Hi Folks,
Last night I was perusing my FWW collection, especially the older issues. I found an interesting letter to the editor about amateur woodworkers in #26 that talked about amateur woodworkers.
The word comes from French, and can be translated as “lover of”, reflecting the amateur’s motivation to work as a result of a love or passion for a particular activity. I thought about that a while and couldn’t come up with anything else that describes how I feel about woodworking.
How do you folks feel?
Wikipedia and several other on-line sites go on to discuss amatuer vs professional, the primary difference being unpaid vs paid for their work. That provoked another thought, i.e.
I get paid handsomely for my woodwork. What price can you put on pleasure and loving the activity of working wood!? Does that mean we’re all professionals?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Oh man -- I actually REMEMBER that article! Must be gettin old. ;-(
On the other hand, my memory is still good enough to remember that OLD article! ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
"I have a photographic memory -- I'm just running out of film."
Right on, Bob. Very productive 'perusing'.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
One difference: professionals tend to spend the vast majority of their time over years and years practicing their craft, while most amateurs spend only leisure time practicing the craft. For some aspects of wood working this makes no difference in the result (the time it take an amateur may be longer). However, in other instances, there is no substitute for the repetition as well as teh braod and deep experience base. Design as well as hand skills like those demanded by Windsor Chair making are instances that come readily to mind.
Samson,
One thing I'm seeing here is the time factor between amateur and professional, albeit the amateur is typically under a variable time frame; perhaps not the right way of saying this. What I mean is that we don't have a strict deadline to completion of a project/piece.
I sense that given a situation where the amateur is having a difficult time with a part or parts for a piece, we can simply put it aside and get back to it later. The professional may not enjoy this luxury very often; these chairs are due Tues. next and I have 30 more to make, and they all have to be finished!
We don't experience the pressure! I don't know about you but when I'm under pressure I tend to slow down cause I know that if I rush, I'll mess it up.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
We don't experience the pressure!
I don't know if I'd call it pressure exactly, but some of the things I build for my family are done with a sense of urgency. For example, that aquarium stand I did. Because the tank is essentially impossible to safely move once filled, and you can't get fish until it is filled, and if you have a 6-year old who wants her fish ...
I find working under pressure an interesting exercise. You can't obssess over every thing. You need to do at as well as possible and move on. In a way, it frees me from "perfectionist syndrome."
Hi Samson,
I guess I should have been a little more specific. What I meant was that we amateurs aren't typically under the same monetary pressures that professionals may be under. We don't face performance bonds, etc., our next meal doesn't depend on our commissions.
We can take the day off if we want to. I take my hat off to the professionals who are out there pounding out a living. It's a daunting task wearing all those hats!
Years ago I tried making a go of it in computers, and I had a great market potential created by a large company. I quickly found out that being the salesman, marketer, designer, production, accountant, etc., etc. required a lot of hours in a day. Many times 24 wasn't enough!
That was pressure, along with 3 mouths to feed and all the bills to pay.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
" I get paid handsomely for my woodwork "
After being in the business for 30+ years I wish I could say that :) I love woodworking. But I've gotten to the point where I wish I was an amateur. Free from deadlines, profit margins ( or, is there any ) and other business headaches and just be able to take my time and enjoy woodworking again.
The finished product is rewarding but the journey should be (is) just as much so.
Paul
Paul,
I make NO PROFIT, except ..........
You touched on many of my fears. I will be retiring soon and want to ddevote as much time as I can to my passion of working with wood. I just hope I don't get caught in the old grind as you allude to.
I feel as long as I can avoid that, life will be good, and I'll have more time to practice to get better.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You should be fine, Bob . It seems to me that when woodworking is your livelihood that's when " I'm sick of it " comes into play. Can't wait for retirement. Then I can fall in love with it all over again.
Paul
Amateur or pro ?
Many in business are amateurs , at least when they started .
As an example Sam Maloof at the earliest stages of his career may have been considered an amateur by some .
When your wood working and the work you do with your two hands and your back actually is the income your family depends on to live ,,,,, you could be an amateur but your working professionally .
A maker can be as talented or more then others , but if he does it because he wants to not has to , then he may be a 40 year journeyman craftsman but not depending on the income makes the shop a professionally run home / hobby shop .
dusty ,,
Hi Bob.............
Interesting thought.......I've been at it quite awhile and from your definition in certain aspects, at particular times, I'm still an amateur. The beauty of woodworking is that there is so much to learn; you begin new methods as an amateaur because you still love it. And that's why I'm not done, my best work is yet to come.
My video blog.........Episode 03 on Carlo Mollino
http://furnitology.blogspot.com/index.html]
from your definition in certain aspects
Whoa!
My definitions/understandings are by no means cast in stone, but your response brings up an interesting aside as part of this discussion:
What are the various classifications/titles for workers of wood, i.e. amateur, journeyman, master, etc? But rather more important might be the qualities/expertise nevessary for each?
Also, as you alluded to, we seem to learn new processes/ways of doing things and new techniques daily. That to me is another great aspect of this craft/art.
Variety is the spice of life!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/31/2007 8:55 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hello Bob
Hope all is well in the north end of the Granite State.
Amateur and Professional. They are both important and different for good reasons. I'm going to take up the Pro for fun. I can. I pay the bills from another means-- most of the time.
I drift in and out of the 2 camps so I think I can add a thought or two.
Recently, I was in the pro mode. I had to make 25-30 chairs in a one man shop. Windsors to boot. I shook hands and gave my word.
The steambox was burning, the lathe was going non-stop, the spindles were piling up... it was busy. My approach changes as most can imagine and.. I change. In my case I become clearly "more focused and time conscientous" as I work. I don't like to cut corners because I sell quality and care. Still, I don't drink coffee and scratch my head between pieces and I sure don't stand around admiring my 70th spindle when I know I have 100 more to go before Thursday. You change: you have a deadline and its your word.
The upside to the pro mode: you concentrate on becoming efficient. Years ago in the test flying business, the best pilot I ever knew said to me- "Dan don't ever confuse activity with efficiency" when you are working. Lots of guys are moving around and sweating but they just can't get it done.
As amateurs, we can turn out the lights when we want to drink wine and nobody cares. We deserve that after a hard day at "the other job" we are working. On the other hand, the pro has to put shoes on the kids and that's very important to consider when we casually evaluate their work wondering if they used a bevel up or bevel down plane taking shavings to .000002
I love to go out to my shop and polish my hock blades to reach nirvana but... the pro has to get Mr McNulty's entertainment center done by Friday.
"and dats it" as Yogi would say.
I get to ignore the clock now because I had to watch every second at 24000 feet getting gas. Now its same day same way.
photo: another world away but.. it was the pro mode.
Edited 10/31/2007 9:06 pm ET by danmart
Neil:I didn't know you frequented this forum.I really enjoy your video blog and you infectious enthusiasm.To others: If you haven't seen it, I strongly recommend it; it's entertaining and informative.Hastings
Hastings...............Thank you very much and I appreciate you're watching.
I sent you a message........Neil
My video blog.........Episode 03 on Carlo Mollino
http://furnitology.blogspot.com/index.html]
Neil - just took Hastings' suggestion and checked out your video blog....all 3 episodes of Carlo Mollino. Good stuff! Liked your router groove fixture and I found you very interesting to listen to and pick up skills/info from. Mollino really does sound like he was quite a character.
Veneering's one of the things I know the absolute least about, so it was doubly a pleasure. Keep it up! I'm ready for episode 4 anytime....
By the way, love your accent. What accent you say? Well, ya see, I'm from kalleyforneeya where just about everybody else has an accent......charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
THANK YOU.. Wonderful video...I was in Turin? One time long ago.. But at the time they were cutting off the ears of us USA folks and sending back for random! ( They could get nothing from me because I had no money except food for the money I had for the children and wife at the time! Red something.. I forget where...) I was hidden in a GREAT Hotel for about three months. The folks there were wonderful to me!) I forget what year but long ago.. I traveled the world fixing machines.I LOVED your videos and I'll be sure to keep up on what you do.. Damn.. If you do not sound like a Mid Westerner from the US?.. I wonder? I'm near Chicago...
If you are paid handsomely and enjoy, ponder the possibility that if you earned less, and therefore remained more pure to the spirit of your craft, you might attain nirvana and thus be at one with you creativity. Obviously you cannot just drop the mercenary mores of a lifetime, but as an act of selfless aid I am prepared to hold for you the considerable sums of money you have accumulated so you may give this a trial.
Blank bank order please, I will do the bookwork for you.
Mufti,
You are truly the kindest of souls. :] To do such a selfless act for our good friend Bob so he can achieve a higher plane of woodworking conciousness is truly overwhelming. Not a bad way of getting some extra tax free money, either. ;-)
Chris.
mufti,
Your generosity is only exceeded by your charm, good looks and that hat! :-)
What I meant by paid handsomely is/was the satisfaction I get from a job well done, the accolades from my better half (which are not bankable (sic)!
Here's the really cool part: I'm sitting on my deck on the new shave horse, shaping/carving a cabriole leg and someone stops and starts a chat about what I'm doing. "What is that you're working on? How do you make them?", etc. Or better yet, I go into the local lumberyard and folks ask me what I'm working on these days.
Word is quickly getting around town that I'm into period furniture. Perfect timing for when I retire soon. Then maybe I might need to take you up on your offer!
Way too much fun for any (if I am) normal person to be having.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 10/31/2007 8:56 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, if friends cannot help with money problems, who can?
I have really fancied making a shaving horse for many years since I do like using draw knives andspoke shaves (the wooden variety) for shaping curves and removing wood generally. Its good to hear it is fun.
To me period furniture means if someone asks me to make something I tell them I will start it in three weeks, or some other period in the future. But I really like true Shaker in the sense that, no, they did not have coffee tables or entertainment centres.
The next decade or so will have to be productive if I am not going to get my hands on your money. I wonder if I can con Lataxe, he is just up the road.
All the best, David
David,
If ever your vise ever fails, jut ask for a lend of my hand. Mind, it only works well if you put money on the wood parts to be gripped, though but. Aye, I yam a tighfisted divvil, except when it comes to shiny tool thangs. Otherwise no one can get the dosh oot me mit!
Of course, I have spent all this month's pension on madcoos and other fancy stuff. There is a secret tool account in which resides moolah for a Veritas plow plane, but that's.......secret! Also, I may have some Aurirou rasp-money buried in a rusty box out in a field miles from here. You will never get it, you rascal.
If you go anywhere near that horde of mine, I have trained Monty the German Pointer to issue a bite or two. Then he will yelp an alarum, as you hobble off on one and a half legs, holding your finger in place until the quack can sew it up. (Monty sometimes eats the finger however - he is a greedy dinner-stealing hound).
Don't think you can snatch the spondulicks and run off quick. Monty's full name is Monty-zoomer, as he can cover 5 miles in a trice and certainly make his way rapidly to your tender parts before you can say, "Desist, you toothsome beast"! Then any nearby spectators will first clap and cheer at the hound's gambols and slights, before gasping then turning away in pity at your unpleasant fate; and also the screams or curses that you will issue in a loud and complaining tone.
*****
As to definitions of amateur - well, I have given up taxonomy and esoteric nomenclature in favour of the fine German concept of isterkeit (as I believe it is spelt). Apparently this is the quality of is-ness, requiring no classification scheme or even a pidgeon hole. So, why worry if one should be labelled amateur, professional or gray-green woodworker of the blibble-fisted draw-raspering school? We can all just make stuff, one way and another and in various styles to various specifications, according to our wont.
Personally I prefer: precise, well-proportioned, clean-limbed and visually harmonius in colour, grain and shine. It is exciting to achieve these attributes with properly functioning tools applied skillfully and with some knowledge of their physic. There: I am classified after all.
Lataxe, a friend to little dogs everywhere but not to money-thiefses.
Whilst I would aspire to the qualities set out in your penultimate paragraph, I do not agree with plastic surgery and will therefore have to be taken as found; and so my friend I must make do even without a wont, for which I have long felt a need.
How do you folks feel?
I make stuff for my family mostly.. So they say beautiful.. I tell them to look for mistakes.. They never find any,, So I tell them where they are.. I get a Big hug and my girls tell me "It's OK'.. Geee..
Hey Will,
I get a Big hug and my girls tell me "It's OK'
Certainly can't put a price tag on that! It's great isn't it. Why is it that we have to get so old to do/enjoy it?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
As a professional you are limited to the level that a client only wants to pay for.
I agree to a point.. I use to make/repair/replace OLD doors on some very old houses..
All they wanted was the same ( or something different )'look'.. I tried to give them good joints.. They never noticed but OK by me.
Wikipedia and several other on-line sites go on to discuss amateur vs professional, the primary difference being unpaid vs paid for their work.
That provoked another thought, i.e. I get paid handsomely for my woodwork.
I do also... but most of my work goes to family and close friends..
I ALWAYS get a big smile.. Enough payment for me!
Looking at amateur vs. proffesional as paid vs. unpaid is a very sipmplistic view. As you point out you are rewarded for your work, but not in cash.
In my opinion the term pro is handed out too easily and too often. Just because someone makes money, or even makes a living doing sothing doesn't necessarily make them a pro. Whenever someone asks about 'turning pro' the answer comes back to: you ahve to be a good business man. So what does money have to do with woodworking? A good businessman could sell a turd!
So what is a pro? In my opinion a pro is someone who is at the top of their craft, pushing boundaries in craftsmanship and in production. A pro is someone who is confident enough to share their knowledge, and confident enough to admit that they to are still learning. That's a pro.
An amateur in woodworking is someone who doesn't know what they're doing and never takes the time to learn it. Characterized by a shop full of tools that NEVER get used.
The rest of us are just woodworkers. Time matters to some of us more than others, and some of us will take commisions. I honestly think if he are going to split ourselves by who makes money and who does't, we should go by hobbiest and paid woodworker... or something like that.
There is another aspect not mentioned, in that as a hobby woodworker, or general factotum because I do anything and everything, the final result of my efforts is a mystery to me until I have done. I wing it all the time, and whilst my efforts are appreciated and admired, as a pro I would sink without trace. I hope I am not alone in being virtually incapable of following plans and conforming to an ideal!
Edited 11/2/2007 2:58 pm ET by mufti
Hi All,
My apologies if this has already been posted.
Just for the record:
am-a-teur : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession. one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science
pro-fes-sion-al : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs. engaged in by persons receiving financial return.
Taken from Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary
Paul
We all understand the definition. But in reality I find that the definitions are not always used in practice. The framers building the house down the street from are proffesional framers by your definition, but in reality they seem more like hired bodies to me.
My belief regarding being a professional is it takes more than just declaring yourself so.
Buster,
I assert that there are amateurs and professionals in every profession.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I assert that there are amateurs and professionals in every profession.
I agree. I just don't think the division between the two is primarily a money issue. I also don't think its a timeline issue, or a pressure issue. Those are issues of running a business.
If you go back to message 23 from danmart discusses time and pressure. I read the message and what impressed me was: "I don't like to cut corners because I sell quality and care." I think that's the true sign of a professional.
To be honest with you I think professional is a term that has to be earned.
Buster
Its been awhile since I posted anything and to tell you the truth its been awhile since I even looked!
I took some time off from woodworking and such. Oh I've begun and finished a few projects during my break but I laid off the heavy stuff! I even delayed thinking of my own business venture (to busy with my chosen profession to even think of a career change for now!)
I've been so busy that I've hardly missed it!
Perhaps in that we may answer Professional Vs Amateur?
I guess it may be defined as must do as aposed to can do!!!
"paitience little grasshopper" when you can take the chisel from my hand you can then leave the school!
The same word - pronunciation and spelling can have different meanings. Professional can have different meanings depending how it is used and sometimes the meaning is not obvious. Ones profession may be a brain surgeon which requires almost endless study and training or picking trash from the interstate which requires no training or study. Never the less, they are both professions. On the other hand, the brain surgeon must be professional but the trash collector does not.
The same word - pronunciation and spelling can have different meanings. Professional can have different meanings depending how it is used and sometimes the meaning is not obvious.
Clearly, but in Bobs original post he refers to: "The word [amateur] comes from French, and can be translated as "lover of", reflecting the amateur's motivation to work as a result of a love or passion for a particular activity." I don't think he is looking for dicrionary quotes.
My view is that there really isn't that much separating amateurs and professional.
David,
You think wistfully to yourself, "I hope I am not alone in being virtually incapable of following plans and conforming to an ideal"!
You are not alone, although it may not be so much a lack of capability in my case as an utter detestation for modes whereby one voluntarily enters and follows some mind-rut or other, perhaps in a desperate attempt to avoid thinking and/or making practical judgements of one kind and another; or a belief that the rut leads to Utopia, Nirvana, Erewhon or some other place that isn't.
Rut-following is evident in many walks of life, including woodworking, where one sees starey-eyed fellows marching firmly to some imagined line that they have drawn into their future. Good luck to them, naturally; but they must not try to drag the rest of us into their rut, no matter how much they wish to impress on us its various "fascinating" twists and turns; or the signposts saying, "Paradise, this way".
Of course, one should pass through a rut or three, just to see what's in there. But it is best to go orthogonally, breaking out of the rut walls and into the free blue air, before sampling another rut briefly over there.
I have been in the machine tool rut, the handtool rut, the Arts and Crafts furrow and so foth. Just now I see a frou-frou rut away yonder, with Bob peeping out of it and also a bloke puttering about on an Indian............
Lataxe, part human, part glider.
Depends a bit don't you think Lataxe?
After all, when I design and plan a piece of furniture I expect to make what I've designed. After all, I've spent a lot of time planning to avoid all the cock-ups and misdirections, so what's the point of aimlessly fiddling when all that work's done?
Put another way: if you don't know where you're going, and have no idea where you are, how the hell do you plan to get from one to the other?
I don't call that a rut. I call it liberating. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
I agree with what you say in that, woodworking being your chosen profession and source of income, it is incumbent upon you to work in an efficient and productive manner. Not being yet regarded as in the John Makepeace league you have to work very hard and consistently to attract clients.
Lataxe and I are horses of a different colour. He has said he is drawn to aspects of woodworking for his own pleasure, with no mention of profit. He clearly enjoys tackling esoteric branches of the craft, and good luck to him.
Much of what I do needs doing for my family and friends and most of my wood is reclaimed high quality stuff. So I adapt ideas to the stock I find.
The serious aspect here is that I think visually, if in my mind I can see the completed project then all is well. If not, nothing goes right even though I may be trying to follow a design. Others think in the abstract and work in a different manner though the end result is similar. This difference in thought processes may be a key factor in achievement when the designer is also the craftsman.
Are you at the Great Northern again this year? It is the show I really enjoy.
"Are you at the Great Northern again this year? It is the show I really enjoy."
Harrogate you mean? Yes, we'll have a stand there. Drop in and introduce yourself if you're about. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 11/3/2007 7:58 pm by SgianDubh
Ah Richard,
You do speak wisely on the planning question, indicating that you have forethought and associated intent. Would that this were always the nature of plans that folk use (i.e. a tool not a religion).
Unfortunately there is often a reversal, whereby The Plan (and oftimes an associated Budget) become the be-all and end-all.
When I was at work (spit) and involved in the construction of many a computer thang, we naturally started with a design appropriate to the intended function of the machine. This would involve some details concerning the order of things to make and the various critical dependencies etc.. Also, we tried to cost the design so as not to spend more money than the machine's functioning would save; or annoy the customer.
But the bean-counters have now arranged the world so that a plan becomes The Plan (alll bow down), a dogma from which one cannot diverge no matter what reality reveals as the project unfolds. Also, the budget is applied in a similar dogmatic way, so that code costing 10,000 monetary units lies unfinished because the last bit of testing and fixing would cost 500 more monetary units over and aboveThe Planned Budget.
Result: nothing is ever made to design but only to fit in with what, after all, was a mere early guess as to how long it might take, what order to make which bits and at what cost. The result is either an abortion that does not fulfill its intended design or the abandonment of the whole project. In short, the plan for a project became a blind ideology and the budget became a millstone around its neck.
Scale this behaviour up and you find that many folk apply this topsy-turvey to their whole lives and all its activities. They substitute dogma for understanding and catechism for decision-making. They will deny reality until it consumes them (and often all their kinfolk). After all, The Rut is an easy road - until it comes to that dead end or even a killing ground.
****
Of course, it is pleasant to have a little drawing and an idea of how much of what timber is required to turn it into a concrete object of the desired type and fashion. However, when the making begins, it is also nice to be able to adapt to its realities rather than abandon the chair or cabinet because one piece has a knot, it is taking 5 weeks instead of 4 or the original budget cannot run to a tin of Finishing Oil.
And, as I suspect you know more than most, an overambitious design may sometimes turn out to be unfeasible in the flesh. (A bit like a religion that demands we all follow the ten commandments in all circumstances, however dire). But why should we nor change what turns out to be a flight of fancy if reality says, "No"!.
Lataxe, definitely not planned for and much more costly than his mammy and daddy realised. Also, did not turn out to be a concert pianist nor even a brain surgeon.
I accept all your points Lataxe. I was offering up an alternative point of view. Your point about over-ambitious design is interesting. That's where design really should come in, for it's not the design that's overly ambitious, it's usually the money, the time, the planning, etc, that's lacking. Something almost certainly is out of kilter between the ambition of the project set against the paucity of something else.
I use an analogy for describing furniture design, which of course includes proper planning. You're in Bath and you need to get to Newcastle by car. You 'design' and 'plan' a route, then set off on the journey. You get to Birmingham and find the M42 is closed. A hitch, but with a properly planned route and end goal you can get your maps out and work out a way around the obstacle.
It's cost you some time, and more expense in fuel, but if you've done your design work correctly and given a price to your customer then you've got a bit of 'fudge factor' built in to allow for such eventualities.
I can see of course that setting out to create specialist computer programmes for large companies and government contracts is far more complicated than a piece of furniture or someone's kitchen. Look at the IT cock-ups in governement contracts, eg, NHS, and others. Perhaps in these examples it's mostly down to the triumph of vanity and/or ambition over reality? I'd call that 'know nothing consultant' heaven. Has there ever been a financial/IT/legal/business consultant that said, "Everything is just hunky-dory as it is. You don't need our services at all."?
Answers on a very small, or even non-existent, postcard will probably be all that's required, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Hey Everyone,
Goy one for ya.
Any idea how many designs of just about anything you can think of came to fruition from a drawing on a beer soaked napkin from the Old Worthen pub in Lowell, MA?
Hint: It is an establishment frequented by virtually every walk of life from computer exec to trash pickers to politicians.
And the food is pretty damn good too!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
from a drawing on a beer soaked napkin..And I followed it Exactly and it was all crooked! But I liked the color.. I was drinkin' that brown German beer!Sam Adams I think!
Edited 11/6/2007 8:34 pm by WillGeorge
Lataxe, ducky,
Methinks we may be in need of another word, neither amateur nor professional, to describe your woodworking perambulations, and meme-avoiding rut-skipping. Is it dilettante?
Ray
"Is it dilettante?"
Nah Ray. Too suggestive of single-minded dedication in Lataxe's case, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Ray,
I yam trying to avoid them labels, despite the contemptuous glances and snickering from the label-infested youth of the village, not to mention them Joneses with whom one is supposed to keep up via the acquisition (using any means) of emblems such as certain brands of motorcars and similar schlock. It seems those folk cannot feel that they exist except as defined by their various labels, on the clothes or in their heads.
Over there and also thither are the wooden thangs I made, using various meme-schemes and me mits. We can call them "this table", "that chair", etc.
You can call me Lataxe or any other name, descriptive or otherwise. Whatever it is "I" am will remain the same (but not for long) no matter what label is stuck on. :-)
It was that Plato that started all this association of real things with ideals, proper names, etc.. I wish them Spartans that he admired so much had tossed the old sod off a cliff, or whatever it was the nasty creatures did to them as they felt thought or spoke overmuch.
Lataxe, dedicated to having no ideals, being lazy and changing his many minds every so often (periods varies with events, especially the weather and what the ladywife says).
Lataxe, (if that is still your name),
I agree with you completely, right at this moment...no wait...
Someone, I thought it was Jefferson, maybe it was Emerson, it may have been another thinker entirely, said that thing about a foolish consistancy being the hobgoblin of little minds. But I also wonder about the minds of those who are foolishly inconsistant. I believe that foolishness is the thing that is revelatory. You may, of course, think me a fool for believing that.
Ray, who believes that butterflies as well as badgers have a place and a purpose
Ray,
Take heart (ooops), he's just trying to stir the pot. I'll bet it has something to do with a tax on tea! :-)
I think of labels as nothing more than an easy, commonly known, point of reference as used by the OP. Something to differentiate between novice/hobbyist/journeyman/professional, etc.
If I make a box does it mean I'm a cabinetmaker?
As for badgers, do you know how to catch a side hill badger? Up here, because we're north of the Equator, their left legs are shorter than their right legs.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"As for badgers, do you know how to catch a side hill badger? Up here, because we're north of the Equator, their left legs are shorter than their right legs."
Yeah, you force them to turn around so that the long leg is down, they roll down the hillside, and you catch them in a net at the bottom.
Boy, that one's old. Straightfaced Scots have been using a version of it for years to describe the habits of the haggis to gullible yankee tourists. And Sir Thomas Browne included it in his Pseudodoxia Epidemica ("Popular Errors") in 1646. Nearly as old as me.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Sir Thomas Browne included it in his Pseudodoxia Epidemica ("Popular Errors") in 1646.
Hmmmmmmmm, my birthday is just 300 years shy of 1646!
The only Scots blood in my family tree is from an uncle by marriage. Perhaps some of his relatives knew of Sit Thomas!?
Say, you sound like an old pro side hill badger catcher!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/8/2007 3:12 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
'Say, you sound like an old pro side hill badger catcher!'
Nah, just one of the ghillies holding the nets. The real pros were the beaters who got them running widdershins round the brae.
Jim
how to catch a side hill badger.. No but I know how to catch a Polar Bear..You cut a circle in the ice and place fresh peas all around the hole. When the bear comes to tale a Pee you kick him in the Icehole!
Will,
Ha, Ha, Ha!
That was funny! I see you've warmed up again. Right up there with the leaf blower one!
Thanks for the gut buster,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 11/9/2007 8:22 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men. I see you were/are into 'puters'.. It takes a bit of humor to get through those problems that arrive!
Hi Will,
I used to be in computers and now I use them as a tool in work and for research in woodworking. Now I'm a somputer scale operatoe in a landfill, getting ready to retire next summer.
Then I will be a woodworker full time, but not professionally. Just supplement my retirement and keep me busy. Don't want it to become a have to type of thing. I think that would take a lot of the fun out of it.
Also, I hope to travel some and hopefully visit some of you Knotheads out there! I have a trip that I'm planning to Winterthur and Colonial Williamsburg. Maybe other stops along the way too. This summer I hope to get over to Maine to LN and others.
Regards,
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I traveled the world all my life.. If I never see a AIR-O-PLANE it will be to soon for me!
Something to differentiate between novice/hobbyist/journeyman/professional..Money and free time?
Buster,
You wrote;
An amateur in woodworking is someone who doesn't know what the're doing and never takes the time to learn it. Characterized by a shop full of tools that NEVER get used.
By definition, I'll bet most of us here are amateurs. For most of us engage in woodworking as a pasttime, expressing our creative nature, making useful things for friends and family, or to save some bucks doing home projects; custom made to our liking. We don't fit into your description of an amateur.
What you described was a fool, with more money than brains.
Chris. :-]
Chris,
I have more brains than money but yam nevertheless a fool and oftimes an eejit.
Of course, I do use my many tools, with vigour and gusto. My amateurish products are even used by folk, some of whom also go ooh and ahh, as they admire the polished piece.
Still, I am easily persuaded to do things that are hard to rationalise, even after the fact. For instance, I have bought a tool or two that are not effective; also one or two that languish in a cupboard. And today I spilt a bottle of glue all over the shed floor despite years of practicing not to.
Lataxe, barely competant at many things.
Ahhh...me good friend Lataxe, nice to hear from you.
I know the feeling of what you wrote, I'm right there with ya. I believe the problem stems from the fact that both of us, as individuals, are but just a man. Mere mortals. Human. Homosapiensometimesnotsosmarticus. But shoot, aren't we having fun???
Chris, having fun on this side of the pond.
We don't fit into your description of an amateur.
Of course not! That was the point. If you read the last paragraph, I think most of us are just Woodworkers. Not pros, not amateurs; just woodworkers.
Amateur has such a negative connotation to it, when looking at it as positive and negative the lines between the two is very blurred. Some of the best amateurs I know, could blow the worst 'professionals' out of the water.
In the end I think the word pro should mean something. Not just that someone has decided to accept some money for their woodworking.
"Amateur has such a negative connotation to it..."
I don't think that's true. It can have a negative connotation (e.g., "amateurish"), but it's not the word itself, it's the context in which it's used. There are plenty of contexts where it just means, "doing it for the fun of it."
-Steve
There are plenty of contexts where it just means, "doing it for the fun of it."
Fair enough.
I'm not promoting abolishing the words Amateur and Professional from woodworking. However it would be good for all of us to remember that the titles give absolutely no insight into the quality of the work, or the speed of production.
In the end I'd rather be called a Hobbyist Woodworker... Cause that's what I am.
And I bet you are very professional in your woodworking whether you work as an amateur or a professional.
I know, that's why I added the smiley face at the end. I wuz having a leetle fun with that paragraph cuz after reading it, fool with more money than brains was the first thing to pop into my brain.
Other than that, I'm in concurrence with what you wrote in your post.
Chris, just having fun...as usual.
fool with more money than brains was the first thing to pop into my brain.I was that! Now... I'm a fool with No brains and NO money!.. Gee... Life is hard when your old! and no work!
Oh Will, join the club. We're all built bassackwards, you know, our hindsight is better than our foresight and often we can talk the same language out of both ends.
Got me 16yrs to go before I'm at the 'no work' stage of my life. As for the no money stage, I'm there already. As for the OLD part, I'm catching up there, too; my body is starting to sound more and more like the floor...creak, crack, creak...
My uniform got dirty too. Mostly greasey, taking care of them thar leetle power units ya hook up to an airplane when it's on the ground.
AAAAnd,,, I know you're just funnin' with yourself about being a fool. I've come to know ya a little from readin' these here posts on Knots, and the times we chatted before. You Sir, are no fool.
Have a good day my friend,
Chris.
An amateur in woodworking is someone who doesn't know what the're doing and never takes the time to learn it. Characterized by a shop full of tools that NEVER get used. That is me fer sure! I got tools I cannot remember where there are and just use my everyday tools.. Sort of like when I fixed BIG printing presses.. I had to do with what i brought with me at the time.. 40 years plus and never got a complaint that I know of..OK,,, SO I had come tank commander in the Army cuss me out for having a dirty uniform after getting the Command Tank out of the mud!
TWO TRAMPS IN MUD TIME
Out of the mud two strangers came
And caught me splitting wood in the yard,
And one of them put me off my aim
By hailing cheerily "Hit them hard!"
I knew pretty well why he had dropped behind
And let the other go on a way.
I knew pretty well what he had in mind:
He wanted to take my job for pay.
Good blocks of oak it was I split,
As large around as the chopping block;
And every piece I squarely hit
Fell splinterless as a cloven rock.
The blows that a life of self-control
Spares to strike for the common good,
That day, giving a loose my soul,
I spent on the unimportant wood.
The sun was warm but the wind was chill.
You know how it is with an April day
When the sun is out and the wind is still,
You're one month on in the middle of May.
But if you so much as dare to speak,
A cloud comes over the sunlit arch,
A wind comes off a frozen peak,
And you're two months back in the middle of March.
A bluebird comes tenderly up to alight
And turns to the wind to unruffle a plume,
His song so pitched as not to excite
A single flower as yet to bloom.
It is snowing a flake; and he half knew
Winter was only playing possum.
Except in color he isn't blue,
But he wouldn't advise a thing to blossom.
The water for which we may have to look
In summertime with a witching wand,
In every wheelrut's now a brook,
In every print of a hoof a pond.
Be glad of water, but don't forget
The lurking frost in the earth beneath
That will steal forth after the sun is set
And show on the water its crystal teeth.
The time when most I loved my task
The two must make me love it more
By coming with what they came to ask.
You'd think I never had felt before
The weight of an ax-head poised aloft,
The grip of earth on outspread feet,
The life of muscles rocking soft
And smooth and moist in vernal heat.
Out of the wood two hulking tramps
(From sleeping God knows where last night,
But not long since in the lumber camps).
They thought all chopping was theirs of right.
Men of the woods and lumberjacks,
The judged me by their appropriate tool.
Except as a fellow handled an ax
They had no way of knowing a fool.
Nothing on either side was said.
They knew they had but to stay their stay
And all their logic would fill my head:
As that I had no right to play
With what was another man's work for gain.
My right might be love but theirs was need.
And where the two exist in twain
Theirs was the better right--agreed.
But yield who will to their separation,
My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only where love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes.
Robert Frost
What more could I add?
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
mudman,
If I could construct furniture as spare and well, with the same look of ease, that Frost made verse, then I'd feel safe to call myself a pro.
Ray
Amen. The last stanza is what I try to live by. I am keeping my cake and eating it too.
Many amateurs/hobbyist assume that turning our avocation into a vocation will ruin the magic. Not so for me. If I wasn't a professional I would never have been able to make half the amazing things I have.
I believe that there is no greater compliment than those that come from the pocket book. It is nice to have your friends comment on your work and marvel at your skill. However when someone writes a check for a few thousand dollars with my my name at top, I know that they really like the work. And it is not about the money, that has never been my motivation, it is about the pride I feel that someone values my skill and time so much.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike,
And it is not about the money, that has never been my motivation, it is about the pride I feel that someone values my skill and time so much.
Very well put.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I think we assume that the words amateur and pro reflect a level of skill. Though I think it's about whether you get paid for the task or not. I've seen alot of weekend wariors do much better work than many pro's. And the other way around as well. I recall a thread from not long ago where we promoted ourselves to the level of "Master". We could do that again, but call ourselves "Pro Masters" if everyone thinks they are due for a promotion.
If our work is good enough to please those who own it or will use it, Great! We'll promote yourselves to a title of our choice. Raise a glass (or bottle) to ourselves. Update our resumes, and buisness cards. In the morning after the promotion party, we'll grab a cup of java, head the the shop where we can cut boards too short, insert slivers under our skin, and drop well sharpened tools onto the concrete floor.
And the sun will rise again,
GRW
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