Replies

1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Jun 11, 2007 07:38pm | #1

   I could be wrong but hopefully it's dewaxed shellac.  If not, I would suspect that you may have problems with the wax.

   Regards,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

1. 
   spitfire | Jun 11, 2007 08:14pm | #2

   well it is Zissers out of a can.  3:2 dilution with alcohol.  IS that brand dewaxed??

2. 
   Kevin | Jun 11, 2007 09:10pm | #3

   Why do you want to stain over a washcoat? Typically it's done the other way around with the washcoat being used over dye.

   To answer your question more directly... sure, you can use dye over a washcoat. How well it takes is largely going to be a result of how thin the washcoat is. Consider, however, that you are wanting to use a water-based dye over shellac. I don't typically use water-based dyes and so don't really know how well it would work. But I suspect that it could pool up a bit if the wood is too thoroughly sealed by the shellac and because being water-based it won't bite into the shellac.

   I would suggest trying it on scrap and judge the results for yourself. One thing that you could try is adding a small amount of alcohol to the dye. Since denatured alcohol and water are 100% miscible with each other, it shouldn't affect the dye and would provide a bit of bite into the shellac washcoat. But as I say, test it on scrap first.

1. 
   spitfire | Jun 11, 2007 09:17pm | #4

   Well, this is where I was coming from.  I am building two small tables out of cherry for a friend.  I have, like many others, experienced problems with overall blotchiness with staining cherry.

   Recently, I started using water based analine dyes more and like the results.  So, to avoid the blotching I was going to try using a washcoat of 3:2 shellac.

   Oh and you bet, I'd try it on scrap pieces from this project for sure. 

    

     

   Edited 6/11/2007 2:18 pm ET by spitfire

1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Jun 11, 2007 10:26pm | #6

   With Kevin you're in better hands than the advice I can provide.  I'll be following this as I will be doing some cherry in a while.

   Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres

    

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

2. 
   doorboy | Jun 11, 2007 09:17pm | #5

   Kevin, there are situations where you WOULD apply the washcoat first. Such as when trying to minimize the "barberpole" effect that some plain sliced and bookmatched veneers tend to create, or to minimize the blotchiness of birch.
   Your advice to spitfire is dead-on, though. Try it on a piece of scrap first."Roger Staubach for President"

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 11, 2007 10:59pm | #7

   The waterbased dye is better used directly over bare wood unless you are going for particular effects.  I use dye over a wash coat on mahogany because in that case I am trying to create more figure where the dye penetrates the more open areas leaving the denser areas with less color because the shellac has more completely sealed them. 

   That could well be the effect you would get here, but it would be more blotch rather than less, which is probably just the opposite of what you want.

   The water based dye doesn't contribute much blotch over bare wood in the first place since, unlike oil based wiping stains, it penetrates both dense and porous parts of the wood almost alike. 

   I don't think waxed or dewaxed would be the factor that would matter here.  Zinsser sells only one dewaxed product in cans.  It's labeled Seal Coat.  The Amber or Clear that you often find contains the natural shellac wax.  The shellac in the aerosol cans is also dewaxed.  Dewaxed shellac is more water resistant that shellac that still contains the wax. 

    

4. 
   Danceswithwoods | Jun 12, 2007 12:52am | #8

   Yes, you can. I used this on a queen-sized bed of solid birch to keep the blotchiness from occurring. It worked well. I did find though with test pieces that I had to sand lightly with 320 after the spit coat and before the dye to get the depth of color (dark walnut w/black mix) I wanted. It will work well for you. DWW

5. 
   PeteBradley | Jun 12, 2007 02:28am | #9

   I generally avoid adding alcohol to a waterbased dye to be wiped on. It messes with the surface tension of the dye, which can lead to strange patterns and blobs around pores in the wood. I haven't tried it on washcoated cherry though, so who knows?

   The advice about testing is the key.

   Pete

6. 
   PNH60 | Mar 03, 2018 05:37pm | #10

   I have been experimenting and one result i do like is dye over bare wood, light sanding, light cost of waxless shellac, light sand then dye again. Thus was on soft Maple and is very even.

7. 
   80021 | Feb 23, 2019 11:46am | #11

   Anilin dye over a wash coat of shellac

   I have completed a Chippendale chest of cherry. I want to apply a thin wash coat of 1 pound cut shellac, then use a antique Cherry analin dye. The follow with a garnet shellac in very thin coats. Question does it make any difference between water soluable or alcohol soluable analin dye?

8. 
   pintodeluxe | May 01, 2019 06:43pm | #12

   I would stick to oil based stain over a 3:2 shellac seal coat. I have had great luck with that formula when staining cherry. Rodda stains makes one called Spiced Walnut that looks heavenly over a 3:2 washcoat.
   Good luck!