I have been putting off asking this question… I apologize in advance if this is too much of a newbie question to ask, please dont feel the need to insult me for asking the following question…
I built a maple picture frame for the wiff, and also two mahogney utensil holders… Went to Rockler, and the asst manager informed me of her LOVE for gel stains… so we brought home a pint of brown mahogney gel stain… Put the gel stain on per instructions(two – three coats), and then put three different types of finish on the different pieces.. 1 piece received Minwax Spray Polyurethane, 1 piece received Minwax wipe on polyurethane, and last piece received Natural Danish Oil.
Heres the question, I had put multiple coats of the gel stain on these pieces, and after the coats of poly/danish oil, I lightly wet sanded with 400 grit sandpaper to prepare for the next coat of the respective finishes… the wet sanding seems to have taken off half the color from the pieces…. I feel like I put good solid coats of stain on the pieces and gave each coat 24 hours drying time.. I didnt go crazy in wet sanding, I was just lightly sanding them, and I feel like VERY lightly sanding them…. so I dont understand why these pieces lost half their color?!? do I now need to go back and restain them? isnt the polyurethane/danish oil going to retard the pieces from taking more stain? I guess I can play with it.. but this has me scratching my head in confusion…
different types of wood, different types of finishes, same old gel stain…. maybe I got a bad batch of stain or something…. I kept the temperature in the 50-70’s the whole time I was completing the stain/finish/drying time.. 60’s-70’s for application, and no less than 55 degrees for curing time….
so without getting insulted for being a newb, anyone have any ideas if this is normal or whether I did something wrong?
Replies
Hey Grouchie,
Sorry to hear about that. When you say that half of the color has worn off, it makes me think that you haven't actually done that. It's been my experience that when performing this step, the color tends to lighten but doesn't really disappear. The sanding marks make it appear to be lighter and less rich in color. It has always seemed to come back when top coating. Can you do a scrap and test it before you top coat? This may help you decide.
As far as your question about danish oil and poly making it impossible to add more stain, that is true of the poly as it seals the surface. The danish oil can be "stained over" if you use a "tinted" danish oil, like Watco mahogany for example. The oil doesn't actually seal the surface and adding more oil is possible.
Try the test piece, first, before doing anything else. Good luck!
Kell
I went for the second coat of poly on one of the utensil holders... the color remained half of what it was originally.. just seems really weird to me...
gonna play with the danish oil picture frame prolly tonite... I made the mistake of applying gel stain before the danish oil. So, I had actually hidden a lot of the birdseye maple with the gel stain.... BUT, now that half my color is gone from the stain, the birdseye has made a comeback.... will try to do some test areas... I suppose since this happened on three seperate pieces using two different woods I can treat a scrap piece and see what happens.... chances should be pretty good that the scrap will show the same problem....
any other suggestions or ideas as to what I did wrong?
Well, you're not going to like this answer, but since you're young and immortal, you'll have time to get over it. IMHO, what you did wrong was start with the wrong wood. If you wanted your untensil holders to be dark, you should have started with a dark wood.
And the maple is completely hopeless. If you color it with a pigment stain, it obscures the grain. If you color it with a dye stain, it's hard to get maple to accept enough stain.
You can color oak and some other woods with ammonia or rust and vinegar. You can color mahogany with some vile potassium compound. Other than that, I'd say start with a wood you like the color of.
Kell, I haven't tried gels yet so don't have any specific to add to what's already been said, but will offer the following advice: Always try it on a test piece first!!! The explanation points are reflective of my experience when I haven't followed this advice myself. It's just too, too discouraging to put all that time into building a project, to have it ruined when the finish goes haywire.
The project I'm in the middle of now will involve using a gel stain. I'll keep an eye on this thread. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
welp, I have been talking to quite a few people, and the end thought seems to be that gel stain is not a penetrating stain.. May be old news to some of you, but I am starting to really hate the directions these companies put on cans... just not very thorough.. they dont list ingredients(in the case of wipe on polyurethane).. they dont make any statements that they are non-penetrating vs penetrating.. and they dont make any statements as to any good preperations needed...
so far, I have bought the following book and read it pretty heavily over the past week(just bought the book after my wipe on polyurethane mishap) http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/070501.asp only mention of gel stains in this book is in a recipe that calls for using danish oil FIRST, and then putting the gel stain over the danish oil, and then a different type of finish on top of it all... the recipe was very explicit that danish oil will highlight and protect the figure in your piece because gel stains have a tendency to hide grain patterns....
as for trial and error on my mistakes that started this thread.. Last eve, I proceeded to lay another coat of gel stain on one of the utensil holders, and even though this piece had a coat of polyurethane, the stain seems to have taken hold(must mean I sanded through my poly coat)... I will prolly do multiple thick coats of normal polyurethane and then maybe go for a slight scuffing with either 0000 steel wool or some higher grit wet/dry paper.
thanks for all the help, let me know if you have other recommendations or comments please!
I'd recommend a different book for your library. "Best of" books are seldom good ones to begin understanding a major process. There's a relatively new book out there that has been highly recommended, and I can't remember the name, but in lieu of that one, let me recommend Jeff Jewitt's Great Wood Finishes.
He cover the basics in a very organized manner, with plenty of excellent illustrations, including color plates of how different finishes appear on the same woods. He provides several methods of dealing with blotch-prone woods such as cherry, and there are several specific finishing prodedures classified as to complexity.
Jeff also has an excellent site, with articles and a forum:http://www.homesteadfinishing.com
I'll try to find the name of that other book -- more extensive, scientific approach. EDIT: Found It -- it's Bob Flexner's book, "Understanding Wood Finishing." Sounds like an in-depth presentation of the different finishes, how they work together (and sometimes don't). Probably the next book for my lib.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 3/20/2003 12:15:18 PM ET by forestgirl
someone sent me an email with jeff jewitts site.. I havent checked that out yet... Gretchen50 recommended the bob flexner book... I been waiting to find another book to get me over the $25.00 free shipping thang from amazon.. I will check and see if jeff's book is on amazon and check his website out more thoroughly...
thanks for the info....
Just a quick suggestion. Whenever I get a call for a stained finish, I never sand immediately after the stain coat. I wait until I've got one or two coats of sealing coat on the piece before taking paper to it. That helps from lifting out the stain and causing a thin color.
Scott
I know nothing 'bout the properties of maple and stain, but I think Scott's on target with his advice about waiting. --In my limited experience, at least, oil base stains take a lot longer to cure than the "24 hours" recommended by the manufacturer, and sanding/varnishing too fast will bleed or remove a lot of color. The best results I ever had were on a couple of chairs (alder) that I stained and let wait two months before varnishing. They didn't bleed out at all.". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."
Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township
Look at Michael Dresdner's "The New Wood Finishing Book" at Amazon. That should get you over the "free shipping limit". :-)
-M.
Grouchie - I used gel (cherry) for the first time on maple with okay results but it took a lot or applications until I got just the right look. Maple is really tough to take a finish other than natural. And, it can be very uneven. I recall reading something in FW, at least I think it was FA, where they suggested an application of a watered-down coat of hideglue and then applying the gel stain. You might check it out.
Doug
FRAZEE makes a shading stain (custom color matched to your sample) with aolcohol, ester, keytone, and lots of outher toxic stuff. It's the only stain that would penetrate any hard maple project I've finished. Just keep it stirred up 'cause the pigments sink to the bottom of da can. Keeps getn' darker ea. coat and can be lightened w/ laquer thinner.
I dont know every thing, I only think I do. Triggerski.
PS I learn at least three things every time I visit this place. THANKS ALL!
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