A couple of weeks back, someone posted information a table saw accident. I thought it was helpful and informative.
Well…today I had one. I’ll be fine. But the accident I had didn’t involve my finger contacting the blade, and I was doing a procedure I’ve done hundreds of times.
I needed to rip two narrow (1″) strips from a short board (10″) on the table saw. I set the fence to 1″ and used my narrow-stock push stick for a safe cut. First cut made, I moved the cut off away from the blade with the push stick so I could make the second pass for strip #2. As I contacted the cut off with the push stick, I must have pushed it into the rear of the blade. It kicked violently, the cut off striking my finger with great force. I broke a bone in my finger, sprained the first knuckle and the impact burst my finger tip, ripping the flesh open to where it needed 6 stitches.
I’m sure my action was careless when I sought to move the cut off with the push stick. Yet, I’ve done that hundreds of times. I’m only now considering if that us an unsafe operation in general? I would like to know what others’ thoughts are. (I’ve watched David Marks move cut offs away with the eraser end of a pencil.) Is it necessary to stop the table saw, wait for the blade to stop, then move the cut off?
Another thing is that the narrow stock push stick I was using is a new one – and of a design slightly different than the one I’ve been using for years. Perhaps that contributed to my error?
I’ve attached photos of the cut and the push stick. One shows the cut, a second shows what became of the cut off and the push stick from the kickback.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Frank
Replies
Frank,
My method has never failed me. I often cut small pieces on the tablesaw - just tonight, I cut a dozen or so pen blanks, each 3/4" square and 5" long. I set the fence to 3/4" and cut them to size. The push blocks I use are made from an 8" lenght of 2x4 and are shaped as in the attachment. When cutting stock narrower than the push block (1-1/2"), I set the blade 1/16" higher than the stock so that it just scores the push block. I feed the stock through the saw, keeping the push block against the fence. The push block carries both the workpiece and the offcut past the back of the blade safely.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Glad your mishap was not worse, and I hope you a speedy recovery. This is why I love the Gripr's. I've used them over and over. For small or large cuts they are great. You keep downard pressure on both sides of the blade and keep your fingers out of the way. Watch the video at the bottom of the page.
http://www.microjig.com/
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I will second the GRRipper. I picked one up a few months ago at a WW show and it is awesome for ripping small pieces all the way down to a 1/4". As you know, if it is set up correctly, it will carry both pieces out of the way of the spinning blade. What a great tool.Josh
Thanks Bones,
The woodworking show is coming to NJ in a couple of weeks. I think I'll take a look at the Gripr.
If you are going to the woodworking show in NJ, also have a look at the Grip-Tite anti-kickback splitter from Mesa Vista design. It's a little steel L-shaped pin that installs in your throat plate. Its adjustable and removable. Costs about ten bucks - or a buck a finger.
A-Phreakin-Men about using The Gripperrrrrrfor narrow rips and short rips. Keeps your hand well above the sharp spinning things and controls BOTH sides of the part being ripped. Tall flat side to register against the fence discourage wandering at the end of the cut. Great safety device when routing shorter stuff on the router table as well.Agree that a riving knive, set properly and nice and close to the rear upper quardrant of the blade cuts down the risk of kickbacks and Flip 'N Fly (which short pieces tend to do - and in this instance that tell tale arc cut in the piece indicates that this was a Flip 'N Fly). Splitters on the other hand do little if anything to reduce "kickback" risks unless the blade is at max height. Then the splitter is close enough to the teeth rising out of the table top at the rear of the blade to be effective.Another accident waiting to happen is to try and do a rip cut on a short piece of wood - with a sliding compound miter saw. DAMHIKT (Don't Ask Me How I Know This). Even ricochet's can do some serious damage. Still haven't found that piece of wood, even after cleaning up the shop. Might have vaporized due to its high velocity - had to be going well over Mach Five.
I concur with the Grripper recommendation. Otherwise, cutting a skinny piece from a short piece scares the crap out of me, push stick or not.
Also, since I'm under no production pressure, I always wait until the blade stops before trying to remove the piece.
I did much the same thing a couple of years ago, using a shop-made jig recommended by the saw's manufacturer for small cuts. Oddly enough, I think the mistake I made was leaving the blade guard on, since there was barely room for the pushstick to clear it. My right hand wasn't really close to the blade. What ticked me off was that the piece shattered and flew out to the left hitting my left hand and lacerating two fingers badly. Had I stood in the "wrong" place in line with the blade I wouldn't have been hurt. The lesson I took from it was never to run small pieces through the TS, even if they fall within the manufacturer's guidelines. Now I do it by hand. I was left with the uneasy feeling that even following all of the rules doesn't prevent every accident. The fingers healed, but my grip isn't quite what it was -- not a heavy price to pay. I hope you heal well without too many problems.
Best, Jim
That TS is a man eater. Small stuff can get away from you and it happens sooooooooooooooooooo quickly. Its a great tool but you just can not be too careful around it.
dan
I've attached photos of the cut and the push stick. One shows the cut, a second shows what became of the cut off and the push stick from the kickback
By the looks of the 1st picture the remnant probably would have traveled another inch forward to finish the cut allowing for the condition of a kickback. What I don’t see... is a splitter! Enough on that...
I don't really care for your push stick as it looks like your hand is really close to the blade but that is probably more of a personal preference. Me, I either want my hand down on the wood or if a push stick is used I want my hands well away from the blade...
Glad to hear you accident was no worse than it was... Funny thing, well, maybe not so funny but the next time you start ripping wood you will probably find yourself being quite nervous!
lee
Whatever happened today (and I'm glad it wasn't worse), you are really asking for trouble running that saw without a splitter.
Forestgirl,
It's been a lot of years since I've made my decisions about splitters and guards. My choice not to use them is (was) a considered one. It might be time to rethink a splitter.
The upside of a splitter is obvious. What, if any, are the downsides?
Thanks, Frank
I can think of no downside to a splitter. The ones with anti-kickback pawls sometimes aggravate people, but a simple insert-mounted splitter should not have any aggravation factor.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I agree with you and I don't have any aggravation from the splitter.On my splitter, I have sharpened the teeth on the pawls so nothing can travel forward from them (without destroying the splitter). They are set at 1/8th inch above the insert. I use an after market Biesemeyer insert splitter with a Biesemeyer over arm guard. The guard CAN BE adjusted to almost touch the fence side of the blade if need be for push stick clearance. CAN BE but I don't. Other than dado, I always use the guard/splitter and if it's too tight in the fence side to cut safely, I don't. I cut strips,etc to the left and stop after each cut. Slow, but after all this is fine working on fine and expensive woods not Tim Allen power milling mass quantities white wood. :-)John
I really think the problem here is solely on the splitter side. It probably would have prevented this accident. Regardless of the push stick, once wood gets caught by the back of the blade, all bets are off. I use a splitter like this:http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51151&cat=1,41080,41165The only downside is that it takes about 2 seconds to pluck it off the table when you're cutting dados or rabbets, or using a jig that won't clear the plastic. I'm not kidding - it's really easy to pop it in or pull it out. The $20 for this type of splitter seems like overkill, but they install and work surprisingly well. This is the only "safety" equpment on my 3HP tablesaw, and it's been flawless in performance over the last 4 years. I'm sorry about your accident - best wishes on your recovery.-t
Edited 2/3/2008 8:26 pm by webted
Ted,
You sound pretty satisfied with the splitter. Have you ever had stock warp while cutting? Last year this happened and the stock pinched the splitter. It started to kick back (got above the blade, but I maintained relative control) and threw the splitter. I finally found it a few weeks later twenty feet (yes, 20) behind the saw.Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Hi Chris:Yeah, I've ripped some case hardened hardwood and some otherwise tensioned softwood - particularly cedar. I find eastern (sugar/rock) maple can be surprisingly squirrely at times. I still haven't had anything bind up so tight that it either bent the splitter or seized the cut. I have had that problem with the wood and metal splitters I used in the past. You never know, though - it could just be a matter of time... I think the reduced friction of the plastic splitter is one of it's advantages. I also tend to plow wood through the blade at a relatively fast clip. I think this makes a big difference in kickback, and I thought someone did a FH article on that a few years ago? Of course, the speed of the cut all depends on the beef of your saw. Caveat emptor!I hate to come across as some sort of "apostle of the gadget", but I always found homemade splitters tedious to make, and the 'store-bought' ones awfully expensive. I put the microsplitter on a x-mas list years ago, almost on a lark, and I've literally used it on every ripcut I've made since. I've had wood kickback on me, and I always feel bad when I hear it happen to someone else. Glad to see you escaped unscathed, and you found your splitter again! Maybe that's why they give you three or four of them in the pack! :^)-t
Frank: Glad it's not serious! I have an "L" shaped scar on my chest, not far from my neck, (jugular?). tryed to push the cutoff away and b/4 I knew, it bounced off me & THRU a screened porch. I put my hand where it hit & felt liguid. I got to the fridge to get ice & when I went to put the ice on, I found out the "liquid" was sweat, this was in FL when it's hot. Scared the poop out of me. Too close to my neck. I'll never try to do that again
James
Frankfive,
I think your asking the wrong question, you know the answer. I think you need an attitude adjustment...you need to show a greater devotion to cowardice when it comes to the TS, like me.
I don't know how many times I'm about to do something on the TS and I find myself saying, 'How would a pro do this cut'? what are the rules...and time is money, blah, blah. Then I hear a little voice that says what would my wife say if she knew the rules and saw me making this cut? Generally I'll listen to that little voice, pull up my panty hose and do the cut another way..to hell with efficiency, I need my fingers.
Frank, you said it in your first post: you should have turned off the saw an then removed the piece. Also, you should have noticed that would be an issue before you turned the saw on. So change that attitude and be more of a whimp in the shop...I won't tell.
I like your term TS coward. I see on TV shows people doing rips and reaching over a running blade to pick up the pieces and do a second cut. I grimace at the sight. Last night I was ripping some panels (4) down with lots of room between me and the blade. In my mind replication breads complacency and then accidents. I know it's probably overkill, but I kill that saw after every cut. I wait for that blade to stop and then I get the pieces out, and start the saw for the next cut. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
I hope Frank realizes I was accusing myself of not thinking hard enough not trying to insult him.
The reality is that is a very tricky cut. The piece of stock is short so a splitter never comes into play. His stock is on the zero clearance plate...and the push shoe could cause the plate to tip up. The gripper might work well if it pulls the offcut with it through past the blade. This cut is not dissimilar to the offcuts when using a miter, or cross cut sled...turn off the saw, then remove...anything else and your wife would roll her eyes (their goes the idiot again)
The piece of stock is short so a splitter never comes into play.With all due respect...that is not true. If the splitter was installed properly behind the blade and protruding through or glued IN the rear end of the zero clearance insert, it would have worked just fine, the stock is not too short. Look at the OP pictures again. Plenty long enough for a splitter to have done it's job. And IMO a splitter would have prevented this injury.I have a second comment to everyone. I run my blade at a lower height than the OP shows in his pictures. I set my blade height to have the bottom of the gullet at TDC to be level with the top of the material. That generally gives me about 3/8" or 1/2" of tooth clearance (NOT half of a tooth) at the top of the arc above the material. Now before anybody jumps on my back, YES, I HAVE HAD THE MATERIAL RISE ON ME during the cut 'if I try to feed too fast'. I am aware of this downside and act accordingly (and I am religious about using sharp blades), so...I do not have this problem.Does anyone think that the blade height could also have contributed to this accident, especially since a splitter was not in use? Regardless, a splitter would most likely have prevented this kickback and injury.To the OP...I hope you heal well and completely.Safe sawing to everyone...JeffEdited 2/3/2008 4:39 pm by jeff100
Edited 2/3/2008 4:43 pm by jeff100
Jeff,
I think you are right. Were a splitter in place, it would have been far less likely that the blade would not have gotten enough purchase on the cutoff to create the force it did.
I also share your thoughts on blade height. I like that TDC gullet just above the thickness of the stock. Photos are hard to judgee but in the pictuer (I just went and measured) the gullet us 3/16 above the height oif the stock.)
My thoughts are that if the blade us set lower, it creates the perfect kickback machine (far too many teeth touching the stock at one time.) It it's too high it creates too much lift as the rear of the blade comes up. By setting that TDC gullet just above the stock, you are at the lowest safe position.
Thanks for the kind wishes.
Frank
There's a discussion over in Breaktime of the most dangerous tools, you all might want to take a look.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=100270.1Leon
Wow, didn't know whether to laugh or cringe. There are a few guys over there who should consider a career change...
I did appreciate hearing about the dangers of cutting thin plexi and/or lexan on the TS though. I don't do this often but occassionally, however, all it takes is one time to mess up. Anyone know if holddowns or even the Brett guard are suitable to prevent these types of problems? If you don't know what I'm talking about, read the thread. (My favourite is the guy who got his head stuck between a bulldozer and a tree.)
Andy
BG,
No worries, I took your comments in the spirit in which I believe you intended them and found it helpful. I didn't take it as an insult.
We're never too old to learn from our mistakes and I appreciate all the advise and the constructive criticism.
Frank
BG,
That's what worries me: I already am coward and this still happened!
We are all wise after the event BUT table saws are usually not set up for safety AND they are not the tool for isty bitsy sizes of stock. Yes, I use a splitter and I use a short fence that does not go beyond the back of the blade and a shatterproof plastic sheet over the blade and a shaped ply push stick that pushes down on the front of the stock and the back edge, yet still make a scrap carrier to help short stuff past the blade. Nor would I cut tenons using my hands and a fence to carry stuff over a blade.
I have had my share of doing daft things starting with putting a finger in a clothes mangle gears when very young, (it was sewn back), so try to not cut corners now. It takes longer to heal after than to take precautions before.
Timely - I just read somewhere where the suggested minimum length to be ripped is 12". Less than that use the BS - no kickback is possible.Table saw coward? You betcha! I was ripping a small piece of wood on my Jet JTAS shortly after I bought it a few years ago and something happened (forgot what exactly) and the saw kicked the wood back at my midsection hitting the belt buckle of my tool pouch. Even with the tool pouch belt absorbing some of the impact, I still had an angry looking bruise. Count me in as being a TS coward!In our former sailboating days, I always called myself "Chicken of the Sea" - I told my wife that if one of us falls overboard while offshore, consider yourself dead due to the difficulty of locating a small object in the ocean. That statement set the tone of us never taking chances and always thinking safety while making offshore passages. We never had any close calls in our 5,000 miles of offshore cruising.
Thanks for the reminder. These 'injury posts' serve as remarkable wake-calls. I hope you heal quickly and have minimal after effects - other than a new-found respect for the monster.
A thought: I ALWAYS go to the bandsaw for short and narrow pieces.
Forest Girl and I have been having a discussion under "Brett saw guard" which is relevant.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
i don't think it was a design fault in your stick or the method by which you employed it. The guards to your saw would in all likelyhood prevented it. We all know exactly where our TS guarding is...(mine is in the plastic bag that it came in, i never even installed it once!)
The solution to your "accident" is a splitter or riving knife. You've been blessed with only a humbling experience and some pain, it could have been far worse. Take extra care when ripping or cutting ANYTHING short.
The guard that came with my saw (Jet c.1992 - blue, not white) was long ago thrown away for safety reasons. It would provide safety from actually putting your hand into the blade from top down, but made practically every actual cutting operation more dangerous than it had to be.
I had looked into and considered aftermarket guards years back, but never found one I really thought was safe.
With 24 hours past now since the accident and the advise from all the good folks here I've come to the following.
1.) No more moving the cut off away with a push stick without shutting down and waiting for the blade to stop.
2.) While I don't think the ripping operation I was doing was unsafe with the pushstick I was using (though clearing the cutoff was,) I will definatelu think bandsaw first for short stock.
3.) Fifteen years (even though they were accident free until yesterday) is too long to go without reevaluating the advances in guards, splitters, etc. I need to do that.
Thanks to everyone who responded to this post!
Frank
Frank,
I don't know if anyone commented on this, but it seems that the wider part of the stock should have been on the right side of the blade, instead of having the cut piece on the right. That way, the wider section would be pushed past the blade, and the narrow section would be clear (to the left) of the blade after the cut. This would leave more room for controlling the feed between the fence.
If you needed to make more than one cut of the same width, then perhaps a thin strip ripping jig like those shown on Fine WoodWorking or Wood Magazine would help.
Frank, when you go to get the Grripper --get two and the handle offset things as well-- you will love em. Also the best for use with a jointer. Be safe.
Paddy-with the asysemetrical tip on his ring finger.
"Frank, when you go to get the Grripper --get two and the handle offset things as well-- you will love em. Also the best for use with a jointer. Be safe.
Paddy-with the asysemetrical tip on his ring finger"
I'll second that!!!!!! In comination with their MJ splitter it's a great duo! You get to keep the splitter in place and the grripper slides right over it! Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Frank,
Thanks for reminding us to be careful, and honest. Hope your finger heals quickly.
I'm seriously considering a Grrrrrriper. It looks like it works well with just a spliter. If my spliter has pawls (or a riving knife with pawls -- is there a difference) do I have to remove them to use the Grrrrriper?
Dorsett
David Marks does not always use the safest methods when taping. For example, no long loose fitting long sleeves around any lathe or saw (even with a sled). In private, he may work safer. I understand there is a personal reason for wearing long sleeves (tattoos) on the show. One may emulate what he teaches, but not necessarily how he teaches.
Also, IMHO, moving small cut offs (one at a time) with an eraser away from the blade when using a sled with a very high stout backboard and the cut offs are shorter than the midpoint of the blade is somewhat safe. I wouldn't do it that way, but at that size, under those conditions with those specifications, most would not have a problem. Your piece was much larger than his "eraser" pieces.
TSs are inherently dangerous.
Thank goodness your OK.
John
Frank:
Thank you for sharing your unfortunate experience and I wish you a speedy recovery and return to woodwork. Also, we should not underestimate the courage it takes to self-publish life's little mistakes.
The US-designed table saws that are presently on sale haven't fundamentally changed in over half a century and I include the Saw Stop. This lack of progress is due to a number of reasons, inter alia, light-handed regulation, traditional buyers, the competitive landscape.
Europe has, on the other hand, benefitted from much greater innovation in woodworking machinery. The lack of space requires users to do more with less, safety and worker health has benefited from greater regulation.
Compared to a "euro-slider", a US table saw looks positively medieval. While no design can eliminate the inherent dangers of any woodworking machine, they can certainly do much to mitigate the risks. A number of safety features that might have avoided your accident, which are incorporated into the design:
1. Riving knife - about 1/8" from the blade - this feature alone might have avoided your accident.
2. Adjustable height fence - in the lower position the fence is about 3/8" high leaving room on the right for your push stick and hands.
3. Stance - the typical table saw pretty much requires you to stand behind the blade with shoulders perpendicular to the blade and the torso directly in the line of fire should a kick-back occur. With a slider (when ripping with the fence) you stand to the left of the blade shoulders almost parallel to the blade so your torso is well out of the range of a kick back. Many will say that ripping on a slider is no different to a traditional table saw but I don't think that is correct if you take into account the issue of operator position and that you can clamp the work to the slider (see #4).
4. Slider - had your source piece been large enough, you could have dispensed with the fence and simply clamped your work piece to the slider and ripped off your 1" pieces.
5. Crown guard (that works) and integral dust collection - lungs are more valuable than fingers when push comes to shove. The crown guard reduces the risk of inattention and carelessness. (My neighbor cut of his thumb that way). So does the Saw Stop, BTW.
6. Blade brake - recently a new PM 2000 owner was complaining that it took some 40 seconds for the blade to come to a stop. Euro's have blades that bring the blade to rest in less than 2 seconds.
7. Cut-off micro-switch - any time the cabinet is open the machine is disabled.
Downsides:
Grooves, rabbets and dados are the biggest downside, though one can get riving knives that remain below the top of the blade.
You have received lots of excellent advice, but most of it is how to make an inherently unsafe piece of equipment less unsafe by attaching after-market accessories. Whereas, we need to let manufacturers know that safety is important and that we want it designed into the equipment. No wait, that won't work because the US market only considers the initial purchase cost.
Hastings
Excellent post Hastings. I have a Hammer slider and could not agree more with what you said. I really wish everybody could afford a euro-slider as the "US table saw looks positively medieval" as you stated.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Euro's have blades that bring the blade to rest in less than 2 seconds."
A tad more than that actually Hastings. It's 10 seconds, but that's still a lot less than a Powermatic cabinet saw I used to operate that coasted down for about three or five minutes; I don't recall exactly how long, but it took a long time. We sometimes used to bring it to a halt by holding a block of wood against the gradually slowing plate after we'd wasted a bit of time rolling up a smoke or something, ha, ha. There's one trick for the Health and Safety conscious amongst us to get excited about.
I worked with an old Wadkin bandsaw once that freewheeled for about seven or eight minutes. I'm not kidding, but this was about 20 years ago before the '10 seconds to a dead stop' regulation came into force over here. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
The European requirement is for the blade to stop in 10 seconds but all the Euro braking saws that I have seen stop in less than 2 seconds including mine.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Jerry, I too know saws that stop in less than two or three seconds, and I can say from experience that many saws here in Britain don't stop that fast.
I was correcting a small error in a statement made by Hastings. That some saws stop in two seconds, five seconds, or even seven is irrelevant to the legal requirement. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard:I didn't know the actual regulatory requirement, but my own experience with a Felder is about 2 seconds, so typically the manufacturers appear to have exceeded what the statute requires.The point is that we live in a world where off usually means off, so it is quite dangerous to have a naked blade spinning for some 40 seconds after the operator has mentally turned it off. Braking certainly reduces that risk but it adds cost that the US market seems unwilling to bear.Regards,Hastings
Richard,
A favorite trick in a shop where I used to work (back in the early 70's), was to discreetly hit the switch on the ancient 36" Crescent bandsaw as you were passing by, leaving the operator to wonder what happened to the power a minute or so later when the thing finally began to spin down.
Ray
Hastings,
Thank you for the kind words and for the very informative and well conceived post.
So many of the things you mention are not hard for the manufacturers to include in their designs.
Blade brake systems can be found on even low-end chop saws these days. If that technology can be included in an item that retails for $129. Why not put the proper version of that technology into a quality table saw?
A riving knife that sits just below the blade and is easily removed/replaced for a smaller diameter dado blade could easily be designed in as well. (I see Jet is offering one now on their cabinet saw - not sure if it is below blade height or how easily it is removed or replaced.)
Microswitch safety technology is widespread in furnaces and other items commonly manufactured. The cost of this stuff these days is pocket change.
Point is that some of the things you mentioned are not even economic or technical speed bumps in the design and manufacture process.
While sliders and effective overarm guards/dust systems are more costly and more of a technical challenge, they should at least be offered as options.
In my estimation, manufacturers could easily incorporate blade brake, riving knife and microswitch technology into a quality table saw in the range of $20 retail. Instead, they continue to make horribly clumsy splitter/guard assemblies that no one uses.
I suspect it all has something to do with the US legal system. It's not about making table saws safer here; it's about doing enough CYA to keep the litigation down (see the 14 page preface to most instruction manuals that have to warn you not to stand in water while grabbing a steel grounding rod while plugging in your saw.)
Frank
Why not just buy one that has those features ? There are a variety of saws for sale in the US that have those features.
Frank,
Spot 100% ON!
Been saying that for years. They won't do something till they are forced to. I think the beancounters have been busy far too long and management has been listening to them.
If we want to make even more money, put the safety on a new saw but don't make it available on our old stuff. As for buying a new saw, my take on that is it's like the government's approach: throw more money at it!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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