Replies

1. 
   Bonka | Jan 10, 2004 10:45pm | #1

   Do a Google on Steve Schwarzer.  He is a friend of mine and has been a blade smith for many years.  He could give you the scoop.  He will BS you some but he is a wealth of knowledge.  If I can get him on the phone I'll ask him about it.  To have anything made by these types is very expensive.  I have thee of his Wootz (cast Damascus) folders and over 20yrs ago they were $2k each.

   Jerry

2. 
   JMartinsky | Jan 11, 2004 07:14am | #2

   A sword like that would make it easier for me to "motivate" slow paying clients......

   John

1. 
   Bonka | Jan 11, 2004 07:22am | #3

   I have seen swords made of it and you would have to have many well paying clients to purchase one.  They are works of art.  I have a hand made knife collection and just like wood working it take a lot of talent, will power and stick to it to get to a level that demands respect.

   Jerry

1. 
   JMartinsky | Jan 11, 2004 04:06pm | #4

   I'm sure that it does, no disrespect intended. One question, you are referring to the steel as "Damascus" which is in Syria, but the sword that was referred to earlier is Japanese. I am familiar with the technique that the Japanese swordsmiths used of folding the steel multiple times upon itself. Is this what you are calling "Damascus?" If so, why? Did the Arabs pioneer that type of lamination?

   John

   Edited 1/11/2004 8:13:37 AM ET by JMartinsky

1. 
   Bonka | Jan 11, 2004 05:18pm | #5

   I think the process was convergant.  The Japanese did dove tails and so did other areas, e.g., England.  This would be an example.

   My father had some old shot guns whose barrels were Damascus. They were not mussle loaders and he would not shoot modern ammo in them as the would come appart.  Some pipe was also made in this manner.

   Do a google on "Wootz."  This is a cast Damascus.  It is a rediscovered process.  I think a fellow named Job was instumental in finding out how it was done.  It has extremley fine grain.  The cutting edge fractures minutley and stays sharp for a long time.  It was, and my have, to be utilized in the B-1 bomber motor mounts.  I have three knives made of it.  The metal is subtially beautiful.  I have never "used" them due their value.  I have one Damascus folder that looks pretty but is a piece of crap. It will hold an edge for about two cuts on anything and then it is worthless.  It reminds me of those Swiss Army knives made by Victronix (sp).  They have metal in them that can be stamped in production runs.  That should give a hint to the edge holding ability they have.

   Jerry 

1. 
   Elcoholic | Jan 12, 2004 12:28am | #6

   Is this "Wootz" or cast damascus similar to the fused powdered metal alloys like Boye's "Dendredick" steel?  My everyday knife is a large Spyderco/Wayne Goddard 50/50 w/ Micarta scales.  I lust after a damascus folder and the only one I've seen that's even remotely considerable for a user is the Boker.  Is the P.O.S. you're referring to the Boker folder?  I hope not.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

2. 
   Bonka | Jan 12, 2004 03:13am | #7

   Dear John;

   No the POS is not any name brand.  It was made by a world renown knife smith in his early days.  Just with his name on it it is worth a good deal. If you want a Damascus knife look in a Blade magazine and there is one other that I can't remember the name of.  Browz through them and see what interests you.  You can then go to thier Web sites and see what they have to offer.  I have been out of collecting for years and no longer know any makers with the exception of two or three and they have a 2-3 year waiting list and cost big bucks.

   I don't even carry a knife anymore as I seldom have use for one and I would lose it for sure.  If you can find a make that says "bench made" they would tend to be less expensive.  That means they are made by a few people in a shop. Randall is a good example.  This does not take away any quality.  They are just not one off.  The tempering of the blade is done much better that with say Gerber or Buck.  You can get the kind of steel you want usually.  I like D2.  It is almost stainless but not quite.  It sharpens well.  Knifemakers do not use it too much because it will not take a high polish and that is a knife selling point.  These knives would not be of the Damascus type but there are makers out there that do bench Damascus.

   I do not know if Wootz is related to anything that you spoke of.  It was a lost process for many, many years and was "rediscovered" in the early 80's.  I do not know if anyone is still doing it.

   I will try to get ahold Steve S. and see what is out there.  What price range are you talking about?

   Jerry

3. 
   ian | Jan 13, 2004 01:59pm | #10

   John

   Damascus is the term applied in the west to a steel forming process undertaken in Syria from about the 7th century AD after the local metalurgists worked out how to make wortz steel.  Originally I think wootz revered to the shape of the steel ingot.  The wootz process had been discovered in India at least 1000 years before and until about 600AD wootz ingots were only available from India.  Wootz ingots are produced by melting iron in the presence of carbon, the carbon disolves through the iron producing steel.  One of the iron mines near Damascus was "contaminated" with titanium and I think this is a secondary reason for the legendary qualities of Damascus steel.  The primary factor was the repeated forge welding of the steel ingot in the presence of carbon from the fire.  The Damascus pattern results from alternating very thin layers of austinite and marstenite, the two principal forms of steel metal crystal (one is tough and brittle, the other strong and suptle).  A Damascus sword was lighter and stronger than a comparable Northern European sword — as the Crusaders discovered. 

   I understand that true Damascus steel disappeared in the late 1700s arround the time that English and other Euopean steels became available in quantity — evidence that trace elements in the steel alloy were important to the final result.  The metal smiths were still making swords and knives, but the characteristic Damascus surface pattern disappeared.   

   Japannese sword makers independently developed a Damascus type steel making technology.

   As to chisels and plane irons, the latest Japan Woodworker catalogue has a set of what are either Damascus or ink pattern chisels on the cover.  Also back in November I visited Paul Williams, the Aussie guy who makes plane blades from M2 HS steel.  His take is that it is important that the marstenite and austinite grains be oreintated along a blade rather than across it.  So I suppose if the Damascus steel was properly orientated it would make a good chisel.  

   I don't know what modern wootz or cast damascus is.  It suspect it is a metal that looks like the original without the original's full properties.

   Ian

3. 
   jhausch | Jan 12, 2004 02:39pm | #8

   I think I recall seeing a set of damascus type steel chisels in FWW within the last 2 years.  It was a collectors set, Japanese style, and was selling for (from memory here) about $3000.00 US.

   From what I understand, they can be easily sharpened to a razor-like edge, but do not hold that edge for very long.

1. 
   Biscardi | Jan 13, 2004 05:04am | #9

   I have a friend who is a blacksmith. He has a power hammer and from time to time will "damasc" some steel by making multiple folds of a tool steel and a milder steel; it makes a pretty knife. Hardening it is akward as you end up carborizing the milder steel. The hardening programs for the combined steel is different then the seperate steels.

   Samurai swords are differentialy hardened to be hard on the edges and softer in the middle. I don't think that would make a good chisel.

   Frank