Replies

1. 
   Dave45 | Mar 23, 2004 08:36pm | #1

   A friend of mine just built a pre-fab metal workshop (2000 sq ft) for his machine shop.  It's in California, so weather isn't a big issue, but he put in a radiant heat system in the floor.  So far, it's great.  No hot/cold spots anywhere in the shop.  The only area of concern was placing machinery.  I helped make an "as-built" drawing of the heat tubing so he knows where he can drill in the floor.

2. 
   PlaneWood | Mar 23, 2004 09:30pm | #2

   >>I am assuming I should build a small "room" for the cyclone to help reduce the noise. Is this useful?

   Yes, and put a large filter in the door to help clean the return air.  You don't want to exhaust the return air outside in -20 weather! 

   >>would having running water be a big enough advantage to warrant the expense?

   Put in a small bathroom with a small shower, commode, and stainless steel sink.

   >>Any suggestions/recommendations on wall thickness - 2"x6" framing.

   6" walls definitely.  10"+ insulation in the ceilings.

   >>lighting?

   Lots.  You don't want to many windows as that will detract from wall space for hanging things.  Plus, lose more heat.  4 bulb instant on flourscents on 6' centers is great with workbench lamps for detailed work.

   >>Dust collection.

   Why not hang the pipes from the ceiling in the bottom floor and then have a pipe going vertically through the 1st floor ceiling into the upstairs.  Get a remote control on switch and a remote control blast gate for the pipe going up stairs.  Have the DC room downstairs close to one of the garage doors.  Don't know if a cyclone is necessary but a separator is in order to prevent large stuff from hitting the impellors.  Mine is just a 44 gallon Rubermaid trash can. You might also want to put an upright compressor in the DC room with a replaceable air intake filter.  Those things are loud.

   >>Electrical outlets.

   Figure out how many you want then double it.  Put some in the ceiling too.

   >>Clean room.

   Try to allow for a small room for finishing.  Have it well sealed off from the rest of the workshop.  Extra filters in the heat ducts and an exhaust fan to remove fumes. 

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood

1. 
   konrad | Mar 24, 2004 06:19pm | #5

   Thanks!

   Good call on not venting out in -20. I think I will plan on a small bathroom as well. Having water access will be a big advantage for sharpening alone. Doubling the wiring is also wise - many people have mentioned that too.

   Take care, Konrad

1. 
   PlaneWood | Mar 24, 2004 08:42pm | #8

   I've considered getting one of those double wide stainless steel deep sinks that sets against the wall and has it's own legs.

   Also, the bottom sack on my DC is heavy duty disposable plastic.  I get the 3 mil Husky Contractor Grade sacks at Home Depot (in the yellow box).  Emptying a cloth sack is not good.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

2. 
   silver77 | Mar 28, 2004 06:56pm | #16

   This is a great discussion. Lots of useful ideas.

    

   I have a 24' x 40' shop now but hope to build a better shop in the near future and use the present for finishing and storage.

    

   I hope this isn't a hijack but do you have a source for remote control systems? From Lee Valley,I'm looking at $90.00can plus shipping.

    

   Thanks,silver

    

    

     

   "Why not hang the pipes from the ceiling in the bottom floor and then have a pipe going vertically through the 1st floor ceiling into the upstairs.  Get a remote control on switch and a remote control blast gate for the pipe going up stairs." 

1. 
   PlaneWood | Mar 29, 2004 08:06am | #19

   No, I don't.  I've seen the one in the Lee Valley catalog.

   My shop is so small, I really don't need one.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood

1. 
   silver77 | Mar 29, 2004 09:20am | #20

   I'm going try Radio Shack and an intercom supply wholesaler today.

   I think it could be a generic remote control system...

   I'm hoping to improve productivity... 

   silver

1. 
   TomMGTC | Mar 29, 2004 01:52pm | #21

   Give some thought to putting microswitches on your blast gates. You can run low voltage wiring from them to control the dust collector. Very convenient setup. You have to open the blast gate anyway so you may as well use it to turn the collector on. Don't have to keep track of the remote either.  Tom

   Douglasville, GA

2. 
   silver77 | Mar 29, 2004 06:47pm | #22

   Hi Tom,

   "put microswitches on your blast gates. Run low voltage wiring from them to control the dust collector. "

   This is a great plan!...

   Microswitches for blast gates? What else do I need to source?...Radio Shack??

   Thanks,

   silver

2. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:32pm | #32

   I wish I was that far into the process to be thinking about remote for the DC:) I didn't even know LV had them - thanks for the tip. From others I have talked to about cyclones, that seems to be a reasonable price. I guess after the expence of the entire shop, what is another $90?

   Cheers, Konrad

3. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 24, 2004 05:15am | #3

   Use SIP's to build it.. (structural insulated panels - those foam panels with OSB on each side) 

        Traditional stick framing is too expensive to heat and cool.. takes too long to build and doesn't have the fire resistance of a SIP

    figure cost at around $3.00 sq.ft for walls and $4.00 a sq.ft for the ceiling..

     Use in floor radiant heat (wirsbo is a trade name)  and your feet will thank you especially in the winter.. (use a water heater instead of a boiler for a shop, much cheaper and better) 

     You can build the shop either as a stand alone place or around timberframe to show off your skills.  

     You will have to make your own decision about windows.. Wonderful light and helps eliminate SAD's (seasonal affected disorder)  on the other hand it could be a source of future vandelism, and wherever you put one it will interfer  with something.. finally all windows are a source of heat loss..

1. 
   konrad | Mar 24, 2004 06:27pm | #6

   Thanks for the SIP's tip - I had forgotten about that. I will start asking around about availability and cost.

   I am curious as to why you think the water heater in the shop is cheaper and better than running a line from the house? It may be a larger initial cost outlay, but there are no issues with venting or space loss. Just curious. Maybe the cost of insulating the line etc will be too much I don't know yet.

   Thanks for the input, Konrad

1. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 29, 2004 09:55pm | #23

   Konrad,

    sorry it's been a while since I've been in touch.. Darn virus!  Anyway  I must have had a brain fart when I suggested the water heater.. yes it should be cheaper to run a line from the house even with losses.. 

     I like keeping the flame out of your work space.. Safer and less likely to cause problems..

     Hope you find a local guy who can do the SIP's I just came back from my guy and I was shocked to find out that the price of OSB has driven the cost of the panels up dramatically..  I would either wait a while for the price of OSB to come down or search agrressively for the guy with a lot of osb on hand who hasn't raised his prices as  yet..

1. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:42pm | #34

   You get those too eh:) Don't worry about it.

   I have my contractor looking into it for me. He has used them before, so the issue is only cost at this point. Maybe the price has not skyrocketed here yet - I can only hope!

   Take care, Konrad

1. 
   yotonyb | Mar 30, 2004 08:06pm | #36

   If you have to run a trench for your utilities, would it make sense to reserve some space for any future possibilities?  Unless you have the utilities delivered right to the structure, you might as well run the hot and cold water, black pipe for gas, Cat5/Cat6 for ethernet, fiber optic, coaxial and anything else you can dream up.  It doesn't have to be connected to anything...cap it...but it's there.

   An empty segment of 4" pvc pipe from house to shop opens up some possibilities.

   Related issue for others in this discussion...does your local zoning permit a separate electrical drop and meter to your "garage shop" or must you take power from the house?

   tony b.

2. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 09:19pm | #37

   Hi Tony,

   A good question about the separate electrical meter - I will ask. I like your thinking on running everything and worry about connecting it later. As you said, once the trench is done, fill it up with all the options.

   Thanks, Konrad

3. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 31, 2004 05:15pm | #40

   Careful about that,  one pipe for everything.. some things shouldn't be put in the same pipe.. other things can't because of code rules. it would be terrible to have a 4 inch pipe with nothing in it except phone lines for example..

4. 
   konrad | Mar 31, 2004 05:18pm | #41

   Very true. I suspect the various trades people would remind me of that, but this saves me from looking dumb - thanks.

   Cheers, Konrad

2. 
   alanplanesaw | Mar 29, 2004 04:05am | #18

   Frenchy,

   "Wonderful light and helps eliminate SAD's (seasonal affected disorder)  on the other hand it could be a source of future vandelism.."

   'splain this some more, please.  What sort of light are you talking about?

   Thanks,

   Alan - planesaw

1. 
   fdampier5 | Mar 29, 2004 11:05pm | #24

   Windows provide natural light.  In northern climates we have a problem called SAD's  Seasonal affected disorder.  Due to the shorter days and longer nights plus cloudy, snowy, overcast days etc.  in northern climates we find the population is dramatically affected by a lack of  natural sunlight.  Northern climates tend to produce more depression and suicides because of this tendancy..

     (the first tme I heard about it I said BS!!!!! however there are plenty of studies proing the validity of SAD's

1. 
   BarryO | Mar 30, 2004 10:33am | #25

   SAD is real.  My wife gets it. 

   This winter, she bought a light box, which she sat next to while drinking her morning coffee.   It seemed to work - her sleep patterns were normal this winter, and the "winter blahs" weren't as noticable.

   'no need for it today in OR; the sun was out all day with a high of 74F.  Spring is here!

4. 
   PolarBear | Mar 24, 2004 07:22am | #4

   Konrad,

   I have just built a 2400 SF garage/shop up in Alaska.  I installed Radiant heat and love it.  I keep the shop at about 62 degrees F and it is wonderful.  I also insulated with 6" of fiberglass in the walls (R-19) and 16" of cellulose in the ceiling (R-60).  I would recommend cellulose for ease of installation and cost if you have an open ceiling where you can blow it in.  You might also think about urethane - it's spendy, but it has some serious advantages over other stuff.  Up here it runs about $2.75/SF US, and guessing at your description, you might be looking at $2,000-$3,000 US

   I did put a trench in my floor to run ductwork, electrical, and air to the center of the building.  I would do it again in a heartbeat.  You could do the same from the ceiling, but it seems like then you are always fighting cords and ductwork.

   I agree with PlaneWood on the water issue.  I put a bathroom in the shop and would not do without.  It's a great place to clean up when I come in out of the woods and If you tile the walls all the way up and put in a floor drain, you can even wash the dogs without all the mess in the house.  It's also nice to have running water for my sharpening stones and just general cleaning up.

   I put quite a few windows in the building and would do the same again.  It does detract from the wall storage, but the natural light more then makes up for the small losses.  I also put in 2 bulb T-8 flourescent lights with 5000k lamps (I think they are called full spectrum).  The bulbs cost about $3.00/lamp, but really throw out the light and don't cost much to run.  I put in 12 fixtures in the shop and another 12 in the garage with a few extra in the office and finish room and over the benches.  Really makes working out there a joy.  I also put in smooth-wall drywall and painted it bright white.  I thought about painting the floor, but really did not need it when all was said and done.

   I agree with PlaneWood on the electrical outlets.  I put mine every 4 feet and put 2 circuits in each box.  The inspector asked if I thought I had enough, but I am never at a loss for a place to plug something.  I also ran about double the number of 230 volt circuits I need today so I don't have to fish wire in the walls at a later date.

   Good luck and enjoy your new shop.

   Steve

1. 
   konrad | Mar 24, 2004 06:33pm | #7

   Wow - great big shop! I have concluded that I will also go radiant heating as there has been overwhelming positive response to it. Someone in another forum suggested that the radiant floor heating guy should be driving the insulation of the space. Does that sound like good advise to you? I will ask him about the urethane as well. How did you adapt the radiant floor around the trench - were there a lot of layout restrictions because of it? I would be interested to hear how you planed that aspect of your shop.

   I am also planning on lots of windows and the full spectrum lights. I have been spoiled with them at work and could not revert to anything less. Darn this expensive taste:)

   Thanks for your help,

   Konrad

1. 
   PolarBear | Mar 25, 2004 12:21am | #11

   I would let the radiant guy recommend insulation options that have worked for him/her in the past.  I would guess that any insulation that meets code would work for you.  Up here, it is R-19 in the walls and R-38 in the ceilings.  Fine Homebuilding had a pretty good discussion of the pros and cons of insulation in one of the recent issues - I can't find that one right now, but I think it was this year.  You might want to check that out.  One thing I didn't mention in my other post was that I did put down 2 inches of styrofoam under the slab.  Some of the guys I work with think that is overkill, but I figure it can't hurt.

   When I did the trench, I welded up a 12" X 12" X 20' steel box that just got buried with the top being 3/4" below the final slab height.  I welded rebar stubs to the sides to keep it from floating up when they poured the floor.  I also welded flanges on the sides and bolted plywood to the flanges - instant trench.  In the area of the trench, the heating tubes are 12" on center and parallel with the trench, so I just moved them a couple of inches off of the trench to get concrete all the way around them.  I imagine there is a slight temperature difference between this part of the floor and the rest of the shop, but I can't tell even in bare feet.

   I did have to put the trench a couple of feet off the outside wall to get the rebar into the edge (slab on grade) and I did not think ahead to put in my conduit so it comes out of the trench and across the floor.  It's not a big deal for me since my dust collector is going to sit above them, but if I had it to do over again, I would have punched holes in the end of the trench and stubbed the conduit out of the concrete.

   Steve

5. 
   derekb | Mar 24, 2004 08:53pm | #9

   Hello Konrad

   Have you considered running your ducts for DC in the concrete.  You could lay out all the pipes and conduit for your electrical needs before you pour your floor and then lay the concrete over top.  Another option is to either put sleepers over your concrete floor and run the ducts in the space between your concrete and wood floor.  Or Perhaps you could dig a crawl space and build a wood floor aover that.  The big advantage would be that you would have a wood floor to stand on on the ground floor as well which will haelp your joints.

   Derek

1. 
   konrad | Mar 24, 2004 09:18pm | #10

   Hi Derek,

   Thanks for your input. The only drawback to radiant floor heating (that I know of) is you do not want to cover it in any way. Putting a wooden sub-floor on top significantly reduces the amount of heat that gets into the room. I have a good friend that lives north of me with a radiant shop floor. She looked into covering it but after crunching some numbers and talking to people, opted to keep it bare (except for a coat of rubberized paint). The insulating factor of the sub-floor was too much. That was my reasoning behind dividing the floors into machine room and bench/handtool room.

   The second storey will have a "chisel friendly" floor though:)

   Take care, Konrad

1. 
   ian | Mar 25, 2004 02:21pm | #12

   I am thinking about build a fully detached 2 storey building. The main floor would be the machine room, the second is the bench/hand work room. I make small items, so having the 2 floors will not be an issue (as far as getting them up and down).

   Konrad

   You may want to rethink the 2 storey layout.  The only 2 level shop layouts I've seen devote one level to storage (and possibly office space) and concentrate the work on the other level.  Whilst carrying small items up and down the stairs may not seem to be an issue, if I may I suggest you think really seriousy about the time penalities involved in walking up and down the stairs many times every day. 

   Looking at my own work habits, the power tools are arranged so that it is only a few steps from the bench to the bandsaw, or the drill press, or the table saw.  I rarely can do all the machining before I move onto the hand tool tasks. 

   As others have said, lots of natural light !

   Ian

1. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:10pm | #28

   Hi Ian,

   Thanks for the input - it has been a frequent comment. I agree that ideally it would all be on one floor - I just do not have the yard space to do it. The second story will also accommodate any teaching I do as well - and in that regard may be a good solution to keep the potential noise away. I tend to do all my machine work in one go and then move to the hand work. In my current shop - they are at opposite ends - or as opposite as 24" can be! I will move the scale drawings around some more to see if I can get it all on one floor though.

   Take care, Konrad

6. 
   triplenet | Mar 26, 2004 09:03pm | #13

   Konrad,

   I built a 36X72 shop 3 yrs ago in NW Arkansas.  I also built a shop in Nebraska which is generally colder, but sunnier than Ontario.  Our son lives in Ottawa and all my relatives live in southern Ontario. With your weather in mind, I'll give you my opinions.

   My shop is a lot larger than what you are building, but ideas would still work. Mine is a 2 storey gambrel (barn) roof which leaves clear span on 2nd floor.  I have a store room and 1 apt. on 2nd floor.  Check with your zoning people and determine what 18' height means.  My experience is that height equals walls plus 1/2 the roof height, which if you do a gambrel may alow you extra height.  My roof comes to the floor plate, ground to peak is 35'.  My second floor ceiling is "lowered" to 12'.  First floor ceiling is 10', this allows ease to move a 4X8 panel on a diagonal. I had 8' ceiling in Neb and  consider 8' a bare minimum.  I used 12" manufactured floor joists to span 36' with 8X12 oak beams bearing on 8X8 oak columns on 12' centers.  If possible, I would not have posts, but my load and span would not allow it.

   Walls are stick framed 2X6 on 16" centers with rough sawn plywood with 1X2 cedar battens. I would price Hardi panels if I were to rebuild.

   I priced a Morton building, but costs really skyrocket if you don't want it to look like a machine shed. There are 3 insulated garage doors on one end and and 1 garage door and walk in door on opposite (shop) end.  I used 4 small fixed sash windows and wish I had larger and more windows.  I chose stick framing as there is a lot of people who can do that.

   Insulation is blown in cellulose, which I highly recommend.  I have also used it on my home.  It fills all voids and really cuts down on noise transmission and is a great insulator.  We also caulked plate and floor joints.  Interior is drywalled and floor is epoxy paint for easy clean up. 

   My heating and cooling is modular 2 ton heat pump, which wouldn't work in your climate.  I leave it at 50 degrees all winter which may require as much as a 40-50 degree rise at night.  The building is very tight and heating costs are reasonable.  I looked into a wood burner and may still do it, but my high roof peak requires a lot of expensive pipe.

   My shop in Neb was not well insulated (fiberglass) so I didn't heat it until I needed to use it.  That does not work as all the structure and contents are cold and must be heated which takes a very long time (takes any sponanaiety out of shop use).

   Dust collection is overhead with 6" trunk line running next to oak beams.  Branches are 4" in joist space and drop at post and walls. Ducts are HVAC snap pipe with PVC Y's.  I have a Torret (sp?) collector  inside because it would suck all the conditioned air out of the space in a few minutes.

   I would question the idea of a second floor shop.  I did that in Neb and it became a pain to move material, tools up and down the steps.

   I put a bathroom under the stairs to the second floor.  All water is valved so that the building can be drained and the bathroom heated with only a small heater if need be.  I do have a free standing commercial type SS sink which is a must.

   Run a lot of plugs both 110 and 220.

   Hope this helps.

   Bob

1. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:22pm | #29

   Hi Bob,

   Great advise - thanks.

   I did check about what 18' means - exactly that, 18'. Now, they did say I could propose something different and they were open to discussing it - which I interpret as go for it (within reason of course). I will certainly have a 9' main floor height now. I will look into the blown in cellulose as well. I have added many of your comments to my "list" of things to look into - the bathroom and sink being two of them.

   Thanks again, Konrad

7. 
   Miami | Mar 27, 2004 05:37am | #14

   Konrad,

   I think the separate 'room' for the DC is worthwhile, radiant floor heating sounds right, assuming you don't have to take that 'extra' hot water too far.  Northern light is supposed to be choicest, but that far north I don't know if it'd be enough light.  Consider skylights or at least some Solatubes, natural light is not just by far the best, it's SO cheap, once you get it indoors.

   Here's a photo tour of an awfully nice shop for inspiration, your task sounds like great fun.

   http://www.foursisterswoodworking.com/4s_tour.html

   Clay

1. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:25pm | #30

   Hi Clay,

   Thanks for the link. I have that shop in my file from when it was in FWW a while back. What an amazing space that it!

   Many others have commented on the separate DC room - I am convinced it is the right thing to do.

   Take care, Konrad

8. 
   jasonmcbain | Mar 27, 2004 04:29pm | #15

   if the only reason that you dojnt want a wood floor is because you loose to much heat between the concrete and the wood floor then you should look into radiant subloor panels. it is not neccisary to pour concrete to have radiant heat

   here is a good site to look at

   http://www.warmboard.com/

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/27/2004 9:34 am ET by jasonmcbain

1. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:27pm | #31

   Wow - now that is cool! I had not heard of it before. I will dig deeper - thanks for the link.

   Konrad

9. 
   GHR | Mar 29, 2004 03:22am | #17

   I don't know much about heating, lighting and such but I do have a 2 story shop.

   The first floor is a 13x20 garage, and a 13x20 rough machining room. The machining room has a tablesaw, thickness sander, bandsaw, mitersaw, and circular saw. It also has 24' of 2' wide benches.

   The second floor has more benches and scroll saw, drill press, router tables, routers, and all of my hand tools. I build reasonable sized furniture - 24x34 tables, 24x60 sideboards and canoes and kayaks. (I should say the second floor has 4' wide stairs with a 4' exit door at the bottom, and a 5'x7' door to the outside.

   I finish in the upstairs. I find I don't need to control the dust.

1. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:40pm | #33

   My main floor will have a TS, jointer, bandsaw, thickness planer, DC, drill press, grinder (not for sharpening) spindle sander, disc sander. I think that is about all I can do on one floor. I love the wide staircase idea - and the second floor door - a great idea! I think I will follow suite.

   Thanks, Konrad

10. 
    migraine | Mar 30, 2004 06:47pm | #26

    I am in the process of building a house.  My garage/shop measures 26'wide X 74" long and is attached to the house.  I have 2) 10' wide roll up doors at one end and 10' wide roll up door about 1/2 way down the 74' long wall.  The length is divided into two sections.  One section is 20 long and has a wall height of 8' and this area will eventually be turn into a game room.  There are attic trusses above this section with head room of 80'.  My wife has already claimed the attic as hers.  No wood/dust is allowed in "her space".   The other section is 54' long and has a wall height of 10 1/2 feet.  This is where most of the woodworking is done.  In my last shop, I had 10' walls and They were just a little too low.  Maninly due to materials beight in the 10' range and lighting hanging down.  The last shop I build like this was a concrete slab with 2x4 walls, and a conventional framed roof.  The builing cost was around $20,000 - $25,000.  This one will run about $25,00-$30,000 and will be fully insulated, unless I run out of money.  My last shop was not drywalled, I used 1/2" OSB/plywood on the walls.  It makes  hanging stuff anywhere easy.  Just put a coat of white paint over it to reflect the light.  I would definately go with 2x6, especially if you plan on heating it 

    As to the height concerns, On a buiding 26' wide, 10 1/2' wall height, and a 6/12 roof pitch,  you building height is somewhere around 17'.

    All of the electrical will be surfaced mounted conduit and boxes.  This makes it alot easier to do rewiring at a later date.  Many of my machines are 3phase, so I have a 15h.p. rotary converter for that.  This also makes the need for an additional power disconnect and a seperate breaker panel.  If and when you run conduit, run 3/4" as the minimum.  Nothing worse than trying to pull wire in small conduit, or not having enough room to add an additional wire or two at a later date

    My last shop didn't have a bathroom and this one will.  Boy, did I learn that one the hard way. 8+ years of walking up to the house to shed that last cup of coffee. No matter how careful I was, I still tracked in sawdust to the house.

    My personal opinion is to build a single story shop over a two story.  I do realize that the foundation/roof have more square footage.  But, it goes up faster with almost no need for scaffolding, except at the gables.  I personally thing is is a wash of additional laber over more roof and foundation. A single story would probably not need to be engineered either, depending on the height of the walls..  Also, being a single story, it makes it easier to build it yourself, if that is your case. 

    There are alot of new lighting sources that run on very low wattage.  Look into these.  Initial upfront cost will be higher, but energy usage will be lower.  But try to stick with lighting that gives you the most "natural light".  This will help in staining/painting/matching colors.  Also,t does help with moods on those gloomy days that every one else has mentioned.

    Nothing better than going into the shop on a rainy day.  Turn of the coffee pot, crank up the sterio, and enter a whole 'nother world.

    I have always wanted to put in a "trough" for dust collection/wiring, but I have never seemed to keep my machines in on place for very long.  I am usually moving them around because of new/ more machine purchases, or a particle project I'm working on.

    I have tought about the radiant floor myself, and have upted to use another heat source, but I haven't decide which one at this time.  The reason for not going with radiant heat is that there is a long delay time in heating.  I don't want to heat the space when I'm not in it, and I don't want to need to turn it on 3-5 hours before I get into the shop..  Nor do I want to heat the shop after I have left for the day/night.  If I was in the shop everyday from 8:00 to 4:30, then that might be a different situation.  I will probaby go with a external combustion kerosene heater that a friend has told me about, or maybe a wood stove.

    The security of your shop is only as good as the ability of breaking down a door or window.  If they want in, they will get in.  I guess that is what insurance and alarm systems are for.  Unfortunitly I know this from first hand experience.  My younger brother got himself into trouble many years ago for burglary.  He said that it the doors were locked and no way to get in, they picked the lock.  No need for kicking down doors, braking windows.  These made too much noise.

    I would be concerned about the sound proofing that you mentioned.  If you have neighbors close by, then courtesy is required.  But, If you plan on using this shop for a business, then I would recommended you be very careful concerning the zoning requirements in you area.  Just because they allow you to have a shop, doesn't mean it's legal to operate a buisness out of it..  Some places allow a hobby shop, or a small "artstian" business. But other cities might consider you shop as an industrial business.  A friend of mine had this problem after being in a building for 4 years.  When a new neigbor moved in, they complained.  The city shut him down a made him moved.  The crazy part was that if he had been an auto or machine shop, he would have been allowd to stay.

1. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:01pm | #27

   Hi Everyone,

   This has been an overwhelming response - thanks to all! Sorry for ducking out for so long. I will attempt to go through all the responses as time permits.

   Thanks again,

   Konrad

2. 
   konrad | Mar 30, 2004 07:52pm | #35

   Yet another amazing response - thanks!

   Great advise on the wiring side - surface mounting, 3/4" conduit. Your coffee comment did it for me too - bathroom is a must:)

   What is your "whole ’nother world" music? I have it going all the time too and could not survive without it. This could be a whole new thread actually!

   My shop will be used all day every day, and given the much smaller size, I hope the heating delay is not an issue. Good heads up though - thanks.

   I have looked into the zoning already. I figured there was too much at risk (expense and effort) to proceed without everything being above board. They have classified me as an "artisan" and therefor do not need any re-zoning or variances because it falls outside of the manufacturing by-laws. My uncle is a property lawyer and looked into it for me as well, and said I was good to go based on what the zoning dept. said. Phew!

   Take care, Konrad

1. 
   migraine | Mar 31, 2004 05:04am | #38

   "What is your "whole ’nother world" music? I have it going all the time too and could not survive without it. This could be a whole new thread actually!"

   Everything from my high school years, early eighties, blues, accostical, Southern Rock, Pink Floyd(including the REALLY old stuff), Sting, Genisis& Phil Collins,  Jethro Tull, Styx, Santana, Alan Parsons, ELO,Fleetwood Mace, Grace Slick,Pat Benetar etc.

1. 
   konrad | Mar 31, 2004 04:35pm | #39

   I guess we are about the same age then - mid to late 30's. My selection is quite similar with a few of the newer bands thrown in for those "energetic" moments. My play list includes Led Zepplin, Jimi Hendrix, The Cult, The Cure, (old) U2, Rage against the machine, Janes Addiction, Tool (A Perfect Circle), and even a little nine inch nails from time to time. I had better leave some room for in-wall speakers too!

   Cheers, Konrad

11. 
    DennisS | Mar 31, 2004 05:58pm | #42

    Knorad -

    I'm a little late in getting involved here but if you're still in the decision making process here are a few ideas I incorporated into my shop recently built -

    In floor radiant heat - yes! I don't have it operational yet due to budget constraints but the tubing was cast in the floor. The system we put in the house is wonderful and I anticipate the shop (detached with its own boiler [water heater] system should be as good. A water heater is cheaper to install than a sophisticated boiler but you will, none the less, require some degree of control system and manifold arrangement to manage the zoning of the system. There's a limit to the length of any single loop of the heating tubing. Install the tubing yourself to save a few bux if need be.

    I have a concrete floor. I'm in the northern part of Puget Sound (WA state) so my climate issues aren't as great as yours. Even so I had the contractor over excavate the floor slab area to accomodate a 6" lift of pea gravel (drainage) and a 2" layer of polyiso rigid foam insulation under the slab. The slab is 6" with 10/10 6x6 welded wire mesh. I would have prefered #4 bar at 12" but the welded wire mesh was less expensive to buy and install. It's mainly for crack control but be sure to tie your heating tubing securely to the reinforcing if it's placed on top of same (recommended by my heating contractor) - it's full of air and will float to the top if you don't.

    I did a careful layout of my machinery and had power outlets located in the floor for things like the table saw and band saw so I wouldn't have wires dangling from the ceiling or stretched across the floor. Figure on a pedestal arrangement rather than floor boxes which would get full of dust and dirt. These were piped in conduit to the location(s) I specified and have been well worth the cost and effort.

    I had the concrete contractor cast in a utility trench across the floor to contain the dust collection ductwork branch that runs from one side of the shop where the cyclone is located (on the outside wall) to pick up the table saw and jointer on the opposite wall. Didn't bother to run the electrical in this trench since the island equipment is stationary. The floor pedestals work much better. The cover for the duct trench rests on 1 1/2" recesses (call them a rabbet) in the edge of the concrete. The cover is simply two layers of 3/4" plywood screwed together in 4' lengths. The pieces are offset lengthwise to create small half-lapped end conditions so there's minimal deflection at the joints in the cover.

    I don't have *near* enough lighting in my shop I see now. I have a 10' ceiling (to the bottom chord of the trusses) and with the increased ceiling ht (from the 8' ceiling I had in the old shop) the amount of lighting necessary to provide ample illumination is considerable. The higher the ceiling the more fixtures you need. I need to adress that soon. Anything over 10 or 12' I'd suggest researcing what are called low bay warehouse lighting fixtures.

    My roof system is a double pitch roof with clerestory lighting along the entire length of the shop. Don't have the glazing in yet more budget issues) but even with the building wrap providing a modicum of weather protection, the amount of filtered lighting that enters suggests that this will be a great enhancement to the lighting situation at least during daylight hours.

    Designing an building a new shop is almost (almost) as much fun as working in it when it's finished! Good luck with your project.

    ...........

    From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.

    Dennis

1. 
   mitch | Mar 31, 2004 09:20pm | #43

   if at all possible, get separate 200amp service for your shop.  you can't have too many clamps or too much power.  heck, while you're at it, see if 3-phase is available in your area!

   also depending on what sort of hot water demand you'll have in the shop, i'd recommend just running a cold line and getting a little 6-10 gallon electric water heater.  i have a 6 gal unit that's not much bigger than a five gal bucket.  i'm going to use it when my shop project gets to that stage (IF i can figure out a suitable ejector toilet/dwv system so i don't have to put in a new septic tank and field just to have a slop sink and a wc in my shop)

   stay in touch- i'm just starting the process of tricking out my 24 x 36 space!

   m