Replies

1. 
   kennedy136 | Mar 08, 2003 03:34am | #1

   Paul,

         I'm not sure how similar the mahogany you described is to Honduras Mahogany but I suspect it is not much different.  If so it is a joy to work with except for the fine dust produced by machining operations.  There is however a lot of difference in the weights of pieces of exactly the same size.  This is mostly due to the differenc between the heartwood and the outer wood.  The heartwood is extremely dense and as such it is heavy.  While it is somewhat harder than the outer wood and darker in color it still has great working characteristics.    I have built reproductions out of it as well as a big set of entry doors and sidelight/transom combination recently.  I think you would like working with it and if you try not to build pieces entirely out of heartwood then the weight shouldn't be an issue .  Good luck.  Sounds interesting.

                                                      Mark

1. 
   PaulReuter | Mar 11, 2003 03:44am | #2

   Cambara, Erisma uncinatum, sometimes known as jaboti, and angelim pedra, Hymenolabium excelsium, are not Hondorus mahogany, Sweetnia.  I am very familiar with honduras mahogany, a set of DR chairs for my daughters wedding present is my presant project.

   The two woods in question, I have been told, are mahoganies from South America.  I did the Google search and found a number of facts, but I was really hoping to find someone who had actually worked with the stuff.  The five pieces of Angelim pedra, 5/4x6 - S4S to 1"x5.5"x8' which I calculate will make one adirondak chair weigh 30 kilo-75lb.  Cambara is not quite so heavy.  They seem to machine well but may be hard on cutters.  So far, I've sawn on tablesaw, resawn on bandsaw, routed a 3/8" roundover, & sanded on a stationary beltsander.

   Any first-hand experience related information woul be appreciated.

   Paul

1. 
   kennedy136 | Mar 11, 2003 07:52am | #3

   Paul,

          Sorry dude, but I can't help you with those.  You might try addressing the post to Jon Arno (to make sure he sees it) as he is the wood guru around here.  He can probably help.

                                            Mark

2. 
   JeffKurtz | Mar 11, 2003 03:11pm | #4

   Did a bit of research on the web, and found the following:

   Angela, Pedra, and Cambara are the three daughters of Jaun and Maria Gonzales of Tucson, Arizona.  Their ages are, respectively, 12, 8, and 3 years.  As you suspected, Angela and Pedra spend far too much time playing video games and eating junk/fast food, so they are both far too heavy.  Cambara, being a very active child and a fussy eater, is a lightweight compared to the other two.

   Pedra has tested positive for peanut allergy, but would have to ingest a very large quantity - 2 lbs. or more - to attain a toxic level.  Angela and Pedro demonstrate mild sensitivity to pollen, mold spores, and pet dander.

   None of the three care to have splinters on their backsides, and request that you do a thorough job sanding.

   Jeff

1. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 11, 2003 04:07pm | #5

   Jeff, as for on-line research, I think we should impound your mouse.

   Mark, I've been following this thread, but haven't jumped in because Paul was looking for some feedback from woodworkers who've used these woods. Angelim and cambara are a couple of Spanish common names that get used for a wide variety of species...but if Paul has the correct Latin names for what he is working with; Hymenolobium is a genus of about a dozen species native to eastern South America. It's an extremely hard and heavy timber with good decay resistance. It's used mostly for heavy construction. I have samples of this wood, but really haven't worked with it.

   Erisma is a genus of about 20 species native mostly to the Amazon basin. A couple of them get to be huge trees, but their woods are very variable, both in terms of density and color. They tend to be coarse textured and rather resinous woods that sometimes present some finishing problems, i.e., hard to get the surface smooth, because it tends to fuzz up when sanded...and the resin seems to give it a tacky feel. I've only experimented with one of these species...and came to the quick conclusion it wasn't going to become one of my favorites.

   These timbers are not at all related to genuine mahogany (Swietenia.)

1. 
   kennedy136 | Mar 11, 2003 05:13pm | #6

   Jon,

          Thanks for jumping in, I have a feeling Paul is going to have a hard time finding someone who has worked with those species but hopefully he'll get lucky.  Either that or he can break new ground and then tell the rest of us how it goes. 

   On another note can you tell me why some pieces of mahogany which appear to have relatively staight grain tend to have little strips (almost like stripes) which tear out badly when planed by hand.  I don't have that problem on other woods,  even much harder species.  Other pieces seem to take a glass smooth finish.  I have noticed that the pieces in question do not even scrape well though it works better than planing.

                                         Mark

1. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 11, 2003 07:58pm | #7

   Mark, I suspect your problem relates to the fact that the genuine mahoganies tend to have interlocked grain. Hold a piece of the wood up to the light and pick a stripe in the grain that is darker than the bands on either side...then turn the wood end for end and look at the same stripe. If it's now lighter and more lustrous than the bands on either side, the reason is the wood has interlocked grain.

   We don't know for sure why some species, like mahogany and elm, produce interlocked grain...But basically, what happens is that the grain in all trees tends to grow in a gentle spiral up the trunk. The evolutionary purpose of this seems to be that it allows the tree to set branches (or feed roots) out anywhere around its 360 degrees of circumference at some point up or down the spiral...So, if the cambium layer is damaged on one side at some point on the trunk (...say the sunny side), the tree will still be able to branch off in that direction at some level.

   Some species maintain the same spiral direction throughout their lives, while others (for some unknown reason) switch the direction of the spiral every few years. Those that do alternate spiral direction produce a ribbon grain figure on the radially cut (quartersawn) surface. Ribbon grain is notoriously difficult to plane, because the plane has a tendency to lift or tear out the grain in the bands where the grain is rising up toward the approaching blade.

   Hope this helps. There are other tissue abnormalities that can cause tear out, but with mahogany, this is the most likely place to start.

1. 
   kennedy136 | Mar 12, 2003 01:02am | #8

   Jon,

          Thanks for the info,  I wish there was a solution to planing it but I haven't found one yet, other than maybe a norris style plane, with about a 55 degree bed angle, heavy blade, and a really tight mouth, and even then I doubt it.  Probably be a big improvement but not a total solution.  Have a good one.

                                                 Mark

2. 
   PaulReuter | Mar 12, 2003 01:50am | #9

   Jon,

   Thanks for your input, it is appreciated.  The angelim pedra I have is very heavy, with a course grain that varies in colour, almost as if light and dark wood were ground up & mixed together yet keeping the grain intact.  The pieces I was given have what appears to be worm tunnels through it but the worms excreted as they passed through & the tunnels are filled solid.  This is apparently a desirable feature, as in birdseye in maple.  Don't know yet how that affects the wood.  As I mentioned in an earlier post the wood is S4S but the surface has a definite grain (if that's the right word) to it - smooth in one direction, rough the other.  It does sand up very nicely but I don't know if it will stay that way if exposed to weather.  Splinters are very sharp & easy to pick up.  I did leave a couple in my skin for a couple days to see if there would be any kind of reaction but there didn't seem to be any.  They were difficult to dig out though.  I have done a variety of sample cuts with it so far but I haven't begun to build any prototypes.  The distributor has sold over 60k lineal ft. for decking so it seems to be a seller but if splinters are a problem, I don't think it would make very good chairs.

   The cambara is a uniform brownish-maroon colour with a grain kind of like what I know as philipine mahogany.  It is being sold as decking and flooring but looks like it would work well for furniture.  Doesn't have the sharpness of grain of the pedra.  A S4S piece 1" thick x3.5"x15" I resawed in half is twisting after a couple days so stability could be a problem but may be just due to the fact it hadn't been allowed to stabilize in my shop after coming in from a cold warehouse

   It appears I may be a bit of a pioneer here, so I'll continue to post any pertinent information I may come up with.

   Mark, those streaks of wild grain in swietenia can be seen in rough boards so you can watch out for them next time you buy.  On the other hand, if you like that sort of thing, I know where there is a pile of #1 com 7/4 planks that is loaded with the stuff for $4.10 CDN/bd.ft.

   Paul

1. 
   kennedy136 | Mar 12, 2003 04:40am | #10

   Paul,

          Thanks for the clarification and by all means let us know how things turn out.  As to the mahogany, I have found it  has pieces which have a fuzzy appearance(when rough sawn), and will almost always cause tearout.  However  a lot of pieces that appear to be "handplane friendly" turn out not to be.  Others take a glass smooth surface while the grain in both pieces looks identical.  There does not seem to be a 100 % reliable means of determining ahead of time what is going to happen.  Oh well,  if it was easy anybody could do it.  LOL

   have a good one,

                                   Mark

2. 
   jonsherryl | Mar 12, 2003 05:31am | #11

   Paul, your description of the angelim seems to fit, so I'm pretty sure your ID is correct. These Hymenolobium species sometimes produce a mottled figure. It looks something like snakewood (partridge wood) but it's seldom quite as attractive, because the contrast isn't as sharp. Not sure I buy the "worm hole - worm droppings" theory, at least not in its entirity. Angelim produces a gum that crystalizes in the cells in sort of a patchy pattern and/or forming streaks, depending upon how the wood is cut. The gum also tends to fill voids and it is one of the reasons the wood is so heavy.