Replies

1. 
   hitai | Jan 04, 2006 10:43am | #1

   I run a sawmill here in Hawaii ( among other things)  Koa is pretty forgiving when air drying.  it is not prone to sticker stain if the stickers are dry. ( always use dry stickers)  I've never used oak.If you are really worried you can move them every couple weeks till the surface moisture is gone, but it's really not a problem.  Koa dries very nicely  and the working properties of air dried are vastly superior to KD.  this should come down to below 20% by summer if you have any air moving at all and the dryer, hotter summer weather will be ideal.  I can air dry wood to 10% down on the hot dry flats here and that gives me wood that i can make  and ship furniture all over.

   You did not need to wax the edges.    great score on the log!!!! I hope you get to do it proud!

    

    

   Aloha  Tai

1. 
   DanQ | Jan 04, 2006 07:24pm | #2

   Thanks for the reply. Considering the availability of 4" thick koa chucks I assumed that Koa was an "air dry friendly wood." The stickers I have came with the log and they are at the same moisture level as the slabs. I doubt the stickers were ever really dry. I have never seen koa with sticker stain so I also assumed that was not a significant problem.

   I think I will go to the trouble of restacking with dry white oak stickers. Not fun since some of the slabs are 48" wide and weigh in at 300 plus pounds. As you no doubt know - there is nothing else like Koa.

   Thanks, DanQ

2. 
   mikegagne | Jan 05, 2006 10:36am | #3

   Dan, undry stickers are a no no. Use treated stickers (dry with anchor seal or other sealant painted on) and you will have no problem. That interplay of acids and alkalines on various woods can create issues where none existed before. Even though koa and oak contain the same letters does not mean they are compatible. Dry dry dry the stickers as you have about 4 years of drying time with your 4 inch slabs. aloha, mike

1. 
   DanQ | Jan 05, 2006 06:22pm | #4

   Thanks for the second reply. First the slabs are heavy 8/4 so the drying time should be 2 years. Clearly the existing Koa stickers are wet so I will replace them with something. I have no way of drying the existing koa stickers, so maybe I should coat the white oak I have with something. Won't anchor seal or something simular trap moisture between the Koa and the sticker? I can set the white oak stickers up to be dipped in something and dry the coating before I use them. Do you recommend anchor seal? As an alternate I could use shelac or polyurathane. Maybe I should use 1" plastic pipe instead? If I start with dry stickers, wouldn't dry koa stickers absorb the moisture from the slabs and be at the same moisture level as the slabs in very short order? The guys in Pennsylvania use poplar stickers on their maple because it resists the mold that produces sticker stain. I can get some cheap dry poplar.

1. 
   TTalma | Jan 05, 2006 09:12pm | #5

   I think you would be okay with the koa stickers. But better safe than sorry. You could probably dry the stickers in your oven in about a days time. You might have to cut them in half to fit.

   But with the value of Koa I would buy some 1" pvc pipe cut it into 1" lengths and stack these on end. This would allow alot of air flow and and be strong enough to with stand the weight.

   Not the cheapest solution but cheaper than planing away 1/4" of wood off both sides.

   Pvc on it's side is not strong enough. Trust me I know, and it won't collapse until you put on the last piece.

   But the pvc on it's edge is plenty strong.

   I've never dryed Koa but from my experiance with other woods, if your going to dry the wood in your garage without a good air flow (ie wind) expect 8/4 to take about 3 years.

1. 
   DanQ | Jan 06, 2006 03:07am | #6

   The PVC on edge sounds like a good idea. While my garage isn't open, it isn't enclosed either. No drywall, vented attic and I open the doors every morning. When the Koa gets closer to dry I can leave the doors open all the time and then there will be tons of air flow. Remember we have wind in Kansas. (Old saying - Nail a tow chain to a post - if it stands straight out the weather is going to be nice, if the end links start snapping off then it means bad weather is on the way.)

   Thanks a bunch - DanQ

    

1. 
   tinkerer2 | Jan 06, 2006 07:24am | #8

        End links start snapping off?  You must live pretty close to the Nebraska border.

2. 
   mikegagne | Jan 06, 2006 09:31am | #9

   Dan, dry anything is preferable to wet or plastic pipe. There is a coating for the dry stickers that IS recommended....I just cant remember what it is. Dry poplar sounds like a good choice though. aloha, mike

1. 
   DanQ | Jan 06, 2006 08:04pm | #10

   I have the white oak stickers all cut and now I am working with the paint store guy to devise a coating that will isolate the white oak from the Koa. Right now he has come up with a non-oil based deck sealer which completely drys and seals the oak stickers. This sounds like my best bet. I still think I will "finger Joint" the stickers to about 50% before coating then to minimize the contact area and minimize any trapped moisture between the 5/4 X 5/4 stickers and the Koa.

   By the way the log cost me more than my last car. total of about 900 board feet. It is not 100% curly, but it is at least 66% curly, some of it is real intense. Yes, I am excited to get it dry and eventually build some nice furniture out of it. If it takes 3 years to dry - it takes 3 years - it will take me most of the rest of my life to use it up making furniture.

1. 
   user-83659 | Jan 07, 2006 01:22am | #11

   I'm not in the commercial business of drying lumber, but I have dried quite a bit for myself and have read alot about it.  I have never heard of (or used) any coating on the stickers.  Maybe there would be some advantage, but I really don't see any.  and since Koa does not usually get much sticker stain, whay take the chance of using something that may inadvertantly effect the Koa.  Unless there is some documented advantage and examples of coating the sticker, I would not personally take the chance with all that gold (Koa).  Just my thoughts.  that one Guy from Hawaii who has experience with Koa that left a post earlier may have something to add.  Maybe email him.  Am I wrong minded in this way of thinking.

    

   Good Luck

   Peter

2. 
   DanQ | Jan 07, 2006 01:45am | #12

   Peter,

   Thanks for your input. The problem is I have "wet" koa stickers between the slabs right now. (The stickers are at the same moisture content as the slabs.) The slabs are at about 28% moisture content. I want to restack the pile of 2" slabs with dry stickers and I have white oak available. There is concern that the acidic nature of white oak might react with the Koa and cause a sticker stain. (I have some dry Koa boards but at the price of Koa I am not going to slice it up for stickers.)

   No one seems to know if the white oak will react with the Koa, or if any other wood species is safe with Koa. (Such as poplar which is cheap here.) White Oak is recommended as a sticker material in some publications because it does not support the molds which cause sticker stain, but they do not address if it will effect Koa.

   The "safe" options are now, unstack the pile and dry the koa stickers in the oven. This could be a major effort as I am looking at 80 stickers 5/4 square and about 48" long.   OR   coated white oak.  The coating I have lined up will work like a very thin gasket between the white oak and the Koa and is completely inert once it is dry. By "finger jointing" the white oak stickers the amount of trapped moisture under the stickers should be minimal and should escape easily in the natural drying process.

   I appreciate everyone's input but does anyone really know what is the best thing to do? Stacking and unstacking the pile is a substaintial amount of work. Some slabs are over 300 lbs. I really do not want to unstack and restack to move stickers ever two months or so.

   Would stickers with Melime (Thin Formica) on both sides work better?

   Final answer anyone?

    

    

    

3. 
   Michael | Jan 07, 2006 02:15am | #13

   You don't want to use melamine.  It'll trap the moisture below the stickers for sure.

   I've seen the results on domestic hardwoods, not sure if Koa would react similarly but I wouldn't chance it.

   If you're really concerned, Lee Valley or Woodcraft (I can't remember which) carries special sticker stock that appears to provide the best of both worlds.  however, it isn't cheap.

   That sounds like some gorgeous wood, I assume you contacted a lumber seller?  Care to email me the name of that individual or company?

   Thanks!

   michael

4. 
   DanQ | Jan 07, 2006 02:49am | #14

   Michael,

   I will check those catalogs / websites. Thanks.

   I bought the log from Winkler in Hilo Hawaii. I was there on business and of course could not pass up the opportunity to shop first hand. As you no doubt know curly koa is extremely variable and at the prices it draws you have to see what you are getting.  My log is a medium to slightly darker than medium color koa. Nice striping but unfortunately no black lines like the really old stuff used to have. The curl varies from medium curly - about 3/4" apart to fine curl at 1/4".  I have a bunch of projects worked out conceptually so it will get used.

   Thanks for everyones help.

   DanQ

    

5. 
   hitai | Jan 07, 2006 09:28pm | #18

   Ya'll are spinning a little out of control here,,,,  coating stickers  is bad, silly even....

    A neutral wood is best, Poplar, luan, fir, hemlock, mahogany., alder...   any of these will do as long as they are DRY and the stack stays dry.   if the slabs are rough-sawn , things will be OK.  Keep the lowest one at least a foot off the floor.

   Don't worry so much,,, koa really is quite forgiving as far as drying goes and you are already on the gentlest path.  

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

6. 
   DanQ | Jan 08, 2006 09:43pm | #19

   OK, I am convinced, I will go buy some KD poplar scraps and rip them into 2" squares.

   last question - is it worth my trouble "box jointing" the stickers so they allow some space along the sticker instead of a continuous 2" solid strip?

   Thanks, DanQ

   PS. I will post in two to 3 years when it is dry and tell you how it all come out. I think I will put a few "experimental stickers" in places where it will not mater and see if anything shows up.

    

    

7. 
   hitai | Jan 09, 2006 05:34am | #20

   We don't use anything bigger than a 1 x 1 so that moisture can migrate out from under it easily.  If you want more space you can stack two of them to get your two inches.  i suppose box jointing would be a great idea,,,  but I;ve never done it... 2" is too wide without doing something like that

   if you  go with the 1x 2 configuration be sure to skew the placement of the stickers, ( not laid parallel) or the whole stack can roll ......  fwoooomp......    not a good sound....

   By all means use experimental stickers etc,,,  it will give you something to do and will help you see how this will all progress in your climate.   Also,, keep an eye on the top slab. if you see any cupping you just need to flip it over.

    

   Good luck!

    

8. 
   user-83659 | Jan 07, 2006 03:25am | #15

   You could call or email commercial mills in Hawaii or some of the reputable ones here like Hearne or Cook or Gilmore.  I have dealt with these and I believe they would be availible to speak to you directly.  Good Luck

    

   Peter

9. 
   mikegagne | Jan 07, 2006 06:55am | #17

   Ed Winkler has a very good reputation. Its still worth the trip to see what you are buying. aloha, mike

10. 
    mikegagne | Jan 07, 2006 06:53am | #16

    Dan, I can categorically say that any plastic will cause mold in damp wood-dont use any. Also, your stickers should be the same dimension as your wood. These two points are way more important than any coating-on-sticker issues. The coating I cant remember the name of is also used as a kiln liner. It is chemically inert and my memory does hold that it was used on the stickers principally to keep the stickers from overdrying from multiple cycles through the kiln. I used an Ebac kiln back then and the technology has changed considerably. I still have one very large 8/4 koa slab from a tree we harvested from the preserve that was blown down over Maui County's 36" water transmission line. We took the whole tree including the root ball and milled 18 eleven foot slabs upto 41 inches wide. I can appreciate what you have and applaud your not buying that new Bugatti with your money. aloha, mike

3. 
   user-83659 | Jan 06, 2006 04:03am | #7

   You have 48 inch wide Curly koa Boards.  Famtastic! With the possible exception of a forgotton stash of 200 year old cuban Mahogany, you have quite the pile of firewood there.   If I'm not mistaken,  I think I have dream'nt about your boards the other night.

   Peter

4. 
   Cheatah | Jan 09, 2006 06:35am | #21

   Dan:

   You clearly have no idea what how to dry this stuff. I suggest I come over to your place pick up the whole lot of koa and take it back to my shop to dry. In three years or so when it is dry I will try to get ahold of you to give it back.

   Just kidding-- well not really but.......boy am I envious. That is quite haul you made.

   I  really do not know much about drying. But I sure do love working with koa. Good luck and be sure to post pics in a few years after you made the first piece.

   Envious in Indy,

   Cheatah---

    

   Thank you,

   Cheatah

1. 
   DanQ | Jan 09, 2006 05:55pm | #22

   Thanks for all your input. I am drooling over working with this stuff, but trying not to drool on the wood. While you might be envious I should let you hear the grief I get from the wife about how could anyone spend that much on a log! And you have to wait 2 to 3 years to use it - what are you nuts. If you can afford a log I should get a new car. Well honey, you could have gotten a new car but I spent all our money on the log. I don't know what will last the longer - the lumber or her reminding me of what I spent on it. (It was still worth it.)

   I may steal a chuck from the pile before it is totally dry and make a platter with it on my Stubby lathe.

5. 
   gb93433 | Jan 24, 2006 07:46am | #23

   .75" x 1.5" stickers which are fully dried are the best. If the stickers are too wide it can cause sticker stain. The sticks should be placed one above the other and should be placed at the end of the boards and then every two feet. If the sticks are placed on the end it will alleviate problems with splits to the first sticker from the end.

1. 
   DanQ | Jan 27, 2006 07:28pm | #24

   The curly koa slabs are now completely restacked with 5/4 X 5/4 dry fir stickers which have been "box jointed" to reduce contact area and let some air under the stickers. Stickers are located about 1" from the ends and at about 30" spacing. More than adequate for 2" plus slabs. Some very minor end cracking has occurred in spite of being full waxed on the ends.

1. 
   gb93433 | Jan 27, 2006 08:53pm | #25

   I would put those stickers on the end. Having worked in a yard with dry kilns I noticed that the boards almost always split to the first sticker. That reduces the air movement on the ends. Be sure your pile is flat and each sticker is placed directly above the other or it will cause bending problems due to the weight above. Sounds like you have a good setup.