Hi to all!
Am about to purchase a bandsaw for general shop use. Expecting relatively light use, as I work alone. I understand that 17″ and larger wheels tend to be easier on blades..? Have read a number of comparison articles wherein opinions are all over the map. Looking for best experiential advice as to both sizes and makes that seem to have been the most accurate and reliable amongst you experts.
Thanks in advance..
—John
Replies
Hey John, If you have the coin, Minmax is great. Aloha, Mike
Thanks for the feedback, Mike. Errrr... guess I might have been smart to have added that I've champagne tastes but a beer budget. Given a restraint on "coin", what machines lend themselves best to tweaking into some semblance of reliability? (Many are pretty good - I'd like to avoid the "I wish I'd bought a ..." blues, if advice will help to get me there.)---John
Hi John, About 7-8 years ago I decided to get a bandsaw. I have the beer budget thing going too (worse now that I've retired and have so much time to spend money) so I bought the 14" Jet and added a riser block about a year later. To make a long story short, the saw was off in some way - either the foot of the upper casting wasn't ground correctly where it mates to the lower or the riser block (I tried two of them) was out of parallel. The result was that the guide bar wasn't parallel to the blade and the guides had to be adjusted each time it was moved up or down. I got disgusted and sold it not too long afterward. Although most people really like this saw, I've heard about this problem from at least one other woodworker (on a web forum). I'm thinking about getting another bs now, probably a welded steel frame saw, I (now) think riser blocks are a kluge. I'm considering the Grizzly G0570 14" saw, which has a 1 1/2 HP motor and saws 8 1/8". Costs $733.00 with shipping. Sorry for being so windy.
Bill
Hi, Bill...Thanks for sharing that. BTW - if you've ever read any of my other postings, you'd know to *never* apologize to yours truly for being windy....har.I've been looking at the Grizzlys, too. Some comments I've read suggest that Grizzly's quality may be in question depending on the specific machine - would surely like to hear from owners regarding experience/upsides/downsides with specific models. Wish I could justify a "Cadillac", but I've a fleet to assemble, and feel obligated to seek out best bang for the buck. (Conversely, I've read that Grizzly's spiral cutterhead jointer is virtually flawless in performance, and have concluded that the "Anniversary Special" is just the ticket. Comments welcome.)I'm "retarded" - er, retired - too and am headlong into acquiring all the production machinery I've wanted for years but not 'til now had the time to employ.Regards,---John
John, I can speak about the quality of Grizzly stuff. My shop has a definite green tint to it. My first purchase was the G0513 HD BS. The top is flat, and the 2hp motor is more than enough to do the job. My saw arrived packaged well, and I had it going in no time. The finish is excellent (as long as you don't mind the color green). It is well made and is quiet as a mouse when running. On the recommendation of others here I replaced the stock blade with timberwolfe blades and it cuts like a dream. I would recommend a mobile base. It makes moving it easier. I have it against the wall and slide it out when needed. I looked at the laguna and minimax as well. I was upgrading from a shopsmith and wanted the most bang for the buck. At $795.00 + shipping it is a lot of saw. I was so impressed with the bandsaw that I purchased the 1023 TS. For what it cost for a laguna, I have a nice cabinet saw and bandsaw. Here are some pic's of the Grizzly BS. Give the folks at Suffolk machinery a call and talk to them. They can recommend a good blade to match what ever you are cutting. Don't get me wrong, a laguna is the Cadillac, but you would not be dissatisfied with the Grizzly at a significant savings in the pocket book. Good luck on the decision.
Hey, Bones...It was kind of you to have dug out all of those photos - a great help, and I appreciate your remarks. As you'll see in my reply to Forestgirl, I'm losing my mind over the presence/absence of various options among models.. Have you "pushed" your machine with resaw height? If you've done it, what's your experience with table and blade stability while maneuvering a dense/heavy workpiece, say, a 60 x 8 x 12/4 chunk of oak getting a complex curve?Regards,---John
No problem on the pics, I know I was uneasy buying blind so to speak. It's one thing to look at web site or a brochure, but it's another to see an actual picture of the different posts. As to my pushing it as you called it, I have not put a piece through the exact dimension yet, but I have cut some fine veneers very thin and and consistent. Cut some blanks with no problem either. Before I bought it, I called Suffolk Machinery (timber Wolfe blades) and spoke with them about what blades to get. My main purpose for the saw was veneers and cutting turning blanks. Those folks are strait up. I started out asking for a carbide blade, but after the guy talked to me, he recommended a lower cost blade that would be cheaper in the long run than investing in the carbide blade. Since he has fielded tons of calls from bandsaw users, I asked him if he got a lot of complaints from Grizzly owners. He said in the early days (years ago) quality was suspect on some of the grizzly stuff especially the very cheap stuff. He said the saw I was getting was solid and he had heard no complaints. He sold me a blade for cutting green logs for lumber, and turning blanks. A review I read in one of the rags gave the Grizzly high marks on the deflection test. I think with the proper blade, that grizzly would be fine. It will run at 110, but I have mine set to run at 220 (the default). Here is another pic of the underside. Good luck.
I cannot adequately express my gratitude and admiration for your conscientious followup. Well done! Remarks from Suffolk really useful - you did *your* homework, too. And...I'm just about convinced...Thanks again, Keith...---John
Edited 5/30/2005 3:05 pm ET by John
No problem on the response. I asked a lot of questions before I plopped the money down. I get nervous spending a lot of money on a machine I could not see or touch before buying. If I had it to do over, I would do the same thing with no regrets. I had about $2100 total budget to spend on ww equipment. If I bought the high end BS, I would have to keep using the shop smith as a table saw and drill press. It did the job, but it was a royal pain to set up and do test cuts all the time. Now I have the cabinet saw and bs and I just set it and go. It's a blast. Next year, I hope to add a 8" or larger jointer to the shop to replace the 6" delta piece of junk I have now. I'll be looking at grizzly again. I did not mention that customer service is great. When my table saw arrived it was damaged (in shipping). I refused delivery and called them. They had another one out to me the next day and I had another one at my door 5 days later. They even called to make sure this one was in good shape. Good luck on the decision. Ain't it fun to buy new toys!!
Hi, Bones...You bet it's fun. I'm a little desperate, as I need a buncha stuff, and there's a lot of newer technology re ww that I've not kept up with. At 62, I feel that these purchases are going to have to last for the duration, and I want to be pretty certain of my ground before jumping forward.You say you're looking for a jointer at 8" or more. Hmmm. Personally, I'm looking really hard at the 6x60 spiral head. Have heard nothing but good remarks about the spiral heads. They're not a brand new invention, but Griz has put 'em within reach.Rather than go "big" on a jointer, I'm leaning in the direction of upgrading planer for surfacing wide stock, and sticking with a 6" jointer, for what that thought may be worth. (Actually, a 4" would do within those confines, but they only come with knives and toy tables - I see 60" + spiral as a minimum.) Hmmm - $1k for 6" spiral, or $4k for a 12"(Griz.) My practical side says that I can do a lot of scraping and hand-planing for the $3k difference, and a high-speed planer for a lot less than $3k will markedly reduce that effort.Thanks again for sharing your insights.---John
Edited 6/2/2005 2:16 am ET by John
HAY LOOKS LIKE MY RICON.. What gives?
SAMEANG SAW! But more than OK for the money!
Edited 5/31/2005 2:43 pm ET by Will George
You know I was thinking that the Rikon looks a lot like Grizzly. About three or four months after I bought my Grizzly, the local Woodcraft started carrying Rikon. I looked at the 18" BS they had in the store. If you put them side by side they would be almost identical. The steel cases are identical in design. The only real difference I saw was the fence and blade support arm. They have a floor model (Rikon) radial drill press that looks really good at a cheap price. My only concern is Run out. Take care.
I was in Marketing.. We banded stuff to a customers name fer a price!
Bones,
Nice saw, but I have the same one too, so I'm more interested in your "Clan Crest" hanging on the wall, pictured in your second photo. Please zoom in a bit.
I'll get that for you tonight,
Check the Grizzly site
http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=420000&sort=price
The G0555 14" 1HP at $425 to me looks like a good buy for beer money - That is what I have decided on (I am on near beer funds) - I will be buying one in Aug. and will be getting the riser block for it as well. Not sure yet if I will buy or build a mobile base for it.
If I were to go above the G0555, I would go with G0513 17" 2HP for $795 ( on sale from $845) at this time.
Hi, Rick...Appreciate your remarks. Am highly attracted to the 17", but am still asking questions before I go and do sumpin' regrettable. Actually, I see little need for 12" resaw capacity, other than a possible itch to create big veneer panels. Seems that the range of 14" to 17" are arguably within spittin' distance of one another in cost range, with a huge jump from 17" to 18" "Super Hvy Duty." ArrrrghRegards,---John
I want the option to resaw up 12" but that will be rare. For what I need, the G0555 - their Ultimate 14" Bandsaw will fill the bill - it is a 2 speed, and looks to have a decent fence. Would I like the 17" with 2HP? sure! but my near beer budget limits me to about $500 I will probably add on upgrades, like cool blocks, urethane tires.. a bit at a time
The 1 1/2 HP 1073 16" for $665 would be a possibility too, with its cast iron wheels, 3 speeds and a lot of goodies, only I don't see that they offer a riser block for it and it only has a 7 3/4" cutting capacity.
So what type of beer budget are you on? Near beer like me ($400- $500)? Domestic? Import? Craft?1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Hi, Rick...Thanks for your good words - sorry to be a bit behind in responding.I hope Griz will respond to some tech talk from this old engineer. If I can get some straight answers about strengths and liabilities among the various designs, I'll post what I learn.Actually, my budget isn't terribly limiting, save that I want more stuff than I can ever have - or will have room to house. My dad once told my mother that she could have anything she wanted - but not everything. That's where I am. Sold my cruiser bike a few yrs ago when I got busy starting new biz - now I really want to get a ride under me again. The list goes on, but you get the idea. I feel that if I save $100 enough times, then I can treat myself to a top-drawer plane or some such, and maybe get on that bike.As a young man, I'd bought a fistful of "commercial grade" corded power tools, many of them Craftsman, and they're slowly but surely biting the dust. Got P/C's new mag saw, and can't believe the difference - love it. Need at least 3 new routers, a new sabre saw, jointer, band saw, shaper and dust collector. Have rebuilt old Craftsman contractor saw to the point that it's really pretty remarkable, so a cab saw's low on my list even though I'd love to have one. Would like to get tools I need for $5-6k, but am afraid that the bike will be sacrificed to finish the list.And the d...d computer bit the dust - more $ diverted to a sidestream.Haven't accumulated all I wanted over the years. Family traditions equipped me with enough skills to be dangerous with hand tools, and I always have sacrificed time by doing hand work so as to have $ for other things higher on growing family list. Now that I've time to get serious about stationary power tools, I need to get 'way too much stuff. Don't get me wrong - I love the hand work, and am grateful to be able to bang around a bit. I'm just ready to change hats and begin to crank things out more quickly.The final side of this many-sided coin is that I also do a middling job of carpentry, auto mechanics, auto painting, fancy and plain interior and cabinet painting, and a couple of others - upshot: a pretty large stable of tools not directly related to cabinetry but pretty useful in keeping a family's life going. Just can't get it all fast enough. Now it's finally my turn to devote a lot of effort in what I love most - butcherin' wood.Hang in...---John
Great to hear from you John.
Sounds like you have much under control.
Re Routers: If you have the room and your budget allows, get a 3HP to permantly use in a router table (can then forego the shaper), a 2/14 - 2 1/2hp kit that has the fixed and plunge base and finally either a trim router or a rotozip. I also keep my dremel around with the drill press, plunge router and router table attachements along with of its other bits and pieces. Of my recommendations, I do not have the 3 hp router yet, have all the rest.
Sabre/Jig saw - I am looking at the BOSCH 1590EVS - seems to be the highest rated and most powerful around.
Dust Collection: there are some good books out on the subject and both here and in Tool Talk there have been a number of discussions on that subject with a number of links to sites for further info and how to determine size of the DC and piping needs. Do not overlook the air filtration devices for airborne particles and possibly a cyclone and a cannister filter instead of a bag filter.
If you do not have one, a good planer needs to be considered. I bought the Delta 2 speed. If floor space and price had been differant, I would have looked at a 15" - 20" stationary one.
If you are doing some auto work, I imagine you have a compressor and a good drill press. What about a dedicated mortiser? Have you got/or want a lathe? any other hand tools such as chisels, sharpening equipment...?
Sounds like you have a handle on the jointer you want - wish I could afford a nice one like that!!! - - - want to share??? -- LOL
I know the many intersts thing all too well. Besides woodwork/carpentry I am the cook in the family, I love to use fresh herbs and veggies, so I am also the gardener. I work as a computer tech, so I am also the computer tutor/tech/fixer; auto maintenance mechanic, shop for the food, and full time DAD to a 12 year old boy ( that is 5'10 1/2" and wears size 13 shoes!!!) So we go camping and fishing together - see more stuff to cook!
I am making a cutting board and chopping block now - some nice big, thick, heavy ones out of rock maple. Cutting board is edge board and is 1.5" thick and 18x24"
The chopping is block is end grain with staggered joints like a wood floor and will be 2.5" thick and 12"x18"
Both boards will be edged with curly maple, scraped with a hand scaper and then finished with 4-6 coats of mineral oil - only thing I have not decided yet is if I should put a perimeter groove on one side of the board to collect the juices.
1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Hi, Rick...
Thanks for long ramble - always fun to hear the side stuff.Routers:
Agreed, I've 3, and need more plus replacements. Have 90's P/C laminate trimmer kit, and find that it's a real hoss for other small figures as well. Only problem with that machine is its lousy depth adjustment.I AM strongly considering router table instead of shaper. Shaper's mass cuts vibration, and makes for better cuts. Motor's rated for continuous duty, too. However, I'll not be into heavy production application, and I think a good 3hp router may be OK - would surely like to use one in a good table to see how it behaves.Looking pretty hard a PC 7519 3-1/4hp Speedmatic, 2-1/4hp 894PK fixed/pluge kit, and perhaps a little 100. Add a table, raiser, and Incra guide, and you're pretty deeply into shaper cost territiory - - so I'm still confusing myself with options.Saber Saw: That Bosch has the best reviews of all, and is my definite target.Dust Coll:
Used to design industrial D/C systems, so I hope I'll be able to dust off the cobwebs and get around OK in that arena! Biggest problem right now is finding combo of large enough (1200 CFM minimum at not less than 16" water) capacity and with superfine filtration - e.g., 0.5 micron. I may have to fab a secondary enclosure to capture exhaust down in that range - that is, to accept 5 microns or whatever is standard, then again filter the exhaust stream by means of enclosure over the whole unit. The danged small shop D/C mfgrs like to brag about volume, but most of them state same at zero bag loading and no lift - the water's full of alligators and sports d..d few knowledgable tech reps.Planer:
Running out of floor! I've an old Ryobi 10" that does a surprisingly good job, but it's only a 2-blade, and has pretty serious snipe probs. Thinking about newer 13" 3-blade with multispeed and post locks. Would give my left arm for a 24" floor model, but there's no justifying it.Mortiser:
Drill press attachment will do, I *think* .... we'll see. With 1-man shop, alternate tool application is tolerable, provided *everything* isn't in a single tool. Would never consider the likes of ShopSmith.Have a doofus lathe & good tools. Not my thing in general, but time will tell whether I want to upgrade. Have tons of bench chisels at differing bevel angles, but need mortising set. Only prob with sharpening is designing and fabbing a rig for 8" grinder that will let me flat-grind with good control. (Will post that when I finally get one working.)Jointer:
Sure I'll share - next time you're here in the middle of nowhere with a board in the trunk, c'mon over!That DAD stuff is the best thing any of us can have going, in my opinion. This curmudgeon is a pushover for kids, and I'm grateful to be the world's luckiest grandpa. I'm the in-house computer guy too, but the technology has grown so far beyond my 90's espertise that I might as well be planting beans.Cutting board (sounds pretty!) - to groove or not to groove? Well, you're gonna collect that juice somewhere, like it or not. Only question is where you want it to go ...Keep smilin'...---John
I made my own router table, cobbled it up from 3 differant plans and then combined 2 others for the fence.
I made the top out of 2 pieces of 1" thick cabinet grade plywood (NO VOIDS PLEASE}. that I laminated together and covered top and bottom with laminate and edged the whole thing with 3/4" thick white oak. I put an aluminum miter slot and t-track in it and used the woodhaven plate. Rock solid unit1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Hi, Rick...That's the direction I'd go, too. The associated gadgetry is where the bucks vaporize, no? - lift, Incra fence, etc.Incidentally, as you and others read this, I'd appreciate comments for router vs shaper in consideration of intent to form some heavy, intricate moldings such as for breakfront crown, etc. - with implication of large cross-sections.---John
Well, there really is no comparison between a good sized shaper and a router table. Not to knock a router table, I use mine a lot. I also have two shapers that see a lot of use. The larger of the two, a five hp Delta RS15, is easy to use and cuts great. The price of cutters can kill though, like $150-$200+. That is usually enough to make the choice easy. With the quality of router bits a shaper only makes sense if you are doing a large volume, or spining large cutters. Still have to say I love mine.
I hear every word of that. In musings over the years, I'd pretty well concluded that I'd want a router table, even in presence of shaper. Am thinking that I'll probably wind up going "full zoot" with a router table upgrade, and see how it serves me - vibration is really my only unresolved concern. Larger cutters are even OK if you're willing to slow down and make less aggressive passes. I worry a little about potential to spend $150-200 for raised panel sets, as shaper cutters would be about the same investment. Sure wish I had the acreage for not only a table but TWO shapers ... !Know anyone over that way who needs to sell a used shaper...?---John
Edited 6/3/2005 11:27 pm ET by John
Buy low and keep is my motto. The smaller shaper is a 2hp Rockwell "place holder" but it still gets some use. It is a bit anemic, but serves a dedicated purpose. I have thought about selling it, but not seriously, unless I upgrade to a large sliding table shaper. It's a sick world out here in the trenches.
Sick it may be, but you seem to have your head on pretty straight in spite of it, as do most of the other "first responders" in this here now forum. Surely have appreciated opportunity to yak a bit - maybe can look you up if I get over to Whidbey. Lemme know if you're headed East on 90. (That's an open invite to the group - I make a decent cuppa Joe and can most likely find one with your name on it.)---John
Edited 6/3/2005 11:51 pm ET by John
John,
I did not realize you were so close(in state). With a new baby we don't get out much, but thanks for the invite. The doors here are open. I've got an interesting collection going. Some really old, some new. I just made it through my first year as an LLC woodworking buisness. Lately I feel like I need to unplug the phone, which is a good thing. Sixteen years in the biz, but this really puts the thrill back into it. I have some things over on the OWM site if you want to see the handy work.
You bet I'd like to see them - how about a link? (Sorry, ol'stupid's brain cells ain't processing "OWM" intelligibly...)---John
Oh yeah, that would help. The site is http://www.owwm.com. Look under the members search for Wirth. It is also a good site to see a bunch of interesting older tools.
Thanks. Searched 'til patience ran out - all I found was discussion messages. Let me know when your site is up!---John
I don't have a 17" saw, so can't help ya there, but I think you're wise to go that direction (over a 14") if you have the budget for it. I'll suggest you ask around at the different forums about the Grizzly G0513 . It's only $100 more than their 14" welded-steel frame saw (G0570) but gives you the full 12" resaw capacity, and a 2HP motor. There should be enough users out there to get some opinions, and posts with a specific model number would get you quick feedback hopefully.
Their annual summer sale runs until.....hmmmmmm.......nothing on their web site. September, maybe? Anyone know?
Another hmmmmm: Interesting that the 14" version has cast iron wheels. 17" version, aluminum.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi, Forestgirl...Thanks for the good advice. This is a really tough decision - I desperately want to avoid later regrets, so saving too many dollars isn't necessarily "best bang for the buck." Seems to me that options such as urethane tires, guide block upgrades, etc. are reasonably easy to add as-needed, but "bones" will make the difference in the long run - cast iron, trunnion construction, table, fence, resaw capacity, frame rigidity, d/c porting, etc.There's no getting around paying more for desirable features - e.g., the G0506 18" seems to have most of it - disc guides, h/d trunnion, cast iron fence, cast iron wheels, urethane tires, full-height welded frame - the works - but its resaw capacity is only 9-3/4. It's also nearly twice as much as the 16" G1073Z, which has sturdier construction of fence and table than the 14" and 17" - but has rubber tires and blah blah blah.It appears that there's little consistency in the Grizzly lineup - specs vary widely among all the machines, which suggests that there's not a "this really works" standard. It's so confusing I think I'll just go eat sawdust ... sniffle...More opinions/experience welcome!!---John
"It appears that there's little consistency in the Grizzly lineup...." To a certain extent, I think this is because they redesign the machines kinda one-at-a-time. For instance, the 14" line is now completely redesigned. They have 3 models, 2 looking like your usual 14" saw (cast iron frame, rounded cast iron design), but with major upgrades from the 1019 series and one with the steel column approach.
Their 16" saw is still the old-fashioned look. The 17"+ saws are now all the newer design. I suspect because the 16" saw was so well received and has such a long track record, they're leaving it 'til last to redesign. Stick with a big winner as it were.
You are wise to go through the nitty gritty details of the different saws and see what you'd get and what you'd give up, or have to change (for instance, rubber tires could be replace with PU, right?). I'm partial to quick blade releases myself, and that's a pretty expensive add-on. It's looking like cast iron wheels are getting pretty rare on any saw less than 18". What about, in general, cast iron frames vs. the welded steel columns -- with regard to flex?
Ramble, ramble..........forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi, Forestgirl...Sorry to be so tardy with response. Greatly appreciate your remarks and insights. Gonna see if Griz has tech rep who can really give me tech numbers about flex, etc., re cast versus welded designs. Also, I don't know much about advances in light metal wheels for the likes of bandsaws. No question about advantages of heavier cast - not only stability but smoothness as result of higher inertia. I'm sure Griz will have answers - we'll have to see if we like 'em.That 16" is *really* tempting, though the resaw capacity of the 17 offers its own siren call. I've a sneaking hunch that the 17 is probably going to be pretty attractive, as I'll not be subjecting it to production shop rigors. Just need enough solid strength to be able to maneuver heavy workpieces without bending sumpin' or having the danged thing jump out of alignment. Blah, blah, blah - will try to get you caught up with what I learn and finally decide as this journey unfolds.Regards,---John
re cast versus welded designs...
No I do not have a degree in metallurgy (or spelling?).
However I have worked with metal all my life (more that wood in fact)..
For my two cents.. I'd take a welded tube steel box over iron any day for strength and resistance to flex..
But what I know?
Hi, Will...Thanks for comments. CI is more rigid than a weldment of equal dimension, but welded steel cross-sections are usually calculated to overcome flexure. I doubt there's really a problem with any of the welded configurations.---John
Forest..
Ramble, ramble.......... Ya do that ALOT but come up with good stuff!
I have a very old 27" band saw that I love, but would get a 14" Delta if I was looking for a starter, or second, saw. It might be more than you want to spend thought. It will be a sad day when Delta decides to quit making there 14" saw in the US. It is a very good product, and would say get one while you can. I bought a Delta belt/disc sander before they quit making them in the US. It is a great machine, from the castings to the small stuff.
Hi!Thanks for weighing in. I know that Delta has been highly regarded for many years, at least for some of their equipment. What with a long shopping list, I'm hoping to learn that Griz can offer top performance at a lesser price. We'll see. I will definitely look into the Delta offerings.---John
My thought is that you don't get something for nothing. The Grizzly equipment is a lot less, but there are some real reasons for that. At the same time if the machine is not going to be used heavily it probably won't make a lot of difference. There is higher end equipment than Delta to be sure, but they make some good machines. Delta and Powermatic are responding to the importing of lower priced, lower quality machines by sending there production overseas, and lowering quality. It is sad, but that's reality. I would come out in favor of cast iron frames as well. Iron is very rigid, and dampens vibration. The welded steel frames are great, but also a cost saving measure. There are easier to produce. From the hobbiest to big industry we all have to balance cost and benefit. If cost was no object this would be a different conversation. Have you concidered buying used. Most of my equipment is used, and have no regrets.
Yup yup and agreed. However, if the weldments are properly fabricated, then strength and damping mass should still work out OK. No problems here with used, save for determining accessibility of parts. If a machine is basically good, then it can usually be tweaked to superiority - at, least that's my experience. Have looked for used, but I always seem to wind up looking at stuff in the East, and freight would be a deal-breaker - - or the seller will have nothing to do with crating and shipping. Finding the right machine at a reasonable distance is a matter of luck and timing, I think.---John
I have a 18" RIKON and a little 9 inch? Delta..
I LOVE them both for what they CAN do...! Well, cept for trying to move that 18 inch!
EDIT:::
On that "I wish I'd bought a ..." Well.. we all do that... You could spend a million dollars on something.. Walk out the door happy as heck.. Then ya see this one fer 1,500,000... that looks better...
Edited 5/31/2005 12:18 pm ET by Will George
Hi, Will...Thanks for coming to the party! I'm reading you - the little saw is undoubtedly a treasure when it's needed. My wife thinks I own every tool ever invented (you all know *that* story.) The apparent dupes in different configurations really do make life easier.You're right on the mark about the "wish Id'a done that" syndrome. I'm trying to do my homework with some care - at 62, I'm probably making the last of my investments in stationary tools...Whether saw or motorcycle or bread knife, I tend to push equipment to its limits. If I can lift it with a comealong, then I want to make something out of it - - tooling needs to be fairly hefty and capable or I'll eventually outpace it. On the other hand, why does an old goat want to spend so d...d much on stuff that will outlive him? 'Cause he's an old goat that still has all his teeth, that's why. Har.Regards,---John
Hi John,
I recently got a 14 Laguna SE, and am very happy with it. It a a nuisance to assemble due to the inherent mass involved, but it cuts very well. If I was going to go the production shop route instead, I think that the Minimax or Laguna are the way to go (at least in the <$2000 range). As people point out occasionally, mass is an important component of how stable your saw is whether BS (or TS), and these saws have that.
My 2 pennies worth
Hi, Rog...Thanks for help with my homework! Tell me - the Laguna 14SE is appr same cost as Griz 19HD (G0514)- why did you choose Laguna over Griz or others?(Laguna site is nice, but there's not much detailed construction info.)Regards,---John
Hi John,
I did look at some of the less expensive Grizzly products, but not the model you referenced. But I sort of had my heart set on Minimax, or a Laguna bandsaw. I sort (I hope...) have gotten to the stage in may career that I have decided to buy the better quality tools, particularly when it comes to powered instruments (still I do make decisions on price, all things being roughly equal). Reading the posts about Grizzly and Laguna, I just did not have the strength of conviction about Grizzly quality conntrol (misplaced, perhaps) vs the Laguna. The deciding factor between the Laguna and Minimax came down to free shipping vs not with the Minimax ($300 to where I live). My gut tells me that the Minimax 16"-model I would have bought would have been better, but I am still a weekend woodworker, but did I need a 16" BS-most unlikely-they no longer made the 14").
Rog, that's as honest and unbiased an answer as I've heard. Kudos.Thanks to all of the responses and opinions offered, I'm leaning toward believing that no mfgr in his right mind is going to try to sell junk in the $1k range - it just won't float. Short of going to true industrial equipment at twice that (or so), there's likelihood that any of the "braggable" offerings are going to deliver credible performance, each with its specific shortcomings. The discussions of factory support have been most revealing, and are, for me at least, one of the deal-breakers.What I'm hearing is that Mini-Max and Griz are both pretty strong contenders, particularly if a mechanical bent will lend a hand in overcoming corner-cutting necessary to support Griz prices. ForestGirl's comment about tension lever is a good one - much more likely to treat the blade properly if it isn't a major hassle - which points more strongly in favor of Griz 19" HD G0514 (but is it really worth $200?) I wish that Mini-Max' site were more informative - guess I'll have to call them before making decision. Although the 19" Griz is $400 more than I'd hoped to pay, it appears to have nearly all of the stuff of which happiness is made. Further, it appears that the 18 and 21" SHD's are genuinely production machines (look at blade speeds, brake, etc.), but their price jump doesn't make much sense for small shop use. Gotta go to Bellingham and look.Does that sound like I'm leading myself down the garden path, y'all, or does there seem to be some sense to it? ---John
If you haven't already, check their site - they are having a summer sale and you just missed their tent sale on May 15 - call and ask when their next one is.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Hi, Rick...You bet. Am actually planning at this point to get to Bellingham and do a little hands on checking since there are several tools in the offing. If they'll not help me out with apackage deal, then I'll just wait until a sale presents itself...Regards,---John
John,
If you have the time and patients, seeking out a good used bandsaw can yield a rock solid machine with many years of life left in it. Some used machines will need some repair or restoration, but that can be half the fun. Bandsaws are not ultra complex machines to repair - and in doing so you will learn a great deal about the tool, how it's constructed, and the best way to get the maximum performance out of it.
I have bandsaws in my shop that I originally purchased new - but I'm having a great time restoring a Crescent 26" bandsaw that I just picked up. The machine was built in 1916 and originally was powered by a flat belt system in a factory. The replacement sheave (drive pulley) alone is over 17" in diameter, takes four v-belts, and weighs in excess of 45 pounds. The complete saw weighs in excess of 800 pounds. When this saw is completely restored, its performance will rival or beat the machines I have that were built 3/4 of a century later.
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Hello Jackie,
We are on the same wave lenght.But your words are only of relevance to those with mechanical interest and ability to restore these old machines.I have not followed all the posts in this thread, so would the others please excuse me if I post this "for general interest"-and practise camera use in the process.
Wheel diameter 30", motor hp 3(British).Maker-not known-may be German. Date stamp on casting; 1923. Weight: plenty. My satisfaction: delirious.
Cost me very little to sort out- roller bearings were good and just needed cleaning out. I made up covers and guards etc and "found" pulley and motor.Intend to install 20;1 gearbox I have on hand so I can cut "other" things one day.
Sorry- big pictures have struck again-is it because I changed to fine compression ?
Edited 6/5/2005 6:21 am ET by mookaroid
Mook:Resized, rotated pix.Size is probably due to fine compression you mentioned.Great saw! Leon Jester
Hi...Thanks for sage advice - you're right, there's nothing like getting your hands in it to gain familiarity. Have been on lookout for used tools forever, or so it seems. Devilishly hard to find (other than postings), as it seems that every serious user has "eyes" out there - actually finding a good one is a rare occurrence, at least for me.---John
John,
Keep looking for those used tools. It's very much a game of patience and persistence. Sometimes you are lucky and find what you're looking for straight away. The majority of the time, it takes a dedicated effort of constantly checking the local want ads, auction listings, etc... make sure people know you're looking - the more eyes looking increases you odds.
To add to your personal quote:
Time is the wisest counsellor - Pericles
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Hi, Dan...Excellent quote. Another of my favorites is; "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."Regards,---John
Speaking of old iron, I was at an auction yesterday in Michigan. They sold off an American B-36 (?) bandsaw. It had 36" cast iron spokes with oak wheels and rubber tires. The machine was over 9' tall (there was a hole cut in the ceiling for its height), had a newer 3hp General Electric motor, magnetic switch, and was still in service (i.e., it was working and tuned). The thing must have weighed 1500 lbs. There were handweels on this machine which were bigger than the steering wheel of my Civic.Selling price: $400. No one wanted to move it!-Matt
O.K, Dan,
Some of us may have seen the 17" pulley, at a magnificent 699 KILOBYTES-are we to hold our breathe for the whole machine?
"Some of us may have seen the 17" pulley, at a magnificent 699 KILOBYTES-are we to hold our breathe for the whole machine?"
M,'
In my zeal to get this project underway, I neglected to take a photo of the fully assembled machine. As this will be a better than new restoration, I've dismantled the saw down to the last fitting. Currently many of the parts are in my electrolysis tanks for rust removal.
I've enclosed a photo of one of the saw's adjusting knobs that I did some initial electrolysis testing with. I used a degreaser initially, then the electrolysis, and finished up with a small brass brush chucked into a Dremel tool. No abrasives of any sort were used.
The other photo is a Jet 14" bandsaw table sitting on top of the larger of the two Crescent tables - just for size comparison. The larger Crescent table alone weighs in excess of 90 lbs.
On Monday, I am picking up a Crescent 16" jointer of the same vintage as the saw (1916 - 1918). I'll be sure to take photos before dismantle it.Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Yep, those knobs have got that look about them.The way to tackle a good , old machine is to thoroughly clean it first, totally disassemble and clean again-then you see how the thing works/adjusts. I have been amazed at what paint and grime covers up.Wire brush wheels make short work of cleaning , but also they impart that burnished look to cast iron.
What bearings does that Crescent have? Are you are able to deal with white metal bearings ?
Looking forward to seeing photos of the jointer-you need to get a grip of sending smallish files though..... If you use the smallest setting at the camera stage it helps e.g 640x480 pixcels.
The Crescent has Babbitt bearings. I'm going to re-pour the bearing using a Tin based Babbitt material. Its the best for handling high speed, high heat, heavy sustained loads.
I'll post some photos of the Crescent 16" jointer next week.
Here's a resized photo.Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
Babbitt bearings...
Sort of off topic BUT..
When I was younger (a lot younger) I worked with this old man... Well, me and a few others... He was surfacing Babbitt bearings with Bluing and a draw knife!
Old steam driven generator... We would crank the main shaft (about 4 foot in diameter? Well, big...) up and down.. Torque the cap bearing in place... Rotate the shaft with this LONG lever one revolution... Take the cap off,, Jach up the shaft,, move it out of the way..
He would yse the draw knife to remove the blue..
I think we did that 12 hours a day for a month of so...
Old man claimed that when he was finished.. Bearings were so good that the oil cup on the top cap had enough oil to let the generator run a week.. He claimed the shaft NEVER touched the Babbitt bearings... Just the oil..
You know what? I believed him!
He was something.. As a kid I remember that... As we were workin' he would sip from his flask..
God I wish I could get him to give me some tips on woodworking!
Dan, seems you missed the sarcasm in Mook's post. He was trying (I think!) to draw attention to the file size of the photos. Those of us with dial-up connections are at a disadvantage here!
Apologies in advance to Mook if I misinterpreted.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 6/11/2005 2:31 am ET by forestgirl
Hi forestgirly,
No need for apologies-it was an attempt at levity but the sarcasm was unintended. You will see that the pixies are decreasing and we are going to see more fine old machines!
Hi Mook, I was trying to find a word other than "sarcasm" but it was very late, I was very sleepy (and a little tipsy, giggle, giggle) -- no luck. Dan and I swapped emails, and I sent him a 30kb redux of the knob picture.
Corresponding with you Downunder guys gets me confused. My screen shows you up at 1:39AM! I get mail from Dave in Cairns and it's dated the day after I get it!
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 6/11/2005 1:24 pm ET by forestgirl
> Corresponding with you Downunder guys gets me confused. My screen shows you up at 1:39AM! I get mail from Dave in Cairns and it's dated the day after I get it! <
We're on the other side of the dateline, so I'm sitting here emailing at 11.30am Sunday, and for my boy at OSU it's now 7.23pm on Saturday night (and for my daughter in London its 25 past midnight on Sunday!
I once lost New Years Eve, flow from one year to the next somewhere over the Pacific without a chance to celebrate!
Malcolm
Oops, time passed while I emailed - all of those times ought to show the same mintes (11.25, 7.25, 0.25)
New Zealand | New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Edited 6/11/2005 7:29 pm ET by kiwimac
OK, this is really weird: The pictures above in Dan's post ("Jackie Chan") have been resized, but the new file size doesn't show in the attachment icon information. Eeeeenteresting. They're actually, like, 30-55kbs. Great stuff!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Don't you know-these computers have minds of their own....
Wow! Even the knobs! Cool..
Good luck and have fun!
Dan:Resized pix of your Crescent.Leon Jester
John ,
I recently read the following : '' I've never regretted the price of a quality tool , but have often resented the inconveniece of a low price knock off . The pain of latter lasts longer."
Regards from Africa
Pine
Hey, Pain ...Agreed, to an extent. There are a slew of combatants, all trying to gain market share. If one offers a unit with "good bones" but lesser price, there can be a good bargain for the individual who's willing to
perform a little tuneup work. One of the great values of these forums is the opportunity to gain a LOT of info from folks who've tried the variations.Regards,---John
John,
Read all the replies to your post and guess you are moving toward decision time.
All I wish to add, is that I also have the 17" Grizzly and have done just about everything with it. Resaw with a 1" carbide blade works well too. I've had a couple of huge logs through this machine as well.
If you are on a beer budget, this is a good buy. My only criticism is the blade guides. Although they are Euro, the adjustment and alignment is a bit iffy. I tried to upgrade them to those used on the 18" heavy duty machine and I'm waiting for a reply from Grizzly. Somehow, I don't think this will be possible. Perhaps one day, I will make my own.
the adjustment and alignment is a bit iffy..
My RICON also... Ball bearings Not the disks..'
After I finish my Horisontal router table I am goint to work on that...!! LOL
Thank you , kind sir! Amongst y'all, you've pretty weill convinced me. FG's comments re tensioner have me glancing at the 19". Please do let me know where you get with guide substitution - it's an item that crops up in every article, and one I'm betting that I' too will become desperate about.Regards,---John
If Money aint't an issue look into Mini Max Saws or Laguna Saws. Both very good but on the costly side. But a bandsaw being a very useful tool by the best for your budget. It repays you in the quality of your work
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