Replies

1. 
   mepmalahon | May 06, 2007 12:32am | #1

   Oink Oink - hog them out.

2. 
   jackplane | May 06, 2007 02:55am | #2

   stack dado= easiest

   hand tools= much more difficult

   router/ shaper/other= somewhere in between

   ps. a trebuchet requires well-fitting joints as it works under tremendous stresses, joints best achieved by machine not handmade methods

   Expert since 10 am.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 5/5/2007 7:57 pm ET by jackplane

1. 
   BruceS | May 06, 2007 03:18am | #3

   Whoa !  I'll bet my shop that they didn't have power tools in Medieval times to make those joints. ;-)Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S. 

    

1. 
   jackplane | May 06, 2007 03:23am | #4

   True, Bruce.

   But I am a professional, and when I work time is money. For a hobbyist, it's an entirely different equation.Expert since 10 am.

1. 
   mwenz | May 06, 2007 05:14am | #5

   But I am a professional, and when I work time is money. For a hobbyist, it's an entirely different equation.

   Professional smessional.

   What you said was: "ps. a trebuchet requires well-fitting joints as it works under tremendous stresses, joints best achieved by machine not handmade methods..."

   And the counter-point made had to do with medievel construction and the lack of machinery. Which is entirely true and has nothing to do with your personal economics, work rationale or methods.

   I had a professional shop. Personally I used a mix of hand and power tools. Two of the employees largely used a different mix of hand/power tools based upon personal choice for the most part--but the goal was the same: get the work out the door as reasonably fast as possible.

   There isn't a joint that can be made via a machine-based operation which cannot be made as well by hand. But, it does often take longer so that part of your argument is true.

   Take care, Mike

1. 
   jackplane | May 06, 2007 05:53am | #6

   mwenz, shmenz

   Since you want to debate this further, I'll engage.

   A trebuchet is a machine, a weapon of old. Unlike an entertainment center or kitchen cabs, where the glue can sustain the forces required of it and overcome less than top quality joinery, a trebuchet needs to be very well built- at least in this case till class is over.

     Hand cut joints by nature allow a level of imprecision- machine cut joints do not. Once this variance is removed(hand work), a stronger machine results.

     Would Samuel Colt have only used old world craftsmen to build his famous Colt revolvers, all by hand? I think not. To compare regular hand and machine work to making a weapon like this by machine methods only, is apple v oranges comparison.Expert since 10 am.

2. 
   mwenz | May 06, 2007 06:57am | #7

   Ah now I didn't start messin' with your name--screen name or otherwise.

   You make it sound like it is impossible to mess up a joint with machinery. That it is impossible to have "a level of imprecision." Likewise, you make it sound like it is impossible to do good work by hand.

   There's a few years of proof, including the precious trebuchet under discussion, which would argue that hand work can be made to withstand the forces involved. Well, actually you say a "stronger" machine is/wold be the result of machine work in its making. Again, history and not I say you are indeed incorrect.

   I wasn't debating you per se. You made a dis-jointed arguement. A disconected one if you will. You stated that hand work, well, wouldn't work. Your lucid response when called on it by another person was that you are a professional and therefore your time is money. Great response--but it had nothing to do with the ascertation that hand work couldn't, and by extension didn't, result in a trebuchet which could withstand the forces required.

   Take care, Mike

   Edited 5/6/2007 12:19 am by mwenz

3. 
   jackplane | May 06, 2007 02:57pm | #9

   ok

    being a pro or not, and cutting joints by hand and machine, are, as you mention, un-related topics.

   I work faster with machinery. I suspect most do. It helps when making a living.

   "Again, history and not I, say you are indeed incorrect." Where did you pull this nonsense from?

   History has proven over and over that machinery yields superior results when building weaponry, from Roman times to today. Ever heard of Isaac Asimov, or read him?

   I never said it wouldn't work. I said with machine cut joints, it would work better.

   all the best,

   jp

    

   Expert since 10 am.

   Edited 5/6/2007 8:10 am ET by jackplane

4. 
   mwenz | May 06, 2007 04:25pm | #11

   "Again, history and not I, say you are indeed incorrect." Where did you pull this nonsense from?

   The nonesense is simple fact that these machines were made and used to great and terrible effect long before woodworking machinery was made.

   By the time woodworking machinery comes along, they are involved in other, even more great and terrible weapons. Then again, there were advances in every other type of discipline as well--metal working, munitions, etc.

   But when these machines were used in their hay-day, sorry, they were made by hand using even hand tools we would consider inferior to today's hand tools.

   Look, I could care less what the OP uses to make it with. But the ascertation that a machine cut joint is somehow inherently better than a hand cut one is false. Both require accuracy--but with accuracy in either method, built design for design, one cannot be "better" than the other. That is impossible.

   Depending on the scale of the trebuchet, supposing it is to or nearly to a scale which would have been used, I would argue that one cannot even make a seige engine such as a trebuchet using power tool--or certainly not power tools alone. It would be timber framing at a large scale. It would take longer hogging joints out by machines any of us--you included--would have at their disposal.

   My former neighbor has two or three of them. Consder them a "hobby" version. But they are still quite large. Only one is made of wood. But the scale of the lap joints and M&Ts on the thing is still at timber framing scale. At least for one his size. Without a large format slider, one would not have eeked out those joints on a TS. And a router would have taken forever. Glad someone never told him he couldn't make it "good enough" by hand because he has had a lot of fun tossing crap around the field.

   That a trebuchet may be made faster using machines [if small enough] is probable. That it might be easier is possible. But better? Nah. Both rely on accuracy and either *can* be as accurate as the other.

   Take care, Mike

2. 
   BruceS | May 07, 2007 03:33am | #12

   Not to be argumentative,  But what is your profession? Your member profile says your occupation is Arts/Entertainment.  I'am confused.

   Very true that Hand cut joints may take longer in some instances, But a tennon can be scarfed out and pared down pretty quickly and very accurately by hand.  And modern mortise machines can't match a chopped and pared mortise.Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S. 

    

1. 
   jackplane | May 07, 2007 06:42am | #13

   "And modern mortise machines can't match a chopped and pared mortise."

   What does that mean?? Speed? Accuracy? It makes no sense either way. Whatever mortise machine(s) you refer to are not at all the same machines found in industry in larger shops. Again speed and accuracy are superior on more expensive tooling. Or they wouldn't exist. Try looking at Italian machinery like SCMI instead of the junk that lines the aisles of HD and Lowe's.

   Expert since 10 am.

   Edited 5/6/2007 11:44 pm ET by jackplane

   Edited 5/7/2007 12:15 am ET by jackplane

2. 
   BruceS | May 07, 2007 04:23pm | #14

   I would be refering to those bench top models, Jet,Delta,Steel City,Record. And those units with a little tweeking, sharpening and carefull set up will make an acceptable mortice.  When pressed for time, I use a jig and plunge router with a spiral upcut for the mortices and the TS for the scarf and BS for the cheek cuts and pare to fit by hand(if needed) and round the tennon.  From the demo's I've seen, A Wood rat would be nice to have for speed and accuracy.

   Work Safe,  Count to 10 when your done for the day !!

   Bruce S. 

    

   Edited 5/7/2007 9:38 am ET by BruceS

3. 
   nikkiwood | May 06, 2007 09:03am | #8

   The first question is --- is this a big, serious trebuchet, or a small (desktop) demonstation model?

   ********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

4. 
   douglas2cats | May 06, 2007 03:01pm | #10

   Since you said there are a lot of these, I guess I'd go with the router just to speed things up. A clamped on edge guide and plunge router might be a lot easier than a table router though if these are big pieces. Course if you can talk your friend into ponying up for a dado blade, that would probably be even better. Even a wobble blade would probably work well enough for a project like this, but if you can convince him to buy a dado set you might as well convince him to get a good stack set:-) Size is still a consideration with a saw though. If they're big pieces, a circular saw to notch out the laps then clean up with a chisel might be easier.

   If you build it he will come.