I received this email from a fellow cabinet maker and buddy in Chicago. He’s been on his own for over five years now and was super busy until six months ago when his well went dry. He did some beautiful work in those five years: http://www.ccicustomfurniture.com/
“Well guy,
As it stands right now, I need to shut down my shop and go work for someone. The deal fell through with me renting space from my refinisher friends. The owner owner said no deal.
So it looks like I’m going to just sell the materials I have “On Hand” and move the rest of the stuff to my home in (City), spraybooth and all.
It sucks, but I have no other choice since I can’t afford to keep my doors open and I’m tired of being in debt. I’m back to being 7 grand in the hole to my landlord and I can’t go much further before he himself kicks me out.
I’ll still keep in contact with ya and if things ever improve and I end up back in business, I’ll let ya know.
Take care and good luck”
Replies
Geez.
And last I heard, the founder of Ikea is the richest man in the world.
Charlie
It's a sad day when a master craftsman building high end cabinetry, furniture, and millwork can only afford imported ready to assemble furniture for himself.
Years ago while snooping, and dreaming I stoped into Jaguar Cleveland and was stopped in my tracks. There was a BIG SIGN that said, " If you have to ask the price ! You can't afford it " I have my own small WW shop and only do special custom jobs. Being pensioned out with all the benefits and working part time at a WW Outlet Store I can WW more as a hobby. My greatest joy is helping the small "In business WW shops" Get the biggest bang for their buck so the profit margin is larger. We very often talk out a job and come up with a quicker and better way of doing a job. I hear all of the horror stories of cranky clients who are in debt up to their ears and want everything for nothing at the expence of the the poor craftsman they hired. I also get those clients who come in to purchase tools and router bits for those "hired craftsmen" who have no idea of reality. There again I work for the Craftsman and try to pick out the best product for his needs, And thats more often than not a tough sale.
There now I feel betterWork Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
If you have to ask the price... = Snob appealhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_appeals
Hate to see a self employeed person who has invested so much, have to throw in the towel. That's a tough decision to have to make. I'm struggling with it myself, although a different business. I wonder if he regrets it?
Regret trying to be self employed or having to close shop?
Closing the shop is the question.
Steve
Why doesn't FWW look into this and have an article. (It would be nice to see FWW climb back to its former status) I here stories all over the country. There is a lot of hard times out there. Always the few who make it Thankfully. But there is less and less chance of it nowdays. Can't say i'm gettin rich myself. Had one lady tell me she couldn't believe I wasn't making money hand over fist. (I made her a large gateleg table, hepplewhite) I said she could try and sell it. She started out with big expectaions. Has connections in DC. After a few weeks she is a lot less optimistic.There are four boxes to be used in defence of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order - Ed Howdershelt
He may regret it if he closes shop on Friday and the phone starts ringing off the hook Monday morning!
It's too bad. There have been a few guys posting on Knots recently about opening their own shops; they should talk to your friend.
Yes, me included.
molten,
From a look at his website it seems that your friend was doing good quality work. So I would like to ask, not out of morbid curiosity but because I am deeply concerned about the fate of small shops -
If he is capable of being a bit impartial about it now, what exactly was missing to make the business work? I think that there's as much to be learned by sharing the failures as there is from sharing the high points. I am not speaking of that last straw that broke the camel's back - it's not important. But rather, what was the weak point in the business all along? Any ideas?
In any case, wish him the best, and remember that the world is big and round and keeps on turning.
DR
Reading the e-mail it appears that he was renting space.One thing that kills off a business is monthly bills. Space rental bills come in if you work or not. Those electric bills come if you work or not. Had he been working out of a shop on his own property he might have had a different outcome.Of course, being quick in getting your work done lowers the price you can charge and brings in more business.Reading the e-mail it appears he was never doing well in the business. He was always on the edge of making money and losing money. That is a bad place to be.Businesses go under all the time.
Reading the e-mail it appears he was never doing well in the business. He was always on the edge of making money and losing money. That is a bad place to be.Making money is a skill as well as making furniture. Many small business people neglect to do the due diligence on their bids to assure profitability. When you figure out the price by actually thoroughly figuring out everything involved, come up with a figure that shocks you and then quote less than your own figured price out of fear of not getting the job you hurt yourself and your business. In the end your suppliers get paid, your employees or subs get paid, the landlord gets his and you take home nothing or not enough to your family. The skill is figuring the real price, the profit (on top), and delivering the message with the knowledge that if you dont get the job you dont need it. Too many jobs with too low a profit margin mean you will be starting a new career soon, or getting a divorce, or moving to a new location or a host of other "learning opportunities". I have done all of this (except the divorce) and make the effort now to "do the right thing" and bring home the bacon.
Good questions. I'll let him settle down a few weeks then I'll pick his brain.
Hey Molten, tell your buddy I feel bad for him. It's tough, man.
Lee
Molten, it's hard to close an unsuccessful business. I've been there and done that, and in my case it was a furniture design and making business.
In many ways I exuded success. I had, and still have respect from many in the woodworking community. I'm damn good at what I do. I can rattle out joinery and use techniques faster than most people can even think of. I can design and fit to customer's requirements.
Everything that I could do to maximise public awareness that I could think of I did. I networked incessantly. I tried different approaches including being the cheapest provider to the most exclusive and most expensive.
Business for me after nearly eight years in Houston basically went tits-up. The phone stopped ringing and I had no cash flow to carry me through yet another downturn at the end of 2002, and the phone just never rang again.
That's when I had to get out and do something else-- so I started looking for jobs and now I teach the subject at a collee in GB.
It's ironic in a way. A failed businessman is teaching new entrants to the trade how to do it. Well, I ended up in something akin to a $100,000 financial hole, and I'll probably be paying for it for the rest of my life.
What's missing from all the business gurus' gung-ho presentations is the phrase, "And if you get lucky you'll do alright."
If you don't get a wee bit of luck you tend to be stuffed. Slainte.
RJFurniture
Sgain,
I suspect that small business is as much a trade as furniture making. I have a brother who seems to have a nose for small business (nursery, boarding kennels, earth moving, cat boarding (highest price in the city), farming, and now branding horses)
The only one that has 'failed' was the nursery, I think because he jumped the gun on locating near a large new housing development.
The point is that he talks about small business the way you do about woodwork, sort of an expert offhand 'this is how you do this, and its all pretty much commonsense, dont get carried away'. Yet when you pick his brains he has sorted out two or three things he has to get right, and focusses on those - they were not that obvious to me.
Talking to him is one reason I have kept this as a hobby - I have a pretty fair idea about how I would go withut either the trade skills or the small business nose.
I'm sorry to hear of another "brother" going down. Of course there are always the lucky few that make it. For the rest of us are the sad facts are that Joe and Jane Consumer wouldn't know real value and craftsmanship if it hit them in the face and aren't too concerned with leaving behind any heirlooms for their little yuppie puppies. They go to Ikea and Ethan Allen and buy finished "product" for less than our cost of second rate materials. Unfortunately furniture making will have to stay a sideline until I can retire. Sh*t. Meanwhile I keep looking for a real (not trendy yuppie or artsy fartsy as seen on HGTV) work/live loft in SoCal so I can avoid the shop overhead.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Two responses to your post.
One, it's not really that the consumer doesn't know the difference between high quality and low quality. That might or might not be true, but it's not the point. The point is that the consumer doesn't care. The consumer today wants the look of high quality, and if you can give her that look with stained MDF it's perfectly okay. The consumer's not looking for items to hand down to her heirs. She's trying to make her house look nice to impress her friends at the party this weekend. She probably assumes that if she moves she'll buy everything all over again. For the typical consumer who leases a car every three years and replaces her kitchen every seven years and buys a new computer every two years and a new cell phone every year, why would anyone expect her to want furniture that isn't disposable? This is the broad marketplace I'm talking about; obviously there are exceptions. But if you think consumers want long-lasting, high-quality products just walk through a typical suburban mall and you'll probably change your mind in a hurry.
Two, the prices furniture stores charge are unbelievably low. My wife and I were out last weekend looking for design inspiration for the kitchen table I'm about to build (not much design inspiration in the furniture stores, by the way, but I'm so poor at design I take what inspiration I can get), and I just couldn't believe that even the "good" stores can sell furniture so cheap. Yes, when you look underneath it's put together like crap and the materials aren't the best, but it's still amazing. The manufacturer has to buy the raw materials, pay someone to put it together, pay for the equipment and the plant, pay for shipping, insurance, and all the other overhead, then sell it to the retailer at a price low enough for the retailer to make money (50% of the retail cost?) after all its rent and other overhead. And after all that, the retail cost is less than it will cost me to buy the wood. I don't know how they do it, but the idea of trying to compete with that would send shivers down my spine if I were thinking about getting into the business.
"The point is that the consumer doesn't care."
I mostly agree, but if they knew the difference they might care.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
It's always sad to see someone have to close down something they have put so much effort into. I had to close a business down once, and it was a bitter experience. Other than that, I've been one of the fortunate ones. Since I've been on my own doing custom work, I've never lacked for business, and though I may be one of the more knowledgeable finishers here, I am far from the best craftsman. My work pleases my customers more than it pleases me, most of the time.The biggest consideration in business is that you have to first provide a product or service that somebody is willing to pay for. If you don't do that, you won't have any sales, and you'll never get started. Second, you have to produce the product or service at a cost that allows you to make money at the prices you can get. If you are making a product that people will buy, but not at a price that allows you to make money, you either have to add value to your product, find a new market, or you have to find a way to make your product at a lower cost. Otherwise, you fail.The individual craftsperson is always going to be a high cost producer. As such, you have to find a market that will pay you what you need to make a living. That means you can't just pick the kind of work you want to do; your choices are limited by your abilities, your costs, and the market's desires. Sometimes they just don't match up.In short, if you want to make a living in woodworking, business skills are more important than woodworking skills, and if you don't develop good business skills, you won't last long. That's just an inescapapble fact of life. It's a complete waste of time to lament the predilections of the market; you might as well complain about the weather. You're not going to change it. You can only seek out opportunities and ezploit them.It doesn't hurt to remember that furniture and home decor markets are driven by fashion, and that most buying decisions are driven by emotions and fantsy. Quality sells best if people relate to it emotionally. Rationality is a poor marketing strategy.I will say that even though I'm making great money, I'm considering other lines of work myself. After fifteen years of custom work,and almost 35 years of woodworking for a living, the challenge and fun is not so much there any more, and the job has just become a lot of hard work for not much joy. Either I have to find something more challenging and suitably lucrative, or else I need to find another line of work. I imagine I am feeling the ame thing that a lot of people with "regular" jobs feel, but it's new for me. MIchael R
I probably shouldn't post, but here goes,.....The statement in your post "After fifteen years of custom work,and almost 35 years of woodworking for a living, the challenge and fun is not so much there any more, and the job has just become a lot of hard work for not much joy." is fascinating to me and is a portal to something I've been thinking about for a long time. The upshot of it is this: The woodworking that professionals do that post on this forum seems to be a completely different activity than the woodworking that I do because there is little or no joy in what they are doing. Not if you're reading the tenor of the posts that you normally see from the pros. It seems like there's some kind of fire that is lost when you have to do woodworking to put bread on the table.I can't imagine that. I have a passion for woodworking and it is pure joy to me. I would say that just about every day of my life I do something or read something that has to do with learning something new in woodworking. I really can't get enough of it. When I pass a significant milestone - like, for instance, the first raised panels I did with hand tools only - after reading Mike Dunbar's Oct 2001 FWW article - I gotta tell you, it was a pure adrenaline rush. The first succesful saw filing - same thing. The first carved shell I did - same thing. Now when you read things by the pros on here, they're jaded, they're heartbroken, they're weary - are they doing anything like what I'm doing? Completely different activity, and not much of the news about it seems to be very good.There's one guy that posts on here - claims to be a pro - I think most people will recognize him - he's generally nasty and smarmy to beginners, especially with hand tool questions - I read his posts and try to figure out what motivates him. I think it is being recognized by guys like Sgian and Grindinger that rings his bell. It is the phenomenon of: 'I'll be really nasty and draw attention to myself and be recognized as an expert' - I think that is what he craves. But if you look at the overall tenor of his posts, he's got to be one of the most unhappy freakin' woodworkers that ever walked across the face of the planet. If that's what being a professional custom woodworker is, I'm sure as hell glad I'm not one.I'm sorry the business is so tough. I really am. I think it's a shame when people don't get paid commensurate with what their skill is. And I'm sorry that the guy's business went under. I know that it is one of the hardest things in the world for a person to to turn the key on and lock the door for the last time on a business that he/she built.
Comments welcome.
The woodworking that professionals do that post on this forum seems to be a completely different activity than the woodworking that I do because there is little or no joy in what they are doing.
Well, it's not that bad. For 35 years, there was nothing else I would rather have been doing, and you'll have to admit that's a pretty good run. Actually I started making things out of wood for money almost 50 years ago when I was in fifth grade, but I didn't start full time until about 1970. But those 80+ hour weeks and the constant grind of deadlines and pleasing customers gets old. Through all those years I have been constantly learning and facing new challenges. At this point, the work I am doing is no longer engaging or challenging, and the kind of work I would like to do doesn't pay enough, so I have some decisions to make.
But make no mistake, making a living at woodworking is WORK. The work is hard and the hours tend to be long, and you are not working to please yourself, but to please a customer. That, and the pressure of time and money, are the differences between amateur and pro, in my experience.
If I had my druthers, I'd be making 18th century reproductions and designing and building furniture in the vocabulary of Ruhlmann and the other great French Deco designers, but I can't do that and maintain the income that I need -- at least not for several years, and I can't count on having all that many productive years left.
Add to that the fact that I can make a 6 figure income any number of ways with a lot less effort and still have time for doing fine work as an avocation, and there is some food for thought..........
It aint all roses, but it ain't all thorns, either. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done pretty much the same thing, only better.
Michael R
Well best of luck to you and I hope you get to make the things you really want to make. Turn me around if you see me going down the obviously wrong path.
Thanks for the good wishes. I haven't made any decisions yet - just considering options.
Turn me around if you see me going down the obviously wrong path.
Sure thing. One thing I still have plenty of are opinions. Some of them even make sense.
M
Ed, your post touched me and really made me think. Just to toss this aside, cstan would be a curmudgeon no matter what he did.I want to believe the sense you're getting from the pros here is based upon frustration with the business end of things and the frustration that comes from not being able to do what you want to do. What pros want to do is hole up in their comfy workshops and tinker away at building great furniture. The frustration arises from deadlines, inability to find decent work, lousy pay and high overhead. These are different things. I want to believe that those doing this for a living still find the glee in the sawdust that you do. I hope I come across as still having that glee. If not I need to change my tone.Thanks for your post, Ed.LeeMontanaFest
Theanks for your many informative writings, Lee. The "Dirty Dozen" was quite helpful to me and I intend to have a go at the "Egg and Dart molding with two gouges" pretty soon. Best of luck with your business, Montanafest, etc. Take care, Ed
Dear Ed (and everyone else),
Your post was very thought-provoking and heartfelt. I wouldn't want to criticize other woodworkers' state of mind, I can only bring my own experiences:
I've been doing it for a living more or less for 35 years. Have been in and out of financial difficulties and gone through various business arrangements (alone, with partners, etc) The basic joy of woodworking is still there after all these years, but it tends to sometimes get covered over by the necessities of running a business. After all, to make it work you have to wear at least 5 different hats every day -
the CEO of the company, with a long strategic view of where you are going.
the production manager, purchasing, demanding efficient work techniques, etc.
the PR director, networking, promoting your image, your reputation.
the salesman, making the sales, dealing with client needs, follow-ups.
the financial manager, cash flow problems, dealing with the bank, etc.
oh yeah, also the craftsman...
Everybody understands that the craftsman part needs to be constantly honed, worked on, developed. Unfortunately many people do not understand (or choose to ignore) that every other aspect needs to be worked on exactly the same. If I am not reasonably professional in every one of these areas it will eventually drag me down unless I am very very lucky.
Here's the curious part that refers to what you were saying - those other areas of the business can become really interesting as well, if I put myself to it seriously. Even the ones I intuitively dislike doing. In any case, this has been my own experience. But I see friends who ignore the broader aspects of the business, and just keep going with a stubborn "make it and they will come" attitude. (I partly agree, they will come, but somebody better be ready to sell tickets when they arrive). And then they end up resenting the woodworking because it hasn't worked out the way they dreamed. If I spend part of my day wearing all the other hats I need to wear, and trying to do it well, then the woodworking part stays new and interesting too.
It's more complex than I can put in a few words, but it seems to work that way for me. It's as if you need to create a wholesome, well-rounded environment for the woodworking part to continue to thrive in the long run. Does this make sense?
good luck to everyone whose still struggling,
DR
Etremely well put. It seems to me that way to many people in here expect the craft to sell itself. Its all about sales and marketing. You can make the best furniture piece in the world but even Sam Maloof had to do things to keep the fact that he produced products of high quality in the forefront of peoples minds. The old saying goes, " the problems start when the orders come in". This is where the management skills branch off from the craftsman. Buying wood at a good price and managing inventory is easy for the craftsman. The hard part is the selling. So many people hate selling...hate the negative connotation that comes from the idea that they are having to "push" their product on to someone. Show me a craftsman who doesn't appreciate the selling part of business and Ill show you a guy with a warehouse full of product and no customers. The fact is this; I can make a mediocre product but I can sell and you can make a great product and cant sell..............who is going to have the best cash flow? Dont get lost in the romance, its all about generating money if you are in this for a business and not a hobby.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
CHERRYJOHN wrote
<The fact is this; I can make a mediocre product but I can sell and you can make a great product and cant sell..............who is going to have the best cash flow? Dont get lost in the romance, its all about generating money if you are in this for a business and not a hobby.>The judgement of "mediocre" or "great doesnt" really come into it. Selling is what makes it happen, the cash flow that is. Learn to sell and make the product you want. Most people refuse to learn to sell or mind the necessary business issues involved.
Exactly my point. Selling is everything. Selling generates cash flow which is the life blood of any business.
Always remember Salesmens credo " Never let the truth get in the way of a good story". The sign outside my shop says
Wicked Decent Woodworks
Rock Solid Furniture
Rock Bottom Prices
I'd give em' away but my wife wont let me
When my wife saw that she said " Thats not true". She isnt into the sales game.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I can understand why someone might say that "Selling is everything". Because it's the side that most often gets neglected by craftspeople. But in fact, like I tried to point out, there are half a dozen different aspects that all need to be attended to in a professional manner. Case in point - I know of a custom shop who opened in a great location, showed some very nice stuff and took orders like there was no tomorrow. In 2 years he was forced to close down because he didn't have the management skills to produce everything he sold - long delays, too many call-backs for repairs, etc. It all just slipped through his fingers because he couldn't manage the production.
But I agree that 9 times out of 10 it's the sales that is the difficult part. Or to be more precise, it is actually the marketing and PR side that is weakest. This is really not the same as selling, which is what goes on once someone walks in the door. The biggest problem is how to get the right message out to the right people.
DR
Just BTW, I'm in the process of writing (a book?) about the challenges of a WW business. Maybe in a few years I'll have something to show for all the mistakes I've made along the way.
"Maybe in a few years I'll have something to show for all the mistakes I've made along the way."I try to teach my kids that it is best to learn from the mistakes of others and second best to learn from your own.Good luck with the writing.Dorthy Parker said, "Writing is the application of one's Butt to one's seat." From my own experience, she was right. You just have to sit there and do it.Another great quote on writing by Gene Fowler (don't know who he was) But he said, "Writing is easy, all you have to do is stare at a blank sheet of paper unitl drops of blood form on your forehead."And don't forget Ernest Hemingway's comment, "The first draft of anything is s**t."Robert Silverberg has five rules for writers. I'll see if I can track them down... Best,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Not Silverberg, Heinlein - both great science fiction writers.Robert Heinlein's Five Rules for WritingRule One:
You Must WriteRule Two:
Finish What Your StartRule Three:
You Must Refrain From Rewriting, Except to Editorial OrderRule Four:
You Must Put Your Story on the MarketRule Five:
You Must Keep it on the Market until it has Sold
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I don't know wheather to encouraged or discouraged by this thread. I am looking at starting a woodworking business. PART TIME to start. I am making use if the Small Business Association web site http://www.sba.gov and the local classes they offer to help. I bought Dan Ramseys Woodworkers Guide to Pricing your Work, and am talking to my state agencys for what I need to know. All are helpful and making me aware of all of the Non woodworking ascpects to this insanity I am considering. All the junk and hoops are enough to make an old man cry. But what I wanted to stress is that I am doing alot of business learning, setting up a business plan and doing market research to find out what I can make and be able to sell.
Part of the cap on expenses will be working out of my garage and not a rented shop. (I will rent it to myself and deduct from taxes)
I figure if I spend 18-20hrs (10 on my Fri off and 3/ day 3 days a week) per week, if all goes well I may be able to have a profit of 12 - 16K per year within the first year. If that goes well and the business expands I may have to consider my options at that point - raise prices, increase production or go full time
This will leave me 1 full day with my family - Sat - my only weekend day off anyway and 3 weekday nights. Might even get some help from my 12 year old some and give him some extra spending money as a "shop helper", get some nice talks in and a bit of "quality" time and get him learning some skills at the same time.
Anyway, If all goes well, I will be setting up business in about 2 - 3 months.1 - measure the board twice
2 - cut it once
3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go
4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Rick,
I can't presume to stand in your shoes or tell you what's right. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest 2 simple things, you take them or leave them as you see fit:
1. Don't set a financial goal for the first year. Anything more than just breaking even will be OK. It is much more important in the long run that you give time to networking, finding the right suppliers, etc., all the various aspects of starting the business right, than to be troubled by trying to meet a goal that was arbitrarily (sorry, but it's probably true) set.
2. Once you start, don't waste your energy evaluating the results all the time. Set a time frame for this "experiment" (I would say 2 years, at least), and do the jobs at hand as best you can without drawing conclusions. On the day that the time is up you will probably just know what is the right thing to do next. If it's not clear on that day, lock yourself in the shop, unplug the phone, and sit there until it is.
best of luck, keep us posted,
DR
I will keep you posted on the results of the grand experiment. I am looking at a niche market and my research would indicate a POSSIBLE profit of the $12,000 - $16,000 per year. That is why I am looking into the project. I realize that it make take me the first year to hit a break even point if I am lucky. My plan is to to invest time into the networking and selling and marketing as well and to reevaluate my position every 6 months. If I am not even close to break even at 1 year and the orders are not showing a steady increase at that point I will probably take my loss and go play with my marbles elsewhere. The upside to this venture is that I have almost all of the tools I need. My major startup expenses will be licenses, maybe a separate business phone and answering system, forms, business cards and wood.
I estimate a $3,000 supply of wood for my initial test run and the rest at $26/month for business phone, $75 for forms and cards and $400 for misc.
The product I will be making is a small unit, I can build one in about 1 hr for one model and 2 hrs for the other. Both will take a couple of days for all of the finishing to be done and dry. Model 1 has a retail price of $75 and Model 2 has a Retail price of $135 materials will be about $30 per unit for model 1 and $35 for model 2. I am also considering an option for custom units. Custom units would use less or more material but have a higher shop rate, so I could make a unit that is half size and cost 2/3 price of full size as an example. Until I have this up and running I do not want to make a fool of myself and say what I am making or suddenly find increased competition. Right now, in my area there is almost no other competition for this item locally and the internet sells item for about this price but has steep shipping costs, making mine significantly less expensive and more readily available for inspection, purchase and maybe even delivery.
I am not normally a long winded blow hard, but I have to admit I am a bit psyched about this project. My family is not real well off (combined income is $68,000 / year) and we have a 12 year old son that eats up money as well, so if I wanted to try something like this I had to find something that would not bankrupt us to get going.
We have been saving up for 2 years to get the $4,000 I hope will get me started.
As stated, I am NOT quitting my day job at this time.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Very interesting. Wish you the best and would like to hear how things progress.You're going exactly the opposite direction I'm going. I have decided to go completely upscale and will try to avoid projects less than 3K.But cash flow looks to be better with your plan. Much easier to spend $75 than 3K. Just a lot of management required for the number of sales you will need to be viable.Not being contrary at all, just am interested in how you are approaching this.Best regards.
No problem at all, I am just a mostly paycheck to paycheck guy trying to make a few extra bucks doing what he likes rather than getting by doing what pays the bills.
I will keep posted as things go along. Good luck on your venture. I am hoping mine works out to where I do it full time and and maybe add in some finer, higher end stuff as well1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Not so different.I felt like I was chasing my tail after a while when I went solo. Lots of work but little profit. And I was taking jobs (kitchens) that I don't necessarily want in order to pay the bills. I was seeing a point where my body of work wouldn't necessarily reflect my interest or what I think I'm better at. I'm a better designer than technician.Decided to find part-time non-woodworking job to pay the rent and focus on building higher end. I'm actually excited when I get to be in the shop again. Something that had become to feel like drudgery. I have too much working life left to hate my work. Have a couple of jobs left to finish up and then I can start building some spec stuff.Best regards, look forward to hearing your progress. Feel free to contact me via e-mail.
Ed,
I suppose I'm one of those jaded heartbroken and weary guys you wrote about. I'm entering my 30th yr of self employment as a maker of reproduction furniture. Is the passion gone? Well, not really. But it isn't the same as when my buddies and I used to get together after work and compare notes on the latest book to come out on period tools or techniques, then rush back to the shop to try them out.
I've been married for 34 yrs to the same woman. She is the love of my life. I'm devoted to her. Is my passion for her the same as it was when we were first married? I'd be totally exhausted if it were!!
I suppose you've heard the story about the young bull and the old bull? Young bull says to his older chum, "Hey look at all those young heifers down there in that field! Let's run down there, break down the fence and breed us one of 'em!!"
The old bull looks over at him. "Naw...Let's WALK down there, go through the gate, and then we'll breed 'em all."
Just because experience has tempered the excitement, doesn't mean that the pleasure of the craft is lessened. Just my opinion.
Regards,
Ray
Good to hear from you, Ray, glad you are doing well. Yes I heard many variations of the joke in the USN, often with very colorful language not usable here. Regards, EdPS (for all): Was reading the four articles under "The Business of Woodworking" in FWW #32, Jan/ Feb 1982 - a good argument for the "nothing new under the sun," philosophy advocates - the first of those four articles - the first year diary of a startup Woodworking business - is classic and as good as some of the material that I saw in MBA coursework.
"The point is that the consumer doesn't care."
I mostly agree, but if they knew the difference they might care.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
I totally agree with you on this. There is so much massed produced junk out there it is patheic and with more and more junk coming from China furniture repair is the way to go. People refuse to throw this junk away until it is no longer salvagable by anybody and then brag that its the best piece of furniture they ever bought. It really amazes me.
And the consumer is getting what they want at a price point they want. And not caring if it has to be replaced in 5 years.
The result though is something I recently read - Recycling is way up across the country, but the amount going into landfills is remaining the same due to thing like $49 DVD players, TV's, stereos... that have a 3-5 yr life span, rather than a 10-15+ yr lifespan that they can/should have but which would increase the price.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Makes sense. Reminds me an old joke where the CEO of Sony had a good laugh saying Japan couldn't take the US with Zero's so we got 'em with 8 Tracks. Too bad furniture crossed over from a durable good to a disposable fad/fashion item. There's a whole generation that won't inherit any family heirlooms, just the revolving charge account debt from new "Curb" furniture. The sad part is all that wasted hardwood sliced into veneer just rotting away in the landfill, instead of it continuing as a useful object for somebody's greatgrandchilren :(John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
This low end mass produced furniture doesn't provide a good opportunity for a repair business. If you bought a table for $119 it doesn't make sense to spend $150 to fix it--or even $90.
To avoid the dismemberment of my well being and hapiness, I evolved a simple rule early in life - never make the things you love to do your job. I observed many friends who did make their obsession their job and all have come to loathe what once they loved, in one way or another. I know only one lucky exception (which proves the rule).
The nature of work in the modern world is that it is the selling of one's labour as a commodity, like any other. Where capitalism has ceased to be that once useful engine that drove innovation, improvement and betterment, it has now become a monoculture which brooks no mode of existence other than producer/consumer/profiteer. As such, it has no place for uneconomic commodities, including many kinds of specialised manual skill for which it has found a cheaper alternative. It has become Socio-economic Darwinism of the very nastiest kind.
Like others who woodwork for a hobby, I sold my soul to a modern workplace and reaped a good pension in exchange for all those years of frsutration at the frothing machinations of money-crazed organisation men in suits. 9 to 5 left 5 to 9 free to be myself, during which time I became many things - racing cyclist, glider pilot, lover and woodworker amongst others. I am very glad none of these wonderful pursuits was ever polluted by economic necessity.
Lataxe
...never make the things you love to do your job....
I've never understood this. I shouldn't find a way to get paid to do something I like, because later I might not like it anymore? Is this the thinking you followed when selecting a spouse, a place to live, or any other important thing in your life?
I don't mean to start an argument, but I have seen this thought expressed frequently, and it has always baffled me. Maybe you could explain it further?
Jon
I agree.
I tell people all the time. "I love my job, I just don't really like to work." I am proud of what I do for a living. Although I earn less than my computer trade friends, they all envy (to a certain degree) my career choice. Maybe I'm deluding myself. Hah hah.
I love turning on the lights in the shop in the "morning" (around 10:00). I love looking at the assembled parts and knowing I made something that will be around for a long time, and that no one else could have done it. (Again I am likely deluding myself)
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I tell people all the time. "I love my job, I just don't really like to work." I am proud of what I do for a living. Although I earn less than my computer trade friends, they all envy (to a certain degree) my career choice.
I love looking at the assembled parts and knowing I made something that will be around for a long time
I work in the computer trade in a way (I'm an engineer), and this is something I never feel in my job. I'm lucky if anything I work on actually results in any kind of product; more likely, it'll be sh*tcanned and written off as a loss. Even worse, the work I do is such a small part of it all that it's really hard to see how my work is meaningful at all. Lastly, while your friends may make more money, that might be very temporary. Companies lay off employees whenever their stock dips or they decide to outsource, and in my profession, getting a new job seems to usually involve packing up and moving across the country for a new one (this probably explains why so many tech people work in Silicon Valley despite its ridiculous housing prices; at least they don't have to move every time they change jobs). So don't be too envious of your friends.
Couple of years ago (during a drought) my brother asked for some help building a dam. After a week driving a dozer 18hours a day between us (big dam) he said we should consider doing this for a business.
His rationale "you could set up shop and make your little boxes, then when you needed to eat we could put in a couple of dams"
I think that most of the issue is that people recognise that if they do it for a living they might not be woodworking anymore - thay would be businessmen. As a point of honesty here - I have doubts about both wood skills and business skills being up to commercial delivery pressure. In current mode I can delay delivery while I solve problems and fix mistakes.
david
My question was wider than just "why not work wood for a living?"
Lataxe was saying that you shouldn't make a living at anything you like to do, for fear of losing the joy in it. I just don't really get it.
How much should you dislike something before you decide to spend half your conscious hours engaged in it?
True - I couldn't bear not enjoying (on balance) what I do for a living.
I guess my point was not to refute previous comments but to say why I choose not to take the next step. Woodworking is one a few things I do for the real pleasure they provide, most of them are highly skilled careers in their own right (music, horses) although I don't pretend that I execute to a professional standard. So what happens if I do one of these for work? I have to go and start another amateur career for recreation - too much effort, although I am now old enough to be convincing in Veterans' rugby.
Dave
As others said you have to wear many hats, and frequently they contradict each other. Something that I think helps me stay content in this field is that not only do I enjoy working in the shop, but I also enjoy the working with the client and making their visions come to life. I enjoy helping the client figure out what they want, and I even like building things for other people. For me there is no greater compliment then when a customer pays me to do wood working.
MikePardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
There's nothing at all wrong with making a living from what you love, and I believe there's enough of us in this forum who are doing it to prove that it's possible. It does require a huge attitude change, because running a business involves wearing at least 6 different hats. If you resent having to wear those other hats, learning skills that have nothing to do with woodworking, then you're better off keeping it a hobby.
DR
Jon,
If you can find a way to do what you love, make it pay and avoid becoming some sort of slave to the many parasites that prey on the self-employed these days, then that would be a Wonderful Thing.
I know there are some people who manage this; but nearly all the self-employed people I know have become bound to taxmen, banks, various bureaucrats, exploitative suppliers and even rich customers who seduce them into doing what the customer, not they, want - all the nonsense attached to the modern market.
They find their long days devoted to the books and telephone, not the woodwork or whatever. They must please many, many others, not themselves. This seems to be a much more common phenomenon than it was even just 20 years ago.
Some of my hobbies and "loves" might have been turned into a job. I never took the risk, as the payoff is not to lose those things you love to the demands of a harsh economic and bureaucratic regime. You may prefer to take the risk and might even win out. I hope so and will make a small offering to the gods in support. :-)
And, yes, in a way this principle does apply to other life choices. I will not grasp for a thing that will put me into penury or require me to sacrifice basic well-being, just for a super-glam wife (with high expectations), huge house (with enormous mortgage), 160mph chromebomb (a car that may maim me) or the pleasures of gambling (I want to keep my money, fingers and toes).
As a wise man said, be careful what you ask for as you might get it (and all the bad stuff we tend to ignore that comes with it).
Lataxe, a Free Pensioner with hobbies intact
Lataxe,
Amen, brother. One of your countrymen, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, said in regard to writing for a living, "The two harshest taskmasters I ever worked for, are named 'Bread' and 'Cheese' ." The same may apply in regards to any form of self-employment, it seems to me. Even woodworking, believe it or not. The ever-present NEED to produce, and get paid, can take the edge off of the fun of the most satisfying occupation. Especially if baby needs new shoes, or pablum. Unfortunately. by the time I realized that (about 35 yrs), it was too late for me to learn to do anything else. It's, perhaps, good I'm a slow learner, otherwise I'd have had to learn another trade!
"Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention." My Way-
Cheers,
Ray Pine
The danger of turning your hobby into a business is that you'll run your business like it was still a hobby.
If you are going to build stand-alone furniture professionally the first thing you have to do is divorce yourself from the notion that the department store or furniture specialty store down the street is your competition. When a prospect compares your quote to the department store kindly thank them and move on to the next prospect.
Your target market will buy their unupholstered furniture from antique dealers and custom furnituremakers. It's a small market, but it does exist.
You also have to be able to build 'better' than the stuff found in department stores. If you can't then remediate your skills or keep it as a hobby.
Edited 6/9/2006 11:11 am ET by charlesstanford
Steve,
Spot on. And it's not just the inexpensive furniture, it is the attitude of the folks who buy it. I had two experiences last week: I had been called by a couple to look at some repairs, finish dings from a move. When I got to the home, the furniture was all modern, factory stuff, mostly "Mediterranean style"-- veneers, ink specks, gold painted moldings. Well, a close friend had provided the referral, so I quoted an estimate on half a dozen pieces. They agreed to the estimate. When I gave them an estimated delivery date, I could tell they weren't thrilled with having to wait that long, but they said go ahead. Last week I got an irate call from the guy demanding his furniture as it was two days beyond my time frame of a couple weeks. I delivered the three pieces I'd taken to the shop, the next day. When I placed them in the house, the wife was nit-picking what I thought to be a pretty good touch-up job, "Well it looks better, but I can still see it." In describing a touch up over complete refinishing, I'd told her just that; "You know where the damage is, so you'll see that it's been repaired. The average passerby won't" Okay. He's not happy that I took too long, she's not happy that it's not as good as new. I told them I was sorry that I couldn't provide them with satisfactory work, and that there was no charge for it. Recommended they look for someone else to do the rest of the repairs. Now, I've done conservation work for MUSEUMS who were all satisfied with what I do. My clientele includes people who have financed their retirement by selling furniture that I've worked on. It wasn't the workmanship, it was the mindset of the clients.
Day before yesterday, a couple came to the shop to take delivery of a pair of tables I'd built them. They seemed happy with the pieces, paid for them, and took them home. Today, I had an email from the wife, thanking me again, and praising the workmanship, which she said they'd been examining since getting home, and saying that it was a pleasure to be able to have something that had been made just for them, not manufactured overseas.
Unfortunately, those customers are harder and harder to find. There was much more appreciation for quality work of all kinds, 30 yrs ago when I started doing this. Houses weren't built with a brick veneer on just their fronts, and vinyl sided chimneys. People expect to, even want to, throw things away after a few years, so they can have new things, even their wives/husbands. Who wants a piece of furniture to hand down to children, when those kids are from your third wife's second marriage?
Well, it's been a rough year for me, and my attitude obviously need an adjustment, so I'll stop my rant.
Ray Pine
I guess being a woodworker in the US is becomming a guy who works at WalMart selling rubberwood tablesWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I guess being a woodworker in the US is becoming a guy who works at WalMart selling rubberwood tables.
Now cherryjohn, you know better than that.
If it's rubber wood, why don't the dents come out of my table that are put there by my kids using silverware?
They vulcanize the rubber before shipment. Since Star Trek went away have you asked yourself where all those Vulcans went? Thats right! They went to work for Wal Mart in China, vulcanizing rubber wood for shipment. I read it in the National Star, so it has to be true.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
If it's rubber wood, why don't the dents come out of my table that are put there by my kids using silverware?
It could be worse. It could be made out of Zebrawood or purple heart. That would pi$$ off alot of zebras and purples.
But really folks, woodworking can be the lowest paying, easiest job or the highest paying, hardest job you ever had. It's up to you to pick which one. Like today, Its raining outside so I took the morning off but I know theirs a job to be done so I'll work until 11 tonite. oopps the suns out I gotta go......
are you saying you have the oldest woodworking shop in N.H.? I come from Concord and I've never heard of it.
well my shop is the Capt Timothy Roberts house built in Rochester in 1729. So its probably the oldest building used as a wood working shop. In addition my shop was used as a wood working shop as far back as 1850..I have the original bench that was here and its still functions well. I use it all the time. So my shop, with thoise 2 cnsiderations, could be called the oldest wood working shop in NH......just not the oldest continous wood working shop in NH. never let the exact truth get in the way of a good story. Come by some time and I'll show you my other antique bench made about 1790-1810.
John MosconeWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I'd like to see it sometime-don't live in N.H. anymore-family is still there. I also don't get up nawth as often as I'd like to but when I do head back I'll give you a call. Presently reading 1776-gives good perspective on what it was like for tradesman back then.
Basic marketing teaches the 4 P's: Product, Price, Placement, Promotion. Go down the list:
Product: was it any better / worse than what you might find at HD or from the Amish? Looked pretty nice to me, but how about the Price relative to competitors?
I'd venture to guess the ship went down with the Placement / Promotion aspect. Did he have a booth at the local kitchen/bath show? High end cabinetry is going to get sold through word of mouth lots of times. Did he piss off some clients by leaving dust in their houses or by not saying thank you or sending a christmas card? Hell, if I did someone's kitchen for $20k, I'd be sending them turkeys and hams at every holiday. Give your clients an excuse to talk about you to their friends.
A simple observation from the website was that the theme seemed to be more about what goes into the product than what the customer was going to get from the product. It might have helped if he explained to customers WHY they needed his services. For example, he's got that really nice cabinet under the stairs. It looks nice, but a piece like that needs some more emphasis: "you need [name] Custom Woodworks because we can custom fit [furniture piece] into [space] and make your house feel bigger and less cluttered..."
That said, his work looks nice and it's a shame he went under. I'll blame the Chinese (for no logical reason).
Two responses to your post.
One, it's not really that the consumer doesn't know the difference between high quality and low quality. That might or might not be true, but it's not the point. The point is that the consumer doesn't care. The consumer today wants the look of high quality, and if you can give her that look with stained MDF it's perfectly okay. The consumer's not looking for items to hand down to her heirs. She's trying to make her house look nice to impress her friends at the party this weekend. She probably assumes that if she moves she'll buy everything all over again. For the typical consumer who leases a car every three years and replaces her kitchen every seven years and buys a new computer every two years and a new cell phone every year, why would anyone expect her to want furniture that isn't disposable? This is the broad marketplace I'm talking about; obviously there are exceptions. But if you think consumers want long-lasting, high-quality products just walk through a typical suburban mall and you'll probably change your mind in a hurry.
Two, the prices furniture stores charge are unbelievably low. My wife and I were out last weekend looking for design inspiration for the kitchen table I'm about to build (not much design inspiration in the furniture stores, by the way, but I'm so poor at design I take what inspiration I can get), and I just couldn't believe that even the "good" stores can sell furniture so cheap. Yes, when you look underneath it's put together like crap and the materials aren't the best, but it's still amazing. The manufacturer has to buy the raw materials, pay someone to put it together, pay for the equipment and the plant, pay for shipping, insurance, and all the other overhead, then sell it to the retailer at a price low enough for the retailer to make money (50% of the retail cost?) after all its rent and other overhead. And after all that, the retail cost is less than it will cost me to buy the wood. I don't know how they do it, but the idea of trying to compete with that would send shivers down my spine if I were thinking about getting into the business.
This post got me thinking.... Why try to compete against the mass-produced, cheaply made, easily assembled IKEAs of the world? When you go into business as a craftsman/artisan, what exactly are you selling? Sure the furniture is what is being built, but what you are making is ART. Perhaps we should consider the art business model, which is make a few custom pieces that are not 'knock-off, machine made crap', and sell them to the high-end clientele for a lot of money. People pay for custom art, why should it be any different for custom woodworking?
" Sure the furniture is what is being built, but what you are making is ART. Perhaps we should consider the art business model, which is make a few custom pieces that are not 'knock-off, machine made crap', and sell them to the high-end clientele for a lot of money. People pay for custom art, why should it be any different for custom woodworking?"
The problem is the machine made crap devalues ALL furniture, even if it's considered art. There are some high end, hand made production furniture manufacturers. They have been successful by creating a brand name. That's something people are willing to pay for. It's the same reason people buy BMW instead of Ford. Now if you pay a no name craftsman to build your $15,000 hutch, it will not have the same affect on your friends as the $15,000 Thos Moser hutch.
Richard,
It's sad to hear about another shop closing and your $100K hole, some make it, some don't. I'm passionate about making furniture, but it will probably remain only a hobby, forever, as I have a good career.
Sometimes I think living high in the corporate world compares to prostitution, as you do work you don't enjoy and play the politics necessary to become successful at earning well.
Just my opinion for what it's worth, but if I look at the business in this post closing, after looking at the web site, I believe it's the lack of clear differentiation between what is sold commercially to the public and true custom furniture. Nothing wrong with his work and the quality looks good, as well his promotional literature. But there is not enough distinction between the styles available at a furniture store and his portfolio.
Before I make a piece, I always go to a few large furniture outlets and look at what's available. When looking at the CNC carvings which appear hand made and the fancy finishes, as well as the quality of display, then the prices, which compares to my lumber only, I know I won't be able to compete, unless I make something which is very different and is noticed as such.
Normal cabinetry (kitchens, it's a $7 bilion market in the US) will be produced soon, far East and sold back here as components at prices no one can compare with.
There are a few members here, who post pieces which really differentiate from the norm and I'm sure they are making reasonable money.
Talk about a rough business. I just retired from my job at the end of January. Twenty nine years selling toilet paper amongst other prods. We were the largest in the world and still had competition. I was only as good as my last month. Quotas. however much you sell , your company wants more. Really, selling toilet paper not rocket science. Life goes on . Keep a good positive spirit. Things can always be worse. Anyway my best wishes to you and dont give up.
[email protected]
T.O.
It may be that doing fine woodworking as a successful business is going the way of the dinosaur. I went the prostitution route in a big corporation. Retired and built a shop on a rural property in SW Australia. Now I spent hours & hours lovingly making furniture that pleases me. And I sell to people who want this sort original "heirloom" type of thing. Customers come mainly by word-of-mouth. But if this was my only source of income, I'd go broke. I pick up the newspaper each day and see pages of furniture advertisements for cabinets etc that are absolutely mind bogglingly cheap. Mostly imports from Indonesia and Malaysia where they must bang this stuff out from looted forests and with armies of people working for a buck a day. Someone who wants the functionality of a cabinet rather than care about how well it's been made - is going to go the cheap route. But a few customers see quality and will pay for it. That's who I "work" for. But I couldn't run a successful business just doing that. There are a few lucky ones who can. Just a few.Richard
Richard, Out of curiosity, where do you live in SW Australia? I was an exchange pilot with the RAN for a couple years and spent quite a bit of time in Albany and Perth. Matter of fact we flew across the country a couple times to be in Albany and work with some RAN submarines off the coast. (We were based in Nowra, NSW). Guess you have access to all the jarrah you could want? - I have a coffee table made out of that fine timber. Take care, Ed
Ed, I'm located in Margaret River, which is about 200 miles SW of Perth - on the SW corner of the state. Which is also about 200 miles west of Albany. Yes, I have access to lots of Jarrah. A beautiful, rich wood, and great to work with.When were you in Albany?regards,Richard
Several times in 1991 and 1992. Staying at the old "Dog Rock Hotel," as I recall. Lots of nice old antique furniture to be found around that area, as I recall, as it was an old whaling outpost, older than Perth, even. Take care, Ed
Several decades ago I closed my own shop, it wasn't from a lack of business nor was it a case of overhead eating into the profits, rather it was a case of poor cash flow and an inability to see a practical way to enhance the cashflow issue to a manageable level.. In short I needed to grow to the point where several people worked for me and I would have been reduced to a manager.
To compete I needed to dramtically reduce my cost per item and yet as long as I bought on an as needed basis my per unit costs were too expensive to compete.. I could only afford to buy modest amount of materials at a time and the big shops all had much larger discounts than I could obtain due to their volume..
In the end I went back to doing that which has always been profitable for me and gave up the idea that I could make my living running my own shop my way.. Now I treat it as a hobby and run it exactly as I wish..
I've been on my own for years so it comes as no suprise to hear about another shop going down. I'm lucky. Got a few bucks behind me, a house thats tripled in value, and a wife making 80K a year. Even with all that going for me I'm getting ready to shut down even though I made pretty good $$$ last year. Won't do kitchens, am sick of restoring/refinishing and am tired of people wanting to pay zip for high quality furniture. (plus all the hours of marketing, finance etc.) People will think nothing of dropping 2 bills on dinner one night and flush it away the next morning, but will laugh at you charging not much more for an end table that will be around for generations. At least my house (yeah, and a few others) is full of a wide variety of custom stuff, and yeah, I've had a blast. So hang in there Lee, cstan, Millard and others. Best of luck to all of you. Jimmy.
Edited 4/12/2005 9:44 pm ET by EXHIBITOR
I guess we're all at fault for the market for durable goods & furnishings, wanting a product for less money & getting an unbelievable deal, only so we can dispose of the item when we no longer want it.
Recently I was visiting a friend in their new house, newly furnished with a lot of what appeared to be high end furniture..mostly fauxed MDF from Asian origins once you got up to it... Will this last for a lifetime or be handed down to their heirs? I doubt it. I'm waiting to see what happens when they have the first incident of water damage to their fine pieces.
The sad fact is that this is what we strive for as consumers, and what keeps our economy running. If I can get a product to market cheaper, faster, and that meets the demands of the consumer, I will sell a lot of it. If I need to accomplish this by bringing it in from offshore, then I will for the profitability. Why are tools becoming disposable instead of repairable? Because we demand a better price. This is one way the manufacturer's meet our demands.
Running a cabinet shop is no different than running a metal working business, general contracting, service business, or manufacturing business. You still have your overhead to account for, sales that need to be maintained, market research, and you still need to have enough of a reserve to fall back on when things slow down. If you are inattentive to any of these items in any industry, you will likely have a failing business, or remain a very poor ( or indebted ) craftsman.
The clientele is there for the level of product being produced. Clients are willing to pay once they realize what you are putting into your product- heart, soul, attention to detail. Once the word of mouth starts spreading, you will have people knocking at your door. Fail to return calls, keep in touch with clients, drop quality of your work to meet production, and your work load & orders will decline proportionately.
perhaps your friend has an alternative to closing down his shop. he can do one of a couple things here. he can possibly split the space hes in now, or he can find another woodworker who dosent have a large tool collection and rent out his shop with the use of his tools. if hes a solo operation he can ony use one machine at a time. so charging someone else to use them might help pay for them. the trick is to find someone honest enough to give a key to.
best of luck to him
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
I had a dialogue with a shop owner on another forum. This dialogue started with a post of mine on proportions and how they mattered, and one should learn about them, consider, etc... The shop owner wrote back on a personal side - not the public - basically dismissing all such talk and saying all that mattered was the money, money, money. Whatever someone wanted, it was his job to make it and take their money. Sell them what they want at all costs. His website had several examples where proportion was obviously ignored.
I responded, as is my stubborn manner, that I thought there had to be more than grubbing constantly for the next buck - that it wouldn't be desirable to be in such a position constantly. He got angry and mocking, pretty much went off the deep end with dialogue centered on making money, and dissing the dandies that just want pretty. He is now out of business. It appears that this shop owner set an attitude ("fight starvation at all costs") and defended it until the death, instead of developing and growing to accommodate a larger and better business view.
I guess the point is that all the ducks have to be in a row, and kept in said row, for a business to succeed. And that is still only part of the picture - don't compete with any form of mass production, learn to be honest with yourself as much as everyone else, and on and on. Ignoring one or two facets of the whole is often lethal.
In all the failures that I have been close to, there is always at least one fatal flaw that grew to overwhelm the now nearsighted owner(s) and took them out, unawares. Yet the stated cause of failure is almost always external (market forces, price cutting, people too cheap, etc.) at first, then years later the former owner can see a bit more clearly and better identifies the fatal flaws.
Just random observations on a good thread.
Dave S
Amen.
DR
Thanks. That was good commentary and advice.
Hello all,
I think about all the negativity and nay-saying spouted by craftsmen a lot. I think that there are many more facets to these stories than "I was buisy, but the clients wouln't pay so now I am bust." Wood working is a trade or craft. managing a woodworking buisness is a........ buisness. I have several good friends who have long time established (25 to 50 years in buisness) and they are strugling to this day. However when I walk their shop I can see why. Ineffecient set up and layout combined with a too large shop is the number one buisness killer that I see. I can tell that these shops have just continued to add machines in a half hazzard way never really looking at the flow of work.
Another big stumbling step for shops is that they are afraid to pay their help enough. Once a hand attains complete profeciency they inevetably leave for more money or to start their own shop. I say that they are affraid to pay more because they fear that paying more will increase their overhead too much.... but retraining new hands every 3 to 5 years is a lot worse. Along these lines most shops do not pay enough attention to the comfort and safety of the employees. Unheated or uncooled shops with poor dust collection, poor lighting and NO safety features on the machines is the norm. Smaller more effecient shops where the workers are well cared for would make all tthe difference in the world.
Another factor is us. Trades people are notoriously ill-tempered and impatient towards customers. When you get 3 or 4 pro ww'ers together it inevitably turns into a customer bashing session. We tend to spend our first few years learning about the trade and then figure that we are experts and need no more help. Forget about learning sales and customer relations, or even new design trends. Something else that I hesitate to bring up is Alcoholism and addiction. It is very common in the trades, even ours. Out of the 5 or 6 serious wood workers I know well (they all have shops with more than 4 employees) they ALL were or are alcoholics. And I didn't meet them in bars. The landscape of woodworking shops is littered with failed buisnesses, and businessmen. Yet every day I see new shops start up and quickly gain a full load of work. So it dosen't add up...... the work is out there, there are many clients with money in hand hoping to find a good shop to help complete their home and they are willing to pay a fair price, yet shops go bust left and right.
On the bright side I know a few shops who are very sucessfull and manage the BUSINESS very well. I suspect that you all know some of those shops as well. Look at why they are successfull. Are they better craftsmen, unlikely because that has little to do with it. If you are unhappy with the state of your business find what it lacks that the other guys have. If you can't find it then go to Small Business Development Center or some other non-profit org helping small businesses be more successfull. One common feature that all the successfull shop owners I know have is a smile. If you are lacking that then you should seriously look at revamping your business.
Mike
Another factor is us. Trades people are notoriously ill-tempered and impatient towards customers. When you get 3 or 4 pro ww'ers together it inevitably turns into a customer bashing session. We tend to spend our first few years learning about the trade and then figure that we are experts and need no more help. Forget about learning sales and customer relations, or even new design trends.
This I have seen and been part of, customer bashing that is. Then I got to thinking that one customer you take care of tells 4 to 6 more people about how good of a job you did. Now this customer is your salesman, promoting your business and YOU. While I worked in retail a few years ago I went to a seminar by Tom Hopkins and it did me a world of good. Just go to one seminar or a community college course and it will help with your salemanship and the business.
Right on about the seminar. I know that it sounds cheezey, but they work. All of a sudden you hear a completely different perspective on customer relationships. I have had my share of difficult customers, and I have partaked in a little customer bashing as well. However, I NEVER bring that attitude to a customer... even when things are not going smoothly. This dosen't mean that I am a push over either. That is the tight rope walk between running a business and managing a client friendly enviroment. Some of the best craftsmen are never, ever going to be good people's people. Those guys would be better served working for builders or contracting a sales person. There are sales people who sale jobs for you and only take a comision. These guys are typically very effective and will bring you a lot of business.
MIke
Mike,
I couldn't agree with you more. I've been in the business for a long, long time, and managed to survive.
I suspect that almost all of us come to owning businesses from a love of WW, and the hardest self-makeover that is required is to realize that we are now businessmen first, and WWers second. If I'm not regularly asking myself what is missing, what needs to be improved, then the business is slipping through my fingers. The answers are hardly ever in the domain of the quality of production itself. There's a lot of help out there for every aspect - marketing, management, etc. All we need to do is wake up to the fact that we need it.
Bravo for your words,
DR
This attitude of " I love to do this so why not do it for money" is not uncommon. I know of a guy who is a pool player. Pretty good one too. His desire was to own a pool room but he had a vision that his room was going to be a players room; a room where the good shooters would all come to shoot. He was smart enough to include a bar in this felt covered dream of his but therein lies his problem. What he ended up with is a bar that has pool tables, not the other way around. His pool room makes money but after less than 2 years its for sale because he couldnt adapt to the market demand for a bar with pool tables. He could have been successfull too but he did no advertising and the spot had poor visability from the road. A smart guy would have turned this lemon into lemonade but he wants to turn it into a peach. The lesson is let your market determine what you will or wont be. Im not saying just jump in and drift with the current , you do need a focus on where you want to end up but dont have blinders on. In the end what matters is are you doing what you like and are you, at least, keeping the wolves from the door. Its a business, dont get lost in the romance.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I expected a backlash for my statements, it is interesting to hear yall have had simular experiences.
Mike
Another thing I haven't seen posted by anyone is that dealing with customers is unlike anything else. Someone can be the best woodworker or business person in the history of the world but if they don't know how to deal with customers, they probably won't be in business for long. Qualifying the customer, agreeing on how to meet their expectations and actually doing it is the key. Failing any of these is a very bad thing for the longevity of the business. Add personality issues and the business is on the rocket sled to he!!.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I have to say that, for a post that started with such a sad subject, this has been at once THE most interesting, informative, depressing, inspiring and thought provoking discussion I've seen in the entire Knots forum.
So many good points have been made and the message I'm hearing the clearest is that it's the business side of the craft that most often determines success or failure (which is probably true in any occupation). I don't own my own business and only worked professionally in the field for a short time. I've always wanted to start a small custom shop, but every time I considered it, I asked myself, "do I have the business smarts to be successful?" The answer was always no. Perhaps it's a fear of the challenge, or just an honest appraisal of what my skills are -- I don't know. I'm sure that smart, talented guys go belly up all the time due to circumstances beyond their control, but I'm also sure that many more fail because they have the woodworking skills, but lack the business smarts and discipline required for success, which is what many of you have said.
Anyway, thanks to all for a really interesting discussion -- hope it continues for a while.
When I look at Creative Custom Interiors website, the first thing that comes to mind is what was his niche? He obviously makes nice furniture but it seems to me he's trying to be everything to everybody instead of carving a niche in the marketplace. Looking at the site, he makes everything from bedroom furniture to mantels to kitchen cabinets, then he has a section about selling rosettes to contractors and DIYer's. Then he has the tagline Wood-Formica-Solid Wood. What does that mean and why is he trying to sell things to DIYer's? He really doesn't show a product line with pricing. Just examples of former jobs. As a potential customer, I'd be confused as to what his specialty is.
Most successful businesses carve a niche for themselves that gives them an identity in the marketplace. Look at Longaberger. He stuck with making hand woven baskets and grew his product line from that platform. I'm sure he knew how to build tables and desks but he didn't. He didn't even bother coopering buckets. He stuck with what people recognized him for and grew his business into a $300 million dollar empire.
Here's all you need to know to succeed:
Stay away from prospects with champagne taste and a beer pocketbook.
Post this over your bench, in your day planner, post it somewhere so you can read it each and every time you meet with a new prospect.
charles,
Amen, brother!
Ray Pine
Sorry for the late reply, I didn't realize this post was still alive!"Stay away from prospects with champagne taste and a beer pocketbook."That is important and I intend to engrave it and have it mounted in my shop, perhaps next to my other quote from Theo Roosevelt: "Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell 'em, 'Certainly I can!' Then get busy and find out how to do it."But I must ask you; how do YOU find these prospects with champagne taste AND pocketbooks???
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