Decide first what you need to do and buy a plane in the best possible shape to accomplish that task. As time goes on, you'll build up a set of planes that fit your needs. All too often folks buy a 'starter set' of tools and find that lots of them are unused. We all develope our preferences as we gain experience. Many good tool dealers will sell a plane all ready to go, just needing some final honing. Plus there are loads of people online who are happy to help get someone infected with woodie fever.

   BTW.. the drawer bottom fillister someone spoke of is one half of a British pattern short Tongue & Groove set. Why they made them so short, I don't know. I have one, and have seen them in various British tool catalogs.

   Best
   Gary Roberts(new to this forum)
   http://www.toolemera.com