Replies

1. 
   RMillard | Jul 28, 2010 09:48am | #1

   I don't think so

   Pete,

   I used to use Bekol (spelling?) and it didn't do anything different than the stuff at Lowe's, other than cost me 3-4 times as much.

   I have had super blond shellac that formed lumps when stored as flakes, but after busting them apart and grinding into a powder, it dissolved over night. I store the shellac flakes and sometimes the dissolved shellac in the  refrigerator, but I thought shellac flakes have a long shelf life.

   Rob Millard

   http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

   http://www.rlmillard.typepad.com

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jul 28, 2010 10:15am | #2

   DNA does differ in it's composition.  Now that gasoline has been adulterated with ethanol, many of the readily available brands approach being more methanol  (wood alcohol)  than ethanol.  That will make the shellac dry more rapidly.   Some of the other denaturing ingredients may also affect drying time.  Bekhol contains isopropanol which evaporates more slowly than ethanol. 

   Anhydrous ethanol will remain that way for only a short time since alcohol absorbs water directly from the atmosphere.  I wouldn't pay a lot extra just for than.  I expect by the time shellac flakes would be dissolved the alcohol will have absorbed about as much water as ordinary DNA would ordinarily have. 

2. 
   GregoryPaolini | Jul 30, 2010 07:03am | #3

   disolve shellac

   Pete,

   I just use plain old denatured alcohol.  As stated previously, you may want to break up the flakes a bit, to make them disolve a little quicker.  I disolve my flakes in a mason jar, with a lid on it, And a lot of times I'll shake the bottle a bit when I pass by it through out the day.  Generally, with full flakes, I'm ready to finish the next day, but smaller flakes, or powders, shaken regularaly can sometime be disolved completely with in a few hours, if you're in a pinch. 

   Hope this helps,

1. 
   PeteMohr | Jul 30, 2010 07:34am | #4

   Just an update . . .

   I went to Woodcraft and took a look at Flexners Finishing book. He agrees that plane old DNA is fine. No need to spend extra for the fancy stuff. So I bought a new bag of flakes and they dissolved just fine. So the bottom line is my old bag of flakes flaked out. :-((

   thanks for the input - pete

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Aug 01, 2010 08:43am | #5

   When DNA contains substantial amounts methanol, it must dry quite a bit faster than DNA with ethanol.  The molecule is lighter and evaporation is faster.  I'd avoid those cheap brands.    I don't think speeding up evaporation  that is a good thing.  In fact lot's of people look for ways to slow the drying.  Bekhol for example adds ibuprofol alcohol to do that. 

   And, surely you don't mean "pure" ethanol, since that would mean paying the "sin tax" -- at least some denaturant must be added. Acceptable formulas are found in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 27, Part 21.

    I don't doubt that the denaturant differences and impurities exist among brands and  could be noticeable in how the shellac applies.  Some of the possible denaturing ingredients may impact the drying time.  Surely there are differencees in quality.    Still I wouldn't expect differences in the final finish since just about all the different ingredients remain volatile and just aren't in the final finish.  All should rub to the same levels of sheen.   

   I'm afraid the stereo equipment analogy may be correct.  Many of the "quality" enhancers, such as high end speaker wires and the like, are pure hype that can never be detected using controlled double blind testing, the only real way of proof.  It's mostly an " emperors clothes" phenomena.   Buy the best speakers you can afford--beyond that in most other gear the threshold for scientifically detectable differences is reached at pretty moderate levels.   

4. 
   SteveSchoene | Aug 01, 2010 06:14pm | #6

   I'd much prefer one of the other alcohols as the denaturant than any of the other alternative.  Both methyl and isopropyl alchohol make satisfactory shellac solvents though methyl dries faster and isopropyl dries slower.  Looking at the list of approved formulas for denaturing alcohol shows only pyradine base, bone oil (Dipple's [sic] Oil], benzene (cancer causing), toluene, or rubber hyddrocarbon solvent ?, that denature alcohol with only 1/2% addition, or b at least in theory.  (There may be special permissions available, I suspect.)    Interestingly enough, one formula for denatured alcohol amounts to 3 lb,. cut shellac, either white or orange (formula 45) 

   Note I'm not at all saying that the low water, high ethanol content  DNA is bad to use--I'm sure it works fine, but I'm also sure that a good quality DNA (Sunnyside has relatively high ethanol for example)  will also work quite well.  I'm a bit cynical about products from the BORG, especially where quality could be degraded invisibly. 

   I'm sorry you have succumbed to the hype over audio gadgets.  Unless proven by scientifically conducted double blind tests, where neither test administrator or listener know which gadget, such as a high price connector, or speaker wire, are used, you cannot be sure what you are hearing is real or not.  Mostly we hear placebo effects.  Speakers, on the other hand, are critical and improvements can be heard very high into the range of prices. 

1. 
   joelMO | Aug 01, 2010 07:26pm | #7

   DENATURANTS

   Steve if you look at the MSDS sheets of all the DNA on the market they contain dentaturants in addition to Methanol and iso-propal. The latter are really added adulterants not the offical denatureant.  But as I mentioned before test the various alcohols yourself and see what's best for you. I did and I was much surprised by the result.

   As for audio there is a lot of hype but art is subjective and how things sound is also subjective. I only have a low end audiofile system, I've had it for a long time, friends still occasionally remark how well it sounds. Me I'm kind of jaded. I've heard far far better systems wayoutside my budget.

5. 
   Quickstep | Aug 14, 2010 12:53pm | #8

   It's the shellac - I'm convinced blond behaves differently

   Shortly ago I had the same issue with flakes not dissolving. After several days all I had was rubbery flakes suspended in alcohol. I got new flakes and they dissolved almost instantly (using alcohol from the same can). The project I'm doing uses super blond in one area and ruby in another. Although I have no empirical evidence, I am now convinced that blond behaves differently than darker shellac. When spraying the blond, I'm getting solvent pop, but not with the Ruby. The Ruby seems to dry harder and sand more easily. Although the blond tries to touch quickly, it won't sand without making corns on the paper unless I let it dry for several days.  Back to the original discussion....... When I had the problem with older blond flakes not dissolving, I had no problems with the older darker shellacs.

6. 
   veej77 | Sep 16, 2010 02:19pm | #9

   Denatured alcohol bought at your local hardware shop will work fine. The problem with flakes not dissolving is because the shellac is past its shelf life. Dewaxed shellac has a shelf life of about 2-2.5 years from the time of manufacture.  If the shellac does not dissolve completely and leaves a goopy gelationous mass at the bottom of the jar, it is a sure sign of old shellac, which should never be used. If used, it will never dry completely!! Your shellac vendor should be able to tell you the manufacturing date of the shellac being sold.

   A few facts about shellac:

   1) The shelf life of dewaxed shellac flakes cannot be prolonged by refrigeration or any other method.

   2) If shellac is fresh, ordinary denatured alcohol will work as well as any other kind of alcohol.

   3) Shellac that is past its shelf life will never dry completely. Its resistance to water and moisture will decrease significantly. As a matter of fact most horror stories of shellac eminate from usage of old shellac.

   4) Dewaxed Super Blonde and Platina are the most refined forms of shellac and hence have a shorter life span of about 2 years. On the contrary, Garnet or Orange will last longer. However the resitivity to moisture or water for Super Blonde or Platina is much higher.

   5) Dewaxed shellac flakes will clump, called blocking, due to humidity. It is absolutely fine to break up the clumps and use it. What is most important is that all of it must dissolve.

   6) Always use dewaxed shellac. We have come a long way in technology to produce quality dewaxed shellac. Forget about using waxy varieties. The reason being that wax is not the finishers best friend when amalgamated with shellac. Waxy shellac is more prone to water damage due to high porosity.

   If you have any other questions, feel free to email me at [email protected]

   More informtion on shellac can be found at one of my website page: http://shellacfinishes.com/Contact_and_FAQ.html

   Regards,

   Vijay

1. 
   Jammersix | Sep 16, 2010 04:24pm | #10

   I'm with Vijay. Fresher is gooder.

   The freshest, by far (judged by how fast it dissolved) I've used was about thirty minutes for 2 lb. cut from Shellac.net. And I mean it dissolved. There was nothing left, it was all liquid.

   I'm sticking with them as a source.

   The least fresh that I've used came from Rockler, and was the "rubbery-mass-in-the-bottom-after-a-week" experience that has been noted above.

7. 
   joelm | Sep 20, 2010 01:04pm | #11

   The biggest problem we have seen with people having trouble dissolving dewaxed shellac is lack of agiation.

   Here is what happens:

   you carefully break up nice big flakes so that they dissolve faster.

   Pour them into a jar, pour alcohol over it. give it a few shakes, it starts to dissolve and then you go away.

   The flakes start dissolving on top form a gel and without  agiation the flakes form a jelly like lump that no amount of agitation will fix because they isn't any surface area to expose to alcohol anymore.

   The solution - continually agitate the shellac.

   If you do get some gel break it up with a stick then agitate.

   Better alcohol helps but doesn't solve the problem. (better alcohol certainly  helps in the finishing process but that's not the issue here)

   not breaking up the flakes too fine reduces the chance of forming the lump but also slowes dissolving.  (more space for alcohol between bigger flakes.)

   So - if you are contiuially agitating small flakes are ok - if you are a lazy sod like me - use bigger flakes and you don't need to do as much agitation but the dissolve will take longer.

   The important part of fresh flakes is keep them dry. humiity does effect the dissolve times but in tests so far we can't duplicate the non-dissolving  - but it's easy to duplicate the gel problem that is reported.

   Note: I don't know about the 2 1/2 years of shelf life but I doubt any retailer or wholesaler of any size has stuff hanging around nearly that long. (even including the trip from india and germany) and with proper storage I haven't heard of a single problem.

   joel

   Ps - I should mention that when really old flakes don't dissolve it's because they are oxidized.  Bigger flakes oxidize more slowly (less surface area). breaking up flakes that have begun to oxidize will allow them to dissolve because only the outter layer exposed to air will oxide. THe fine flakes directly from India that are typcially available will oxide faster than the much larger flakes from shellac refined in Germany.  Proper packaging in a BAG that has been squeezed to get the air out will do better also.