Air cleaner vs. dust collector?
freestate1
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Hi all,
I am looking for a solution to excessive dust in my small basement shop area. If money were no object, I’d buy both a dust collector (Delta AP400) and an air cleaner (Delta AP200). But, only one is in the budget. My primary concern is not chips, but airborn dust that coats everything, plays havoc with the smoke detector, and works its way into the living areas (much to the annoyance of the DW).
So, would I be better off with an air cleaner rather than a dust collector?
Thanks for your insights.
Edited 12/1/2005 10:56 pm by freestate1
Replies
Some tools (my planer, for example) nearly can't be operated without a DC. With the DC in place, I get relatively little dust in the air with my TS, miter saw, and even router. Other tools, like the jointer, don't produce much airborne dust at all.
So I bought a DC first, and think it's the way to go. But the equation could change for you.
If you do a lot of sanding, a DC might not help as much as you'd like. If you work a lot of MDF, that'll spit out a lot more dust, too. In both of those cases, though, you have to realize that no air cleaner cleans your air instantly. You'll still have the stuff float about some. If you're attached to the house, it'll get out of your shop. But the air cleaner does make a HUGE difference.
The other thing that might alter things is if you have a powerful shop vac. If so, you may well be able to press it into service to make not having a proper DC tolerable, and put your first chunk of change into the air cleaner. Add the DC later, when you save up for the next purchase. Test this theory by hooking up your shop vac to your most demanding tool (for me it's the planer) -- if it operates OK, maybe an air cleaner is a good first choice for you.
If money is an issue, check out the Harbor Freight DC. It's 2HP, double bagger and since I got mine, I'm not choking on dust, cleanup became sweeping larger chunks from the floor instead of extensive cleaning after every time in the garage and I almost never have dust accumulating on flat surfaces. If I do, it means I haven't moved those things in months. It usually goes on sale for $169. If you know someone there, it can be less. The impeller is metal and I have sucked up some chunks of wood, but the inlet has a metal cross for blocking anything that would harm the impeller. Even when cutting MDF and particle board, the dust is not very bad. I use the grey flexible plastic ducting because I need to attach it to the machine being used. It's a garage, after all.
An air cleaner would need to move too much air through it to be practical and the added turbulance would cause more problems than it would eliminate. The DC gets rid of the majority of dust, an air cleaner is only for the fine airborne stuff. I have seen air cleaners for $99, but if you look around, you may be able to find a used furnace blower that you could add ducting to with a deep paper furnace air filter. It should do the job and you could turn it on/off with a regular switch. They don't make a lot of noise, either.
If you have a lot of fine dust getting into the living space, have you weaterstripped the door to that area? Negative air pressure in the shop would keep dust out of the living space, too. All this takes is installing a vent fan to the outside, then you'll be drawing air from the rest of the house through the shop. Be careful if you have a gas water heater unless it's direct vented.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 12/2/2005 8:35 am by highfigh
I second the HF dc. I have only had it a short time so I dont know how well it will hold up but it does a pretty good job now. Also HF stores will match the website price which is often lower than the store price. In the case of the DC I got it for $159 instead of the advertised sale price of $169. You just need to print out the webpage and bring it into the store. HF has two websites harborfreight.com and harborfreightusa.com. The first is the web front the second the retail locations page. They can and do have different sales items - also the usa one will have a 20% OFF one item coupon which can be used once per week. in the stores Yes I was able to use it on the $159 DC - for an even lower price.
I have the exact same problem (basement shop) and I ordered the Jet AFS 500 air cleaner from Amazon. It shows up today, so I will test it this weekend and let you know how it works.
Randy.
I think you need both plus a good shop vac. You are always better to collect as much at the source as possible. This is where the vac and dust collector come in. I use the vac on small tools like the router and sanders, the dust collector on larger tools like the table saw, jointer, etc. The ambient air cleaner gets the fine floating dust that escapes the other collectors. You may want to weatherstrip the basement door and keep the doors closed to the upstairs rooms. With dust collection, you get better results with the better equipment. I have both a Penn State and a JDS ambient and there is no comparison, the JDS is worth the additional cost. You often have to be a little creative with dust collection, sealing up around the top of the table saw or rigging adaptors for tools, but the results are worth it.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
You really do need both, but the DC first. One of "our guys" (can't remember who) has posted plans for building your own air filter, maybe he'll speak up. You can get the blower from furnace companies -- when they replace heaters, the old blowers are available cheap or free.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks for the responses!
So, if I start with a DC... I have heard of getting a box fan, taping a furnace filter to it, and voila, a poor man's air cleaner. Anybody have experience with this? I know it wouldn't be as efficient as the real thing, but does it provide any value at all? The idea appeals to the mad scientist inside me who likes to kludge things together from misc. parts lying around the shop. <G>
Also, anybody have experience with the Delta AP300 DC? It's 3/4 hp and 550 cfm. I know the AP400 is only a few dollars more, but the smaller size of the AP300 is appealing. It has, however, received decidedly mixed reviews on Amazon. I don't know if those who were dissatisfied were just heavy duty users who expected too much from an entry-level DC, or if it really is a poorly designed tool.
The dust collector should always be first. Collecting dust before it gets into the air is easier than trying to catch it afterward.
As to taping a couple of 20x20 filters to a fan, it will work as well the self contained uints. After all, both catch the dust in filter. Makes no differenc. It is just as efficient and will move as much air.
Keep in mind that air filters only begin the clear the air after the dust producer has be shut off. It has little affect when dust is being produced.Howie.........
Ah! I was right, it's Dan Kornfield (a.k.a. Jackie Chan), here's the link:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=11626.1
I wouldn't mess around with any DC less than 1HP (and much preferably 1.5). Don't forget to check out Penn State's models. Try to find out what size impeller the little ones you're considering have. I doubt anything under 10" is of much general use, but whadaIknow?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If the furnace is also in your basement, you risk way more damage than the cost of both units than without. I don't know how you can operate a planer or jointer without a dust collector, and I would never think about working in my shop without my air cleaner on. After you've been doing this a while, your respiratory system will not like you very much if you don't use an air cleaner.
Jeff
My workshop is in the basement and the furnace is on the next level up. I duct taped all the hot and cold air duct joints in the basement, installed a fan in the window to create a negative pressure and voila, I think it eliminates 99 % of the dust going into the living quarters - - however, I would like to get a dust collector to save using the shop vacuum all the time.
I have a basement shop which is also shared with laundry, etc. My concern was airborne dust settling on everything-- not so much the larger chips.
I know that one weekend doesn't tell the tale, but I set up an air cleaner on Friday night, then worked all weekend in the shop. There was a significant improvement in the air quality, and there was a fraction of the amount of dust settling on everything in the basement.
For me, the air cleaner is not for health reasons (I use a respirator when necessary) it is for cleanliness of the basement. At this point, it seems like it will be a big improvement.
Contrary to most opinions in this post, I am not sure that the addition of a dust collector would make much of a difference.
Randy.
Randy.
Assuming the DC will remove even 60% of the dust from getting into the air, it will definitely make a difference. It's just up to you to decide if it's worth spending the money. Whatever dust you have to deal with as a removal issue, it'll be a lot easier to get rid of with DC bags. Your choice.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I hate to tell you but I have a DC, an air cleaner, and a shop vac and I still have dust. It shows up when I put a finish , like polyurethane, on something and I find the little bits of dust. That said, I probably could be more diligent in turning on the air cleaner and reduce the dust. IMHO, the DC is definitely the place to start; if you don't get the big stuff out of the air, forget the rest.
A good dust collector with a small micron filter like Oneida and Penn State sell will clean a lot of dust out of the air. Maybe not quite as good as an air cleaner, but then an air cleaner definately does nothing for wood chips and shavings.
With my Oneida the only time I have a significant dust problem is when sanding and if I'ld just build a downdraft table to hook up to my DC I'ld solve that problem too.
On the other hand the DC's with bags don't do near as good of a job. I wouldn't waste my time or money with one of those.
My two cents, buy a two stage dust collector with a small micron, pleated filter.
I've got a DC with bags (Delta 50-850), and I can't say it stacks up to your Oneida, but I can sure testify that it does an excellent job, and that's with a 5-micron bag. The 50-760 has a 1-micron bag, at only about $20 more than mine.
If someone's in a position to buy only a cheap one like mine, they're still way better off than without one, though if they had Oneida-class $$ I wouldn't discourage 'em from buying it!
I have to agree fully, a bagged DC is much better than none at all. I've seen home made ones that used large plastic trash cans and flexible sewer pipe for the hose. They work too.With the newer smaller micron bags you can get good dust capture. The one down side is that the surface area of the bags is usually very minimal for what the system needs to operate at peak efficiency. Normally after a short time the bags become partially clogged and air flow decreases. Of course pleated filters clog too but they typically have much more total surface area so it takes a little longer and the net decrease in air flow isn't as great for the system.
Well, I bought the Delta AP-400 off of Amazon for about $150, and it really sucks (in a good way!). It moves waaaaay more air than my shop vac, and I don't miss the ear-splitting whine of the shop vac either. The DC eliminated virtually all the airborne dust generated by my stationary belt sander even though I don't have an efficient ducting setup yet. It is a fairly large device for a small shop, but I think this will go into the category of "Tools I wish I'd bought years ago". My next step is to get a box fan and furnace filter for the little dust that does get airborne (have you ever tried to find a cheap box fan in the middle of December?).
Congrats on your new DC, great to hear that it's working well for you. I just want to emphasize one little thing: It's the dust you don't see (too small) that hurts you the most in the long run. Keep workin' on that dust control, and don't toss your respirator!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Wally World, as much as they're hated, has them.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Freestate!
The fine dust should be your main concern. There is lots of documentation on the health hazards of fine dust that migrates through out the home and puts your family at risk. Also schools of thought suggest if you use a DC it can generate more fine airborne particles than with out.
I would suggest a good DC with low micron filtering and an air filter be on your short list of purchaces in that order.
Doesn't hurt to use a dust mask too when working in the area.
TJH
"Also schools of thought suggest if you use a DC it can generate more fine airborne particles than with out. " Are you sure? I've never, ever heard that argument, though there is a very vocal contingent that argues an air filter causes more problems than it solves.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The argument goes like this: without a DC or air cleaner, the airborne dust you create soon falls to the floor or other horizontal surface and remains there until you sweep it up. If you wear a dust mask during dust generation, your exposure is limited to the time it takes for the dust to fall.If you instead use a DC with poor filtration, all of the fine dust that you create is sucked into the DC and goes right through the filters and becomes airborne. An air cleaner with poor filtration, will continually circulate this fine dust through the shop. Almost all DC and air filters have poor filtration. The companies are not regulated, and there is little or no independent testing.The only sure way to control fine dust is to collect all of it at the source and use filters that have been rated by a certified lab.Sorry but good dust collection can't be done on the cheap, unless you built it yourself.Todd
Antzy, with all due respect, your first post should have been more precise in it's statement. There you said "...suggest if you use a DC it can generate more fine airborne particles than with out. "
When you clarified it in response to my question you stated [emphasis added]: "If you instead use a DC with poor filtration...."
further on, BTW:"Sorry but good dust collection can't be done on the cheap, unless you built it yourself." I've never voiced any encouragement for doing dust collection on the cheap (except to build their own, using Dan Kornfield's plans here at Knots for an air filter). In my own personal situation, I held out until I found quality AF and DC that I could afford to buy, both new-in-box at half or less of the retail price.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forestgirl,The following quote:"...suggest if you use a DC it can generate more fine airborne particles than with out. ",was stated by THJ in message 7223.22 above, not me. My post was intended to clarify/support the argument, as I tend to agree with it.Most DC and air cleaners that target consumers have poor filtration and/or don't move enough air. Poor filtration just spews the fine dust all over the shop, making the problem worse that if you had no DC or cleaner at all. Inadequate air movement simply does not collect enough dust to begin with, but probably isn't worse than having no DC or cleaner, as long as it has good filtration."on the cheap" was a general statement concerning the nature of this discussion, and not directed at you or your comments. Sorry for the misunderstanding.Todd
"My bad" as that obnoxious saying goes -- I didn't track the various posts the way I should have. Here you were, trying to clarify someone else's statement, and you got yourself attributed with things you didn't say! Sheesh, sorry.
To move on, though, (a) interesting Tyler hasn't come back and continued the conversation. (b) we could all go broke trying to get the best of the best with all of this stuff. I have a JDS air filter and a Jet canister collector (and a dust mask and a respirator). Using the DC and the AF definitely is better than nothing. I can tell because my sinuses let me know! No fancy scientific equipment needed.
That being said, I resisted buying a cheap DC for over a year because it seemed it would be money wasted.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
May I add a related question to what has already been discussed. I do this because I don't know how to post one from scratch yet. I am changing the house from a wood burner to geothermal. I will be taking out an air handler that I think would work well in the shop that I am building. It is three speed and at low speed I is way too noisy for a house setting. Too much air for the size of ducts. It has a one inch filter like you would use in a furnace. Now for my question. Is that filter enough in a workshop? Do I need a series of course to fine filters? What do the commercial ones use?
To answer your question, you need to know how much air movement you will get and the quality of the filtration.A quick search reveals that Delta makes an air cleaner that removes 99% of particles 1 micron and larger. Jet claims 85% and JDS only claims 80%. I would only assume this to be true if they certify these ratings based on independent testing, which they probably don't.Personally, I would not be satisfied unless at least 99% of particles 0.5 microns or smaller are collected. People with allergies may need better filtration.The filters I will be using on my DC collect 99.99% of particles 0.5 microns and larger.Almost everything you need to know about dust collection is at:http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfmGood luck,Todd
Tinkerer, the blower (I'm assuming it's a squirrel-cage type blower?) can be used for several different workshop applications, so don't throw it away until you're sure you don't want it! The filter is a changeable thing -- you can pick a filter that meets the specifications you want.
I just spent quite awhile trying to find Dan Kornfield's post that has his shop-built air scrubber in it, with no luck! I know I can find it, but simply don't have time until this afternoon, so keep your eye out for another post from me, I'll get it for you. Another possibility would be a downdraft sanding table, depending on just how large that blower might be (too big? Hmmmm). Don't lose the 3-way switch, they aren't that easy to replace (e.g., you can't get them at the borg stores).
Later! I promise.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jeeeez Louise, didn't think I was ever going to find it. Click here for Dan Kornfeld's post on building an air scrubber (note that you have to click on View Full Message at the bottom when you get there). Dan's user name is JackieChan and here is his web site.
This is now bookmarked 6 ways to Sunday! If you have any questions, I'm pretty sure Dan would welcome them. He has been very helpful to me in the past.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Gee, FG, I wouldn't have expected you to go to all that time to just get me some information. Any way - Thanks a lot. Now see if I can digest it.
Drives me nuts when I can't find something that useful. I'm rabid about keeping bookmarks, but somehow I missed that one, then I mispelled Dan's last name during the search. Not to worry though, I'm sure it'll come in handy for others too.
Have fun!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have a basement shop. And I understand that $$ can be hard to find. But I think you MUST have a DC and a air cleaner. If you won't find a way to get it for your health, then get it to keep dust out of the rest of your home. Others living in your home will be happier. I have DC and another on order and a Jet air cleaner. The only dust that migrates to the rest of my home (including the other part of the basement) is what I carry out on my clothes ect.
I run the air cleaner anytime I'm making dust, and for 2 hrs after I leave the shop.
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