Replies

1. 
   joinerswork | Mar 23, 2010 06:39pm | #1

   Hi dusty.

   Looks like an English piece to me.  The style is Queen Anne/ Early Georgian. 1710-1730 or so--if it is original.

   Keep in mind the old adage that, if all the furniture that purports to be "18th century English" were returned to that country, the island would sink into the sea under all the weight.

   On the plus side, the fully rounded knuckle joint on the swing leg looks good.  Later iterations of this joint were frequently less highly finished, just rectangular fingers, not rounded and fitted.  On the other hand, the lack of oak as a secondary wood here is a bit suspicious.  Mahogany is expensive to be used here, and oak would wear better as well.

   I don't see any obvious planer or other machine marks in the interior or underside- you should look closely for these.  Of course, they could have been sanded away. Any machine sander marks in the cutout on the fly (swinging) rail?  Or is there a spokeshave or chisel chatter?

   The interior, and the underside of the top, seems awfully highly finished, I would not expect quite this slick a treatment.  But it may have been aggressively refinished.  And the Brits were a lot more anal than we 'muricuns about finishing up little seen areas like this, too.

   Look for hand tool marks elsewhere- layout lines around the inside of the leg to apron joints, scribe marks or saw kerfs (they were often kerfed in) around the hinges, plane tracks under the top  etc.

   Speaking of hinges, the card-table flap hinges appear to have steel screws.  That is a good sign, period brass screws were rare even in brass hinges.  Have you removed a screw to see how old they are?  Older (19th cent) screws will have blunt tips, modern gimlet pointed screws didn't appear til around the turn of the 20th century.  Period 18th cent screws were of course hand made, and while the makers did their best to make them alike, they are not.  In addition to the blunt (squared-off) points,you'll see some variation in their  size, and the slots are generally very narrow, and come to a vee at their bottoms, not a flat-bottomed U like modern ones, and you'll see that they aren't perfectly centered in the heads.. Do the iron hinges show any signs of being hand forged?  Or do they say "Stanley" , "General" or "true value" ;-))

   I'd like to have seen a shrinkage crack or two in that compartment bottom, you can see how the tops' overhang is not the same all round, but less in front, due to their shrinkage.  This is typical of English pieces that are transplanted to our drier climate.  Why didn't the bottom shrink accordingly?  Maybe it did, split to an unacceptable extent, and was replaced.

   I have a similar piece that purports to be somewhat earlier than yours, but it is a fake.  I got it when its owner did not want to spend what it would take for a restoration, and sold it to me instead.  After a little looking, and some restoration work, I decided it is relatively new, but at first glance, it would fool ya. Nice faded surface,  and dark oak secondary, great shrinkage.  But the hinges are obviously new, and they are the only ones ever on the piece... The planer marks on the top, under the veneer, were a giveaway too.

   Ray  

   
1. 
   9619 | Mar 23, 2010 09:07pm | #2

   Ray,

   I can't believe you looked under the veneer and found the planer marks.   I remember when that table was made by a really talented student in the "intro to woodworking" class at Woodcraft.   I told the guy not to use the planer, because someday someone would look under the veneer and check for machine marks.     Some people just don't listen.  But this guy had talent.  That was his first piece.  He took a second course in "pen turning".  Then he went over to England and opened his own studio.  I can't remember his name -- something like "Chucksworth". 

   You should take it to Antiques Roadshow and see how the Twins do with it.   Of couse, those hinges which say "Brusso" are a bit of a giveaway.

   Mel

1. 
   joinerswork | Mar 24, 2010 08:24am | #4

   Hi Mel,

   Well, I didn't take the veneer loose just to see what was under it.  That flap top was badly warped, due to it's being veneered on one side, and having a leather panel on the other (unbalanced construction) and it warped rather badly when it came to the states.  I soaked the veneer banding and leather off the inside surface of the top, kerfed the warped top, pressed it flat, wedged the kerfs, reveneered the top,( with a veneer under the leather this time, not just a border), and re applied the leather.  Whew! No wonder the old owner didn't want to pay for it.

   In the process of all this, the machine marks were apparent.  There aren't any where they would show, only the modern screws in the hinges, and on the slide pulls. Of course they don't show either, to the casual viewer.

   Ray

2. 
   oldusty | Mar 23, 2010 10:21pm | #3

   Injun rider ,

                     Well , i need to take a closer look at  the hinges and a screw or two and hunt for any makers tools marks.

                       The bottom does have some shrinkage cracks in one end , I will  take a few more pics in the A.M. and see if i can dial in on a few areas .

      One thing I noticed was two of the legs look darker almost like Rosewood .

                    Thank you Ray for your time and expertise

                                    regards  , dusty

1. 
   joinerswork | Mar 24, 2010 08:36am | #5

   dusty,

   While you are looking at the legs, put a pair of calipers on them.  Old work is frequently out of round, as the air dry stock from which they were made will have dried out since it was made; the turned elements will be slightly oval in section.  Like what happened to the tops, only less so.  If made recently from kiln dried stuff, the turnings will be round in section.

   Hand turned stuff from a treadle or great wheel lathe will sometimes have subtle grooves or undulations that can be felt (sometimes seen) as you run your hand along the length of the legs. Sometimes these are removed during refinishing. The presence- and direction- of sanding scratches in areas that would be hard to access out of the lathe can also be an indication of newer construction- sandpaper was not a common item in 18th cent. 

   Ray