Antique Vs.New Interesting Discussion
Hi,
I stopped into a local antique store that literally has several thousand antique tools. From screwdrivers to planes to saws to the odd collectable to the sought after. From $1 to $1000 and everything in between. The owner of the tool both was there and spent about 30 minutes with me. He’s strictly a collector and had no qualms admitting he uses none of his vast collection, only some of which was at the booth, best stuff at home and NFS.
At any rate our discussion went towards Stanley Bedrock style planes and I was of the opinion that for the average model the price ceiling will be close to a LieNielsen. The LN being available and arguably a better tool….IMO.
Now his opinion, and mind you he’s been at this for several decades, is he feels the LNs will not hold their value, they are imitations, and in fact “collectors” consider it a breach of etiquite to even mention the “modern masters”. Any talk on my part of certain LNs I have that I feel are better tools than ever available was not appreciatted and he would politley but firmly mention “real collectors are not interested in LN or the like”. Not even as a bench mark of value which I feel is way off. I always compare the cost of a quality new tool with the equal antique. I’d never under any circumsatnces purchase an antique tool that say LN offered that was more than 3/4 the value of an LN. That’s just me. I use the tools as well as collect them. I’d also be hard pressed to purchase an antique I wouldn’t use.
I was intrigued by the attitude. Not condecending in tone but certainly in practice. A very nice fellow that I will do business with in the future. But he’s been invloved in all the antique tool organisations for a long time and while he didn’t officially speak for all of them I certainly got the impression his was the dominant point of view.
Thought some may find it intersting.
N
Replies
Notrix,
Collectors are an interesting bunch. While you or I would look at the profile of a molding plane to see if it was a useful shape, then at the throat and iron to make sure it is usable, a collector will look at the maker's mark to see if it is a rare stamp. While both collectors and users are interested in condition as a function of value, for a collector,rarity trumps condition every time. So of course he isn't going to be impressed by a modern tool, regardless of its quality (unless he wants to start a "new-in-box" collection) they can't be that rare, if they are, we'll just make more.
Just this evening I spent an hour or so with a buddy who is a hardcore collector, mostly axes, but really anything in the tool arena. I'm picking items up, looking at the handsaws which he's picked up because of their interesting handles, or unusual engraved trademarks. Some are so badly worn, mis-sharpened as to be useless as tools, but they are wonderful as collectibles. As he told me, "someone will want to put this one up on a wall in their den".
As an aside, I've been told twice in the same week that prices are depressed in the old tool market right now. Might be a good time to shop for that old Stanley "45" you've been wanting.
Regards,
Ray
In the arena of most collectables, what was once desirable, will be collectable. While it's true that occasionally an obscure item will become that hard to find completion to the collection, by and large, the better quality will win out in the end.
You're antique dealer just knows that he won't live long enough to capitalize on the quality of an LN tool, because he would sell it, and not use it..
Tom
Edited 1/18/2005 12:41 am ET by tms
If you love collecting then get them, but a nice NEW LN or other quality tool is something YOU can use and 'they' can collect it when ya pass on!
You have touched on the mindset difference between a user and a collector. To the collector, it would be poor unthinkable to compare, say, an antique Maillard bed to a modern custom built bed, even though the quality might be comparable. From his point of view, there is no basis for comparison.
A well-tuned Bedrock will make a very servicable plane. With a replacement iron and cap, there is no functional difference from the LN. Remember, the LN planes copy the Bedrock pattern.
However, I find the Brazilian rosewood handles and old iron patina lovely. I have no way of knowing what his prices were, but Ebay is probably the modern pricing standard. A good usable (non-collector) Bedrock usually sells on Ebay for a little over $100, which is quite a bit less than its LN equivalent.
By your post, I suspect his prices were higher than that, probably because he tended toward the rarer models. If you tell him you are looking for a user, he could probably steer you toward less rare types in good condition.
Good luck,
Dan
"However, I find the Brazilian rosewood handles and old iron patina lovely."I agree, There is something about aged iron and wood that can't be bought new. The collector market is interesting. I was most taken a back by the complete disregard of the LN type tools. My point being there is a large part of the market that's like me. I want a Bedrock type 607. LN is about $450 ergo I wouldn't pay more than $300-$350 for the Bedrock no matter what. I don't know enough about the market to have tracked any price fluctuations since LN and the like but just figure it's a gauge for the market. I did notice an auction on ebay a few months/weeks back where the seller had a tool chest made up of completely modern tools. On the last day it was going for just less than the sticker price of all the tools. Of course most serious bidders will wait till the last moment so who knows. But I just checked and it seems most LN auctions stall about 90% of value. But of course you can get one from a reputable dealer so....Big PAST antique tool show in San Diego this week end. Great parkinglot sale! N
Notrix,
"My point being there is a large part of the market that's like me. I want a Bedrock type 607. LN is about $450 ergo I wouldn't pay more than $300-$350 for the Bedrock no matter what. "
That kinda says it all....what collector would want to have a price limit..based on current price of something new.
Is a Thomas Seymour end table of such unique quality and design that nothing is its equal in todays market...should the price of the Seymour be set exclusively by its replacement cost?
So you buddy has to argue the the Bedrock is very special..worthy of collecting from a financial standpoint...otherwise, why is he in the business.
I didn't think LN was a collector tool...
I bought them for good quality, functionality, value based on performance over time, just like the master furniture builders bought the original Stanley's. They didn't buy them because they were collector tools, or had collector potential; they bought them because they did the job, day after day.
That was my perception anyway. I'm not sure what a LN will be worth in 30 or 60 years, and I don't care because either myself or my son will probably be using them instead of selling them.
Do y'all buy your tools based on future collector value potential? I'm just curious.
thnx
scottd.
I used to be a toolmaker. I would select my tools, but the shop owner would buy my tools.
You might note that old hand planes were sold that way also. The shops bought those tools for use by common workmen.
The "high end" modern hand planes are made to sell to "workmen". I doubt you will ever see a shop where the boss buys "high end" modern hand planes for use by the common workmen.
Reminds me of a discussion I had with a collector a few years ago.
I'd purchased a Type 13 No. 3 Bailey at an estate sale for about $35 or so at the time.
The cutter was ok, but the rest of it wasn't where I wanted it.
I stripped the remains of the finish off the knob and tote, sanded lightly and refinished them with oil.
The japanning was at about 60%, I stripped it and re-painted it. I ground it dead flat and polished the sole up to about 600 grit with W/D SC paper.
When I was done, I had a smoothing plane that would take a 2-mil shaving off of pine. (I measured it, because I'm a kind of a nerd.)
My collector friend was horrified, I'd "destroyed" the value of the plane.
I pointed out that the gentleman who'd originally owned it -- a physician with a woody hobby, whom I'd known -- would have taken a shaving or two with it, smiled and shared a drink with me.
He was a grand old guy, I remember him every time I use it.
My feeling is that you just have to be sure what you are looking for when you buy a tool. Do you want a user or a collectible?
I have both in my "gathering". There are a few that I will not use due to their value (very few) and those I will hold on to; the rest of the collectibles I will eventually sell and use the proceeds to upgrade my users to LN or Veritas.
Regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, #### IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Collecting perfectly usable tools and setting them on a shelf to be looked at ought to be against the law.
It's always so interesting to compare the value systems of collectors and woodworkers. One of my collector friend's most enthusiastic comments about a tool was "it's early!" meaning unusually old. For him the older the better. Of course he would have no interest in LN tools.
I have about 3 tools that are purely antiques; the rest are either restored and usable, or still waiting to be restored. That means molding planes that have the correct iron (maybe needing careful resharpening to original profile.) For a small bit of trim, it's faster to use a molding plane than drive 2 hours to a big city to buy a router bit, and then set up the router. (Not faster for a house full of trim.)
There are a lot of old tools around that are antiques in that they are old, but have no real collector's value, as they are not in prime enough shape. Still very usable... I know a guy in Illinois who buys them at sales, then parts them out on EBay for far more than they are worth. Is this sacrilege? He makes a good income doing it. Once he buys it, he owns it. I've reground kinda funky antique carving tools to odd profiles because I needed them for a particular job.
On the other hand, it does seem nice to me to respect your old tools, keep them in good shape, and use the hell out of them! I am reminded of a guy at a motorcycle gathering, doing a workshop on how to keep old bikes running. A guy asked when we could expect the collector value of mid-age bikes to start going back up; the guy responded "Just ride 'em! That's what they were designed to do!"
One of the saddest tool displays I ever saw was in the Smithsonian in DC. They had a few old woodworking tools, nothing special, and all had been badly abused. The abuse was what made them look old to the curators! Not a single well kept tool. Fortunately, I turned away in disgust and was treated to see close up an original Holzapfel ornamental turning lathe in perfect shape. Fortunately nobody had abused that!
Anyway, good luck with your hunt; I bought the bulk of my tools 20-30 years ago, when Record tools were the only halfway decent new tools being made. I got most of mine at yard sales and esp farm auctions. Always hated to see a rich collector show up...
Harvey
What an applicable analogy - very well put.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled